Gay Marriage By Any Other Name

Question:

Gay Marriage By Any Other Name means only one thing Perversion.

By whose definition of the word? People should be free to constitute their families any way they see fit. Forcing people into the Judeo-Christian method of marriage, if they should choose to get married, just goes to show that the Untied States gives only lip service to freedom of religion. If we are to be true to the first clause of the First Ammendment then _all_ systems of marriage should be legal.  But our government, and indeed all of the Religious Right, are NOT true to that first clause. When I say all forms of marriage should be legal I don’t just mean gay marriage, I mean ALL forms of marriage.  Polygamy, polyandry, group marriages, line marriages, triads, quadrads, n-ads, etc.  If a Mormon wants to have 27 wives then I say let him.  If a Muslim wants to have all 4 of the wives that Islam allows him then I say let him.  If a group of Yanomami want to have their village marriage then let them.  If a pagan woman wants to keep two husbands then let her. But unfortunately the Radical Religious Right have taken charge, and they are attempting to force all of us to live by _their_ moral standards. The bottom line here is that if you think gay marriage is wrong then don’t get into one. When it comes to perversion, I think the RRR’s perversion of both the legal and democratic systems of the Untied States is about the most perverted thing I have ever seen. AP p.s. Oh, and George.  Please learn how to punctuate.

Response:

<< But he isn’t asking that. He’s asking that it be extended to another group, of which it is not currently extended in the place he apparently resides (sounds like hickstown, or some redneck hillbilly area). I am NOT "asking"…I am DEMANDING! Just as tossing tea into the Boston harbor was a demand, I likewise declare myself a Free Man; and offer this to any good queer-fearing citizen.

The tea into the harbor was a protest against unfair taxation. They destroyed the tea in order to penalize the governors for taxing the citizens, and thusly, raise ‘havoc’ within the upper eschelon. It was not done as a declaration of personal freedom. And I’m demanding it from my city, San Francisco; from my state, California; from my nation, USA; and from my planet: earth.

Umm… I can go along with freedom granted by San Francisco- ’cause you’re all about that thing, but freedom from your state?… um… your state voted in the majority to limit marriage to a union between a man and a woman, so if you want your freedom, then get the citizens of your state to allow it. I’m demanding a nation of our own. I’m demanding secession, to be precise. I’m demanding our own religion, where Jesus is homosexual, and so is His Father. In fact, they are LOVERS! But most of all, I demand:

Oh, I can see the economic statements of the Haute District… and the patent ‘infringement’ lawsuits…. Rainbows, being the representative colors of the homosexual community, and all colors contained within the Rainbow, due to each colors’ interpretation, inclusion and indemnification, are hereby deemed the sole property of the homosexual religion…. vengeance. And that, I shall surely have, in the name of all that’s sacred in the Celtic pantheon of deities of battle, victory, and sweet, sweet revenge.

Hey now!… the Celts worshipped ‘WOOD’ as in trees, not phallic symbols. They also believed in the concept of ‘duality’- the masculine and feminine, anima and animus- one, without the other, was useless. And the last time I say a ‘feminine’ battle was over the last box of Kotex at the local grocery store. I curse all homophobic scum everywhere,

And likewise, I curse all heterophobic scum. It is my U.S. Constitutional right to do so. No matter Chistrian or Muslim, Agnostic or Jew. That they all may be struck down by Gaia’s Own Hand

Am I the only one that has noticed that ‘Global Warming’ has come into being during the same period that homosexual relationships have come into the lime-light? In such a way as could never be blamed on men or man. And pray, just pray, that this doesn’t include YOU! — Let’s secede from those who breed, Make it sin to not waste seed! http://www.gay-bible.org

OK… wait… you profess it to be sin to not waste seed… (read your writing above), but want man to be able to lie with man, and woman to lie with woman….? You know, I’m not against a person’s choice to ‘mate’ with one of the same gender. That is one’s personal choice, and you should have the right to your own destiny. You deserve all the rights of a life-partner. But to call that marriage… is to change the definition of the word. Tomorrow morning, I may as well wake up, get ready for work and call the color of the sky ‘hubcap’. That is what I see with ‘gay marriage’- changing the definition of something everyone has agreed upon into something else. You can’t be happy with something that has the same legal meaning… you have to change the definition of a word….. Even though it obtains the same ending, you’re not happy unless you change the word. So, if you get to have ‘marriage’ for homosexual entities, then I petition that all men who like, and are sexually attracted to woimen to be known, from this point forward, as lesbians. It’s a give and take world. You want marriage for same-sex relationships, then we want lesbianism for ALL, regardless of race or gender, people who want women. Sexual descrimination works both ways.

Response:

Gay Marriage By Any Other Name means only one thing Perversion.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – << But he isn’t asking that. He’s asking that it be extended to another group, of which it is not currently extended in the place he apparently resides (sounds like hickstown, or some redneck hillbilly area). I am NOT "asking"…I am DEMANDING! Just as tossing tea into the Boston harbor was a demand, I likewise declare myself a Free Man; and offer this to any good queer-fearing citizen. The tea into the harbor was a protest against unfair taxation. They destroyed the tea in order to penalize the governors for taxing the citizens, and thusly, raise ‘havoc’ within the upper eschelon. It was not done as a declaration of personal freedom. And I’m demanding it from my city, San Francisco; from my state, California; from my nation, USA; and from my planet: earth. Umm… I can go along with freedom granted by San Francisco- ’cause you’re all about that thing, but freedom from your state?… um… your state voted in the majority to limit marriage to a union between a man and a woman, so if you want your freedom, then get the citizens of your state to allow it. I’m demanding a nation of our own. I’m demanding secession, to be precise. I’m demanding our own religion, where Jesus is homosexual, and so is His Father. In fact, they are LOVERS! But most of all, I demand: Oh, I can see the economic statements of the Haute District… and the patent ‘infringement’ lawsuits…. Rainbows, being the representative colors of the homosexual community, and all colors contained within the Rainbow, due to each colors’ interpretation, inclusion and indemnification, are hereby deemed the sole property of the homosexual religion…. vengeance. And that, I shall surely have, in the name of all that’s sacred in the Celtic pantheon of deities of battle, victory, and sweet, sweet revenge. Hey now!… the Celts worshipped ‘WOOD’ as in trees, not phallic symbols. They also believed in the concept of ‘duality’- the masculine and feminine, anima and animus- one, without the other, was useless. And the last time I say a ‘feminine’ battle was over the last box of Kotex at the local grocery store. I curse all homophobic scum everywhere, And likewise, I curse all heterophobic scum. It is my U.S. Constitutional right to do so. No matter Chistrian or Muslim, Agnostic or Jew. That they all may be struck down by Gaia’s Own Hand Am I the only one that has noticed that ‘Global Warming’ has come into being during the same period that homosexual relationships have come into the lime-light? In such a way as could never be blamed on men or man. And pray, just pray, that this doesn’t include YOU! — Let’s secede from those who breed, Make it sin to not waste seed! http://www.gay-bible.org OK… wait… you profess it to be sin to not waste seed… (read your writing above), but want man to be able to lie with man, and woman to lie with woman….? You know, I’m not against a person’s choice to ‘mate’ with one of the same gender. That is one’s personal choice, and you should have the right to your own destiny. You deserve all the rights of a life-partner. But to call that marriage… is to change the definition of the word. Tomorrow morning, I may as well wake up, get ready for work and call the color of the sky ‘hubcap’. That is what I see with ‘gay marriage’- changing the definition of something everyone has agreed upon into something else. You can’t be happy with something that has the same legal meaning… you have to change the definition of a word….. Even though it obtains the same ending, you’re not happy unless you change the word. So, if you get to have ‘marriage’ for homosexual entities, then I petition that all men who like, and are sexually attracted to woimen to be known, from this point forward, as lesbians. It’s a give and take world. You want marriage for same-sex relationships, then we want lesbianism for ALL, regardless of race or gender, people who want women. Sexual descrimination works both ways.

Response:

<< But he isn’t asking that. He’s asking that it be extended to another group, of which it is not currently extended in the place he apparently resides (sounds like hickstown, or some redneck hillbilly area). I am NOT "asking"…I am DEMANDING! Just as tossing tea into the Boston harbor was a demand, I likewise declare myself a Free Man; and offer this to any good queer-fearing citizen. And I’m demanding it from my city, San Francisco; from my state, California; from my nation, USA; and from my planet: earth. I’m demanding a nation of our own. I’m demanding secession, to be precise. I’m demanding our own religion, where Jesus is homosexual, and so is His Father. In fact, they are LOVERS! But most of all, I demand: vengeance. And that, I shall surely have, in the name of all that’s sacred in the Celtic pantheon of deities of battle, victory, and sweet, sweet revenge. I curse all homophobic scum everywhere, No matter Chistrian or Muslim, Agnostic or Jew. That they all may be struck down by Gaia’s Own Hand In such a way as could never be blamed on men or man. And pray, just pray, that this doesn’t include YOU! — Let’s secede from those who breed, Make it sin to not waste seed! http://www.gay-bible.org

Response:

<< But he isn’t asking that. He’s asking that it be extended to another group, of which it is not currently extended in the place he apparently resides (sounds like hickstown, or some redneck hillbilly area). I am NOT "asking"…I am DEMANDING! Just as tossing tea into the Boston harbor was a demand,

No, that was polluting. And a waste of good tea, as well. I likewise declare myself a Free Man; and offer this to any good queer-fearing citizen.

Why would people fear the odd? And I’m demanding it from my city, San Francisco; from my state, California; from my nation, USA; and from my planet: earth.

I’m afraid you cannot claim ownership of any of those things, however. I’m demanding a nation of our own.

I’m curious as to how you became the mouthpiece for all homosexuals. I’m demanding secession, to be precise. I’m demanding our own religion, where Jesus is homosexual, and so is His Father. In fact, they are LOVERS!

Is that fundamentally different than what you have now? I would much rather you demand a secular, free nation. There isn’t one, you know. And there never has been one.   But most of all, I demand: vengeance. And that, I shall surely have, in the name of all that’s sacred in the Celtic pantheon of deities of battle, victory, and sweet, sweet revenge. I curse all homophobic scum everywhere,

What does it mean to curse them? No matter Chistrian or Muslim, Agnostic or Jew. That they all may be struck down by Gaia’s Own Hand In such a way as could never be blamed on men or man.

I don’t disagree, but why stop with the homophobic Christians, Jews and Muslims? And pray, just pray, that this doesn’t include YOU!

Praying is for religious nutjobs. And as a person who is not a homophobe, your prayer wouldn’t include me.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Gay Marriage By Any Other Name (c) 2004 by Ezekiel J. Krahlin BORING! There’s nothing sadder than a special interest group whining about how some other special interest group receives special rights that they themselves don’t receive. Why don’t you stop parroting your bigoted agenda and promote equality for all, and discard this ridiculous legal concept of a ‘marriage’? If you just left it at "discard this ridiculous legal concept of a ‘marriage’", you’d have a point. Since "marriage" is only available to certain groups, Yes. Only to two consenting adults.

Of different genders, in most places. he’s not being bigoted in asking for it to be extended to *all* groups. But he isn’t asking that. He’s asking that it be extended to another group, of which it is not currently extended in the place he apparently resides (sounds like hickstown, or some redneck hillbilly area).

Since you snipped his post, I wouldn’t know. Personally, I’d rather see the rights "enshrined" in marriage available to anyone who wants to take up the legal contract Even children? Or by anyone, did you really just mean a group of people you had predetermined but were unwilling to properly delineate?

Children can’t enter into legal contracts anyway, on their own behalf, so your attempted sidetrack is irrelevant , and all the other commitments left up to those who feel it necessary to incorporate religious beliefs into it. Religion is a violation of the UN Charter of Rights and freedoms. It is a violation of most countries’ law to incorporate religious beliefs into anything at all.

Since their laws are usually founded in religious belief of one form or another, you’d have a hard time convincing them of that. Jani

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Gay Marriage By Any Other Name (c) 2004 by Ezekiel J. Krahlin BORING! There’s nothing sadder than a special interest group whining about how some other special interest group receives special rights that they themselves don’t receive. Why don’t you stop parroting your bigoted agenda and promote equality for all, and discard this ridiculous legal concept of a ‘marriage’? If you just left it at "discard this ridiculous legal concept of a ‘marriage’", you’d have a point. Since "marriage" is only available to certain groups, Yes. Only to two consenting adults. Of different genders, in most places.

Actually, marriage is not legal at all in most places. he’s not being bigoted in asking for it to be extended to *all* groups. But he isn’t asking that. He’s asking that it be extended to another group, of which it is not currently extended in the place he apparently resides (sounds like hickstown, or some redneck hillbilly area). Since you snipped his post, I wouldn’t know.

You can read the original. Personally, I’d rather see the rights "enshrined" in marriage available to anyone who wants to take up the legal contract Even children? Or by anyone, did you really just mean a group of people you had predetermined but were unwilling to properly delineate? Children can’t enter into legal contracts anyway, on their own behalf, so your attempted sidetrack is irrelevant

Actually, I think the legal marriage age is below the age of majority in many places, which really shoots down that ‘contract’ view. , and all the other commitments left up to those who feel it necessary to incorporate religious beliefs into it. Religion is a violation of the UN Charter of Rights and freedoms. It is a violation of most countries’ law to incorporate religious beliefs into anything at all. Since their laws are usually founded in religious belief of one form or another, you’d have a hard time convincing them of that.

Why should I care about convincing them? They’re criminals.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Gay Marriage By Any Other Name (c) 2004 by Ezekiel J. Krahlin BORING! There’s nothing sadder than a special interest group whining about how some other special interest group receives special rights that they themselves don’t receive. Why don’t you stop parroting your bigoted agenda and promote equality for all, and discard this ridiculous legal concept of a ‘marriage’? If you just left it at "discard this ridiculous legal concept of a ‘marriage’", you’d have a point. Since "marriage" is only available to certain groups,

Yes. Only to two consenting adults. he’s not being bigoted in asking for it to be extended to *all* groups.

But he isn’t asking that. He’s asking that it be extended to another group, of which it is not currently extended in the place he apparently resides (sounds like hickstown, or some redneck hillbilly area). Personally, I’d rather see the rights "enshrined" in marriage available to anyone who wants to take up the legal contract

Even children? Or by anyone, did you really just mean a group of people you had predetermined but were unwilling to properly delineate? , and all the other commitments left up to those who feel it necessary to incorporate religious beliefs into it.

Religion is a violation of the UN Charter of Rights and freedoms. It is a violation of most countries’ law to incorporate religious beliefs into anything at all.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Gay Marriage By Any Other Name (c) 2004 by Ezekiel J. Krahlin BORING! There’s nothing sadder than a special interest group whining about how  some other special interest group receives special rights that they  themselves don’t receive.  Why don’t you stop parroting your bigoted agenda and promote equality for  all, and discard this ridiculous legal concept of a ‘marriage’? If you just left it at "discard this ridiculous legal concept of a ‘marriage’", you’d have a point. Since "marriage" is only available to certain groups, Yes. Only to two consenting adults. he’s not being bigoted in asking for it to be extended to *all* groups. But he isn’t asking that. He’s asking that it be extended to another group, of which it is not currently extended in the place he apparently  resides (sounds like hickstown, or some redneck hillbilly area). Personally, I’d rather see the rights "enshrined" in marriage available to anyone who wants to take up  the legal contract Even children? Or by anyone, did you really just mean a group of people  you had predetermined but were unwilling to properly delineate? , and all the other commitments left up to those who feel it necessary to incorporate religious beliefs into it. Religion is a violation of the UN Charter of Rights and freedoms. It is  a violation of most countries’ law to incorporate religious beliefs into  anything at all.

Here’s what Article 18 of UN’s Universal Declaration of Human Rights actually says: "Everyone has the right to freedom of thought, conscience and religion; this right includes freedom to change his religion or belief, and freedom, either alone or in community with others and in public or private, to manifest his religion or belief in teaching, practice, worship and observance." How do you get "religion is a violation of the UN Charter" out of that??? Nevermore ("Everyone" obviously includes cats)

Response:

Gay Marriage By Any Other Name (c) 2004 by Ezekiel J. Krahlin We the people for a sane world, officially declare 100% support for gay marriage, as a civil right and a birthright. Those religious institutions that condemn such partnerships are in flagrant violation of the US Constitution’s first amendment, which states: "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion." Furthermore, said institutions often encourage attitudes of hatred and promotion of violence against sexual minorities in many other ways, and have a long history of such. And these "godly" organizations remain, as they have for untold centuries, the main and sole cause of virulent homophobia. America would not tolerate such ugly behavior by a religous group towards any other minority, in our modern day. And it is one important tenet of so-called activist judges, to protect a minority from the tyranny of the majority.  Especially when such a minority is more universally hated than any other; as are homosexuals, transexuals and bisexuals. In fact, as oppressed as many minorities remain, most of them still cling to backward and hateful notions against even their own non-heterosexual minorities. The issue of gay marriage has become a glaring example of dangers that arise when church matters are not kept separate from those of the state. Indeed, it has become The Great Test Of Today’s America regarding the issue of individual rights versus majority prejudice. And if we keep moving in that sorry direction much longer, we are likely to see a full-blown holocaust against these long-suffering people. But progressives of all stripes must also share considerable shame, for sometimes participating in homophobic actions (at worst), or looking the other way too often (at best). To rectify this, we stand with other responsible liberals and moderates, who take up the cause of gay equality starting with marriage, in brave and aggressive manners. Even some churches are finally joining in, thus answering to their savior’s message of compassion. I hope this will mark a sea-change in attitude regarding our sexual minorities. We stand with good folks like Assemblymember Mark Leno, with good organizations like Marriage Equality California, and with good media venues like Air America Radio…and demand an apology from politicians such as Senator Diane Feinstein, for suggesting that gay marriage is responsible for contributing to the failure of our recent election. We decry even Senator John Kerry, for stating in a presidential debate that he is Catholic and against gay marriage. And we also condemn former president William Clinton, for his signing of the Defense of Marrage Act and the destructive policy coined Don’t Ask Don’t Tell. Lest we forget: we also condemn as queer turncoats those gay politicians like Barnie Frank, who likewise blame gay marriage for the failure of Kerry to win the presidency. We also acknowledge that none of these four examples are Republicans; in fact they are all regarded as staunch Democrats. (Centrists have proven themselves to be Republican wolves in Donkey hide.) All truly progressive people will not tolerate any more homophobia from our own liberal groups and representatives, and must therefore, if need be, not just condemn but separate ourselves from those who continue to harbor anti-gay attitudes. We must be as clear, as strong, and as unwavering regarding gay marriage, as we have been these many years against racism, misogyny, child abuse, and preemptive declarations of war. For it has become all too obvious that condemnation of gay marriage is a red herring that serves to detract us from the real agenda: removal of all rights by LGBTs to establish them as second-class citizens in perpetuity. And then, the elimination of all rights for every other citizen, except for a remnant of the power elite. In short: Marriage by any other name just doesn’t cut it. Most sincerely, Ezekiel J. Krahlin Queer Voice in the Oscar-Wilderness Permission granted by author for anyone to distribute this writing free of charge (including translation into any language)…under condition that no profit is made therefrom, and that it remain intact and complete, including title and credit to the original author. Ezekiel J. Krahlin http://www.gay-bible.org/

Response:

Gay Marriage By Any Other Name (c) 2004 by Ezekiel J. Krahlin BORING! There’s nothing sadder than a special interest group whining about how some other special interest group receives special rights that they themselves don’t receive. Why don’t you stop parroting your bigoted agenda and promote equality for all, and discard this ridiculous legal concept of a ‘marriage’?

If you just left it at "discard this ridiculous legal concept of a ‘marriage’", you’d have a point. Since "marriage" is only available to certain groups, he’s not being bigoted in asking for it to be extended to *all* groups. Personally, I’d rather see the rights "enshrined" in marriage available to anyone who wants to take up the legal contract, and all the other commitments left up to those who feel it necessary to incorporate religious beliefs into it. Jani

Response:

I”ve been following the gay marriage debate and have these observations: 1.  The whole debate started because people felt that because someone was gay that someone else had the right to smash them over the head with a crow bar.    The whole gay rights movement started out by saying no you don’t havve the right kill someone becuause the "look" gay. 2.  I noticed that where Massachusetts has gay marriage Massachusetts also has the lowest divorce rate in the country.   Imagine that the lowest divorce rate is in a blue state, not a red state. 3.  People in the US are homophobic. Kids in school would call other males gay if they short, don’t have a "low" voice, or are not  good at sports. So they throw the ultimate inslut at these guys, "he is gay." 4. I’m happily married to my wife.  We’ve been married sixteen years. Even if gay marriage continues it’s no skin of my teeth, i’m still happily married. 5.  People keep sayintg gay marrigae threatens tradional marriage between men and women.  Seems to me the divrorce rate  of 50%+  threatens marriage more than gay marriage does.

Response:

Gay Marriage By Any Other Name (c) 2004 by Ezekiel J. Krahlin

BORING! There’s nothing sadder than a special interest group whining about how some other special interest group receives special rights that they themselves don’t receive. Why don’t you stop parroting your bigoted agenda and promote equality for all, and discard this ridiculous legal concept of a ‘marriage’?

Response:

Unlimited Sexual License: The Atheist Idea Of Freedom

Question:

[snip] Can anything bring us to our senses? The evangelical Christians present some hope. Although their numbers are relatively modest, their religion is solid and their high vision of America conforms with what the earliest settlers and the Founding Fathers had in mind.

Funny, that, seeing that many of the FF were openly contemptuous wrt Christianity. — "Christians, it is needless to say, utterly detest each other.  They slander each other constantly with the vilest forms of abuse and cannot come to any sort of agreement in their teachings.  Each sect brands its own, fills the head of its own with deceitful nonsense, and makes perfect little pigs of those it wins over to its side." – Celsus On the True Doctrine, translated by R. Joseph Hoffman, Oxford University Press, 1987 (random sig, produced by SigChanger) rukbat at verizon dot net

Response:

Free At Last Thomas C. Reeves Mr. Reeves is the author of A Question of Character: A Life of John F. Kennedy. His latest book is America’s Bishop: The Life and Times of Fulton J. Sheen (Encounter, 2001). He’s a Senior Fellow of the Wisconsin Policy Research Institute. Sunday, August 29, 2004

When I married my present wife, I received a limited sexual license. Now it seems to have expired. — Freedom of thought entails no "Intellectual Property".

Response:

I guess this explains why Catholic priests have a rate of HIV infection three times higher than the general public in the US.

Response:

[snip] Can anything bring us to our senses? The evangelical Christians present some hope. Although their numbers are relatively modest, their religion is solid and their high vision of America conforms with what the earliest settlers and the Founding Fathers had in mind.

Hmm. The out of wedlock pregnancy rate was not insignificant among our early settlers. But, setting that aside for the moment; the answer is ‘yes’. Evangelical Christians can do something to counter this trend. Don’t have sex. In fact, in order to make up for the increasing amount of sex that the rest of us are having, don’t even have it within the institution of marriage. In the final analysis, it’ll all average out just fine. — "Si hoc legere scis nimium eruditionis habes." (If you can read this, you’re overeducated.)

Response:

@stopspam.net: You need a *license* to have sex???  When did this law pass?

    Just give the control freaks in the GOP time – pretty soon you will need their approval to do ANYTHING.    Mitchell Holman   "There ought to be limits to freedom."  George Bush, while trying to shut down  a website doing a parody of him, 1999.

Response:

You need a *license* to have sex???  When did this law pass?

Duh!  How else would the Government be able to tax it? — "By this logic, teaching anti-discrimination against ethnic minorities is  going to turn white people black."      –OrangeSFO on rec.gambling.poker

Response:

You need a *license* to have sex???  When did this law pass?

Mines expired from lack of use!  :(

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Free At Last Thomas C. Reeves Mr. Reeves is the author of A Question of Character: A Life of John F. Kennedy. His latest book is America’s Bishop: The Life and Times of Fulton J. Sheen (Encounter, 2001). He’s a Senior Fellow of the Wisconsin Policy Research Institute. Sunday, August 29, 2004 In Great Britain, the rates of sexually transmitted infections rose again last year. The number of infections&#8212;708,083&#8212;was 4% higher than in 2002. This data does not include HIV infections, also soaring in number. Throughout Europe, since the mid-1990s, sexually transmitted diseases have been on the rise. The data, it seems clear, reflect something that goes beyond medicine. The churches in Europe are largely dead, and most intellectuals, politicians, and judges are militant secularists. Free at last from almost all moral restrictions, the majority of Europeans are doing as they please. And this inevitably means casual sex. The message most often encountered in modern life in the West is sexual license. The media, which dominate our lives, are the major transmitters of this call for the abandonment of all traditional moral strictures and the plunge into hedonism and narcissism. The Left’s response to sexual disease: Use condoms. Have your fun but do it responsibly. The Right’s response: Don’t do it. That’s a message very few want to hear any more. "Why not?" is the question without an appealing answer in our time. While the United States remains the most Christian nation in the West, it too is succumbing to the siren call. Our television commercials, for example, have sent our young people into bars to meet one another for the purpose of sex.

How dare they? Our teachers and professors snicker at "outdated" moral teaching and ban Christian study and prayer. Judges have seen to it that we can have sex education in the schools but not religious instruction, flavored condoms but not the New Testament.

That’s because the New Testament only comes in Original flavor, not grape. The Pfizer company runs vulgar full-page newspaper and television ads urging men of all ages to buy Viagra, wear condoms, and have fun, presumably with as many women (or men) as possible.

Have fun? What’s the world coming to? Living together without marriage is now routine in this country. And so is having children out of wedlock. Why not? We are free at last. The porn industry makes more than $15 billion a year&#8212;more than major league, football, baseball, and basketball combined. Americans spend about half a billion dollars each year on X-rated pay-for-view movies alone, and the profits are soaring. Any child can obtain pornography by pressing a few keys on a computer. It is modern and "cool" to indulge in everything sexual. The devastating impact of this recklessness on the individual’s personal happiness and marriage, not to mention the soul and the eternal consequences of sin, goes largely unheeded in elite circles.

Damn, those elitists are flushing America down the tubes. The Left, in its fury to honor all sexual activity and wreck the traditional family, is brimming over with self-confidence these days. All that remains to take care of are a few pockets of Red State "right-wing extremists." Victory in the presidential election should carry the day, as it will lead to a "progressive" Supreme Court eager to knock out the last barriers to true individual freedom.

Those last barriers are a bitch! Can anything bring us to our senses?

Probably. The evangelical Christians present some hope. Although their numbers are relatively modest, their religion is solid and their high vision of America conforms with what the earliest settlers and the Founding Fathers had in mind. The Catholic Church, with its 65 million members, could be a major force for moral renewal, but its top clergy are unwilling, for a variety of reasons, to use their authority. The Republican Party could do much to alter the slide into decadence if it could concentrate more on its moral proclamations and less on cheap labor and tax advantages for the wealthy. Inspired leaders of the resistance are in short supply everywhere.

Raise the salary. Unless we in the West can find ways to come out of our moral stupor, we face great troubles ahead. After Americans have aborted, say, 100 million babies, and the divorce rate is 85%, and the prisons and mental hospitals are overflowing, and AIDS and related diseases have ravaged our population, what will we have to offer ourselves or the rest of the world beyond decay? Tooth decay. When we face our zealous enemies on the battlefield, we will invite them to an orgy. And we will be helpless. Ignorance of history always has consequences.

Hey dudes, orgy over this way! Rat-a-tat-tat. Kaboom! — Freedom of thought entails no "Intellectual Property".

Response:

You need a *license* to have sex???  When did this law pass? — MarkA (still caught in the maze of twisty little passages, all different)

Response:

You need a *license* to have sex???  When did this law pass?

Send me USD 50, and you’ll get all the documentation for a restricted licence. GBP 750 for an unrestricted licence. I must however point out that the biometric measures and photographs required may have a certain resale value which you may be able to offset against the initial cost. — "Do Unto Others As You Would Have Them Do Unto You." – Attrib: Pauline Reage. Inexpensive VHS & other video to CD/DVD conversion? See: <http://www.Video2CD.com. 35.00 gets your video on DVD. all posts to this email address are automatically deleted without being read. ** atheist poster child #1 ** #442.

Response:

While the United States remains the most Christian nation in the West, it too is succumbing to the siren call. Our television commercials, for example, have sent our young people into bars to meet one another for the purpose of sex. Our teachers and professors snicker at "outdated" moral teaching and ban Christian study and prayer. Judges have seen to it that we can have sex education in the schools but not religious instruction, flavored condoms but not the New Testament. The Pfizer company runs vulgar full-page newspaper and television ads urging men of all ages to buy Viagra, wear condoms, and have fun, presumably with as many women (or men) as possible.

You say that like it’s a bad thing. Must suck to be you.

Response:

Free At Last Thomas C. Reeves

Piss off Spammer, and pander your lies to someone that will believe your shit. <plonk — -Donald in Austin AA #2104 Apatriot #22 Atheist FF/EMT ….and ordained minister Stork pin recipient: May 1, 2003 -Madelyn

Response:

Free At Last Thomas C. Reeves Mr. Reeves is the author of A Question of Character: A Life of John F. Kennedy. His latest book is America’s Bishop: The Life and Times of Fulton J. Sheen (Encounter, 2001). He’s a Senior Fellow of the Wisconsin Policy Research Institute. Sunday, August 29, 2004 In Great Britain, the rates of sexually transmitted infections rose again last year. The number of infections

My attorney got served the divorce papers today…

Question:

Let the games begin.  :’( The good thing was when my atty. called me, I was at an AA meeting.  As soon as the meeting was over, all the ladies gathered around me for hugs, pep talks, "fuck hims", etc.

NOOOOOOOO, DON’T FUCK HIM !  let’m fuck hisself !  (i think i might be a tad late on that’n) I knew this day was coming.

celebrate, good times….. C’MON !  (it’s yer disco moment, chile !) In fact, it’s taken so damn long, I was getting edgy.

thank GOD ya didn’t rent’ah gun’n buy’ah bullet… But when I got the call, I felt like WHAMMO in my heart and stomach. And then there’s the nice little "coincidence" that he happens to be out of town.  `Said he couldn’t get a flight home today so he "had" to spend the night in San Francisco.

ohhhhhhhhhhh boy. yeah, them flights from SF are hard ta come by. <yawn I’m nauseous, scared and terribly saddened that this is really happening.

NOOOOOOOOOO, it’s almost halloween.. getchurself ah plaid lil pleated skirt’n button-up white starched shirt with’ah lil collar, some saddle oxfords’n some bobby sox’n put yer hair’n pigtails and let’m blow in tha wind while yer trippin’ tha light, fandango…’n doin’ cartwheels cross tha floor. tha crowd?  they’ll cheer for more… and ya gotta drink grape soda so her home free in that daparkmunt !  AND KNOW YER ABC’S !, lil gurl <wink (you’ll be’ah HIT !)  <<<<trust belle I fully understand that I am responsible for half of the troubles, but if it was worth it to him, I’d be worth it to him…

yer where yer s’posed ta be, and next year, this time?  tell me if i’m wrong. LIVE IT THA FUCK UP, ya rock da house, yanno ! "How disappointment tracks the steps of hope…"

…and how hope (and faith) can erase those tracks. ::cobblestone mountain, it was made by hand with tha magic’n tha mortar of a cobblestone man:: (i heard it from a man with cobblestone eyes, it was his word to tha wise) ~tanya !!!

Response:

Dear Laurie, I am sending you vibes of peace and strength.  I am sorry that this is happening but I know you will get through it.  Please continue to take care of yourself. Vicki

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Let the games begin.  :’( The good thing was when my atty. called me, I was at an AA meeting.  As soon as the meeting was over, all the ladies gathered around me for hugs, pep talks, "fuck hims", etc. I knew this day was coming.  In fact, it’s taken so damn long, I was getting edgy.  But when I got the call, I felt like WHAMMO in my heart and stomach. And then there’s the nice little "coincidence" that he happens to be out of town.  `Said he couldn’t get a flight home today so he "had" to spend the night in San Francisco. I’m nauseous, scared and terribly saddened that this is really happening. I fully understand that I am responsible for half of the troubles, but if it was worth it to him, I’d be worth it to him…. —

The Evil New Wife

Question:

"cj503" <cj50…@yahoo.com> wrote in message

news:d071001bcf7391d92c728687b14683fc@localhost.talkaboutsupport.com… > It’s me again. I understand what your saying but the thing is I’m > currently > a stay at home mom (raising 2 step children with new hubby) and I’m not > planning on going back to work for atleast another 2 years (in school now > for degree). My concern is that if he thinks he can break one rule in the > divorce papers why won’t he think he can break another. Our son doesn’t > get to see his dad that often and I want my ex to spend time with him. Our > son needs his dad, parenting time to me is: the parent(s) spend time with > their chid, not just the stepmom while dads at work. My ex seems more > concerned with his job than his son and I do have it in my divorce papers > that my ex will have him on only days that he doesn’t work. It just > crushes me to my sons dad make his work a priority rather than his son.

My ex organises lots of his own activities, like golf, tennis, and squash, on days when the children are at his house (they live half the week with me and half with him).  It still puzzles me, that he’d choose to use the little time he has with them for other things.  The thing is I wouldn’t dream of telling him how to conduct his relationship with his children.  It’s way outside my circle of control.  Nor would I dream of trying to stop him having equal access, because all the research says that children from divorced homes do better if they are involved with both parents.  Let it go.  You are trying to control someone else’s life.  This isn’t something you get to choose.  Just be what you think a parent ought to be and your child will almost certainly see things and all the people involved for what they are in the fullness of time. Wendy

Response:

This is a simple one.  Grab your divorce papers and go talk to a lawyer. Work out a payment plan with him/her if you can’t afford it.  If you can find a girl lawyer, do it – girl lawyers do more psychological damage to asshole ex-husbands than guy lawyers do.  After the judge has ruled in your favor, file a civil suit to recover the attorney fees. Good Luck. Buster Van Buren www.dearbuster.com www.dearbuster.blogspot.com bus…@dearbuster.com "cj503" <cj50…@yahoo.com> wrote in message

news:603509b7b6efdd0601198c7e44dfb374@localhost.talkaboutsupport.com… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Three years ago I got a divorce from husband because he was having an > affair and we have a 3 1/2 yearold son together. My divorce was very hard, > I had to leave nothing and start all over. I kept our son pretty much > through the whole divorce, my ex would come and get his son on occasion to > only drop him off at my mothers house an hour later. When my ex did come > and get our son I had to provide him with food and diapers or else he said > he wouldn’t feed or change him. Now mind you at the time I only made 8$ an > hour and paying for daycare and I wasn’t getting any child support. > Our divorce was finally over and our divorce papers were made to be very > strict because of all the problems I had with him. Well two years ago I > found out that my ex was going to work at the firestation for 24 hours and > leaving my son with his girlfriend (the one he was cheating on me with). I > got very upset because he was breaking the rules of the divorce papers. He > said that he would never do it again and stupid me I belived him. > A year ago my ex got married to his girlfriend and now he is doing it > again. He goes to work for 24 hours and leaves our son with his > girlfriend. It’s hard for me to catch him doing this because his > fire-fighter buddies cover for him. And when I do catch him he says that > his new wife is our sons new mother so it’s just the same as dropping our > son off with me. I’ve asked not to do it anymore but he says the divorce > papers are more like guidlines than rule and that when you read them it’s > very gray and that he will continue to do it. Our son only see’s his dad > about 10 days a month but his dad chooses to work half thoes days. > As far as the new wife she is just as bad. Our son is in a speech program > because  he is not talking very well and my ex is supposed to drop him off > and pick him up. But instead he goes to work and lets the new wife drop > him off. > Well I caught him on friday at work when he was supposed to be spending > time with his son and he flipped out on me and said that I would never be > able to do anything about it and to just live with it. Next thing I know > his wife calls me and starts to yell at me and tell me how much of a bad > mother I am and then she likens me to crack ho (she’s 23 and never had > kids). Then she tells me that her and her husband can do what ever they > want with our son. > I just don’t know what to do? I feel like they have more control of the > situation than I do and he’s the one not following the divorce papers. > Need help! Advice Pls! > Living in Arizona

Response:

>little-itty-bitty-titty trolls?  Me and Melissa?  All snickering aside, >anyone who uses that epithet loses any right to claim they are "non-sexist".

I missed that one.  Ugh.  Did catch girl lawyer though. Love, Melissa "This virtual sand tastes just like real sand." -Line from one of the cartoons SS watches.

Response:

The Watsons wrote in news:_UY1d.159838$4o.109719@fed1read01: – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> "Buster Van Buren" <bus…@dearbuster.com> wrote in message > news:2GS1d.195921$Fg5.18442@attbi_s53… >> You know…I get ragged on plenty, and I’ve got a pretty thick skin, >> but you would think that when I take the time to honestly answer >> someone’s question with legitimate non-sexist advice, you would think >> that little itty-bitty-titty trolls wouldn’t be so quick to take a >> jab.  My job is to dispense advice.  My goal is to educate and help >> people…even people I don’t particularly like or care about.  Had I >> signed this post with "Abigail Van Buren" or "Dear Abby", would you >> have instead answered with a "Right On, Sister!"?  (And by the way, >> Buster happens to be my real name – and I like it – so kiss my ass.) >> 6.  The end result?  More people possibly helped or amused or made >> aware that they aren’t alone with their problems and issues. >> So, in conclusion…I’ll continue trying to help when someone asks >> for it. I’ll give them advice that I think is right – even if others >> think I’m wrong.  I’ll continue signing all my posts with my websites >> and email address – and when my syndicated column (which is already >> being published in six newspapers across the U.S.), eventually gets >> around to your local news stand – feel free to write in to the Editor >> and tell him what an asshole I am….It will be good publicity for me >> and my growing group of regular readers. > You’re not interested in dispencing advice, you’re interested in what > looks pretty in your column, and I hope you don’t think your column > alone qualifies you enough to give advice. > Jess

Yeah, I see he’s all over the groups I read regularly.  It doesn’t appear he has any experience in the subject matter, but feels he is expert enough to give advice.   Something he should remember, is those other advice columnists didn’t rely simply on themselves for answers but routinely went to experts in whatever field the question arises from to get answers that are truly helpful to the questioner.   This guy seems to have an over-inflated ego that seems to think he knows it all.  His condescending attitude toward anyone who *dares* question his advice doesn

Women are More Shallow Than Men

Question:

Alvin wrote: > When you compare the two sexes, men are at an extreme disadvantage > when it comes to single life and dating.  The main problem is that > women are more shallow than men.  Yes, the whole rhetoric that she > just wants a man with a good heart can be tossed out the window. > And it is only getting worse.  I chat online, and it seems like more > women message me immediately asking if I have a pic. > Gotta pic?  Yea, and I’m fucking ugly, bitch.  Still want one?

Moot point. Most guys would ask for a pic too. I chat online and it’s nice to see who you are talking to. And regardless of sex,  physical attraction is one of the first things that draws you in to see if theres more. > Of course, women refuse to view themselves as shallow and cold.  They > will still say that that the inside is what counts, personality, > intelligence.  Yet, if you polled most women, they would admit that > physical attraction is a must.

Some women are shallow and cold,,just as some of us guys. Also if you polled most guys they would say the same thing, physical attraction is a must. > The sad fact is that men are not near as shallow when it comes to > physical requirements.   A woman will reject a man immediately for the > most minor physical flaw, yet I don’t know a guy that would turn down > a date with a nice looking lady because say, she had small sized > breasts.   I believe that most men find the majority of women out > there attractive.  Even the plain jane girl out there is attractive. > You just don’t hear of many girls becoming old maids because they are > not asked out.  Heck, even girls with disabilities probably get more > dates than the average joe.

Women look at men differently than men look at women,,us guys are more sexually driven, its our nature. > Men are on the opposite end of the spectrum.   If physical attraction > is a must, what do women consider physically attractive?  This > question will always remain a great mystery because every single women > on the planet has a varying degree of attraction factors.   Therefore, > most guys will face some possibility of rejection with  woman that > they approach.  You may be a good looking dude, but you do not possess > her own unique attraction factors. And no matter how hard you try on > the date, she will reward you with indifference, or "you’re a nice > guy".  Or even worse, you need a combination of factors.    For > example, I’m a hairy chested guy.  Some women will regard that trait > as disgusting..  I’ve had women demand that I shave myself if I go > with them.  Screw you.  I’m not altering my physical being to satisfy > your attraction factor.  On the other hand,  there are women that find > my hair chest to be a turn on.

Everyone is different,,some like this and others like that. If the person in question doesn’t like you for whatever reason ,,then why pursue the matter. You can’t make someone want you. > No matter how you look, there is truly someone out there for everyone. >  Some girl is attracted to your own special features.  The problem is > the chances are slim that you will across paths with a girl that > desires your combination of factors. There are just so many variables > involved.

One of the main factors is being shy and not meeting the amounts of women that non-shy guys meet. Non-shy guys get shot down way more than we do just cause of the volume of women that they meet, and yes they have more success due to the same. You might as well move on if you don’t have that right combo > of factors.  I even know some women that are turned off by body > builders and the Alpha types.  There is just no way of winning.  Only > a lucky roll.

Moving on is good,,why waste time. To me its not as much as do I have what she wants,,its does she have what I want. FiRe

Response:

"Alvin" <alvinstraigh…@hotmail.com> wrote in message

news:d2ec46.0408031431.7099358d@posting.google.com… > No matter how you look, there is truly someone out there for everyone. >  Some girl is attracted to your own special features.  The problem is > the chances are slim that you will across paths with a girl that > desires your combination of factors. There are just so many variables > involved. You might as well move on if you don’t have that right combo > of factors.

Here’s where I disagree with you. I believe that for every man, there are X number of women that he would hit it off amazingly well with. The value of X varies from man to man; for some it’s a few dozen, for most it’s five or six, and for some (Aspergers men, the disabled, the morbidly obese, self-destructive starving artists with long rap sheets and short penises) it’s between zero and two.

Response:

Lash Rambo <lra…@obmarl.com> wrote in message <news:Xns953AD07F8ED55lramboobmarlcom@68.12.19.6>… > alvinstraigh…@hotmail.com (Alvin) wrote in > news:d2ec46.0408031431.7099358d@posting.google.com: > <snip> > Assume for the sake of argument that you’re right, and women are shallower > than men.  Then what?  Where do you go from there?  What do you get out of > the deal?  How is the world a better place as a result of this observation?

Well for one, women need to be taught better.  They grow up being daddy’s little girl, his princess, no man is too good for my baby, and their mom is telling them not to settle.  They go into college feeling like freaking Cinderella deserving of gorgeous Prince Charming while learning that men can easily be manipulated with the power of sex. Just look at the wedding section in the newspaper.  I usually see young very attractive couples.  Women go for the bad boy hotties with the belief that they can tame them once they are married.  As a result, the divorce rate is souring, and when a woman hits her late 30s with stretch marks, she learns that physical attraction does not amount to much.

Response:

alvinstraigh…@hotmail.com (Alvin) wrote in news:d2ec46.0408031431.7099358d@posting.google.com: > When you compare the two sexes, men are at an extreme disadvantage > when it comes to single life and dating.  The main problem is that > women are more shallow than men.  Yes, the whole rhetoric that she > just wants a man with a good heart can be tossed out the window.   > And it is only getting worse.  I chat online, and it seems like more > women message me immediately asking if I have a pic. > Gotta pic?  Yea, and I’m fucking ugly, bitch.  Still want one? > — clip —

Women always will make the choice who they mate with.  You have to live with that.  That is just the way it is.  Men have the power of accepting their offer or not. If you wish to read more about this check the book: "Nice Guys And Players: Becoming the Man Women Want" by Rom Wills.

Response:

alvinstraigh…@hotmail.com (Alvin) wrote in news:d2ec46.0408040624.2d3d1c38@posting.google.com: > Well for one, women need to be taught better.  

Oh for fuck’s sake just shut the hell up.  For the sake of fuck.  I don’t know what that means.

Response:

Eerieness of the Short-Distance Rodent wrote: > alvinstraigh…@hotmail.com (Alvin) wrote in > news:d2ec46.0408040624.2d3d1c38@posting.google.com: >>Well for one, women need to be taught better.   > Oh for fuck’s sake just shut the hell up.  For the sake of fuck.  I don’t > know what that means.

Its Federation of Undesirable and Cuckolded Knights. -M

Response:

"Eerieness of the Short-Distance Rodent" <a…@at.org> wrote in news:Xns953B4E083339Efkjdlkvjcxoiuarepoij@68.6.19.6: > alvinstraigh…@hotmail.com (Alvin) wrote in > news:d2ec46.0408040624.2d3d1c38@posting.google.com: >> Well for one, women need to be taught better.   > Oh for fuck’s sake just shut the hell up.  For the sake of fuck.  I > don’t know what that means.

Also good: For the love of FUCK!

Response:

alvinstraigh…@hotmail.com (Alvin) wrote in message

<news:d2ec46.0408040624.2d3d1c38@posting.google.com>… ** Lash Rambo ** >> Assume for the sake of argument that you’re right, >> and women are shallower than men. Then what?  Where >> do you go from there?  What do you get out of the deal? >> How is the world a better place as a result of this observation?

** Alvin ** > Well for one, women need to be taught better. They grow up being > daddy’s little girl, his princess, no man is too good for my baby,

<snip rest> You’re pulling your punch with this last part. For a stronger rant you want to say "no man is good enough for my baby". Here’s an old post of mine that might be useful for your future rants. ——————————————————————— Message-ID: dd95baf2.0302132035.4a615da0@posting.google.com From:       Virgo Cluster (gamma_n…@yahoo.com) Subject:    Re: i need a break Newsgroups: alt.support.shyness Date:       2003-02-13 20:35:30 PST Honey Bunny 0…@webtv.net (Honey B.) wrote in message <news:2037-3E4BDFF2-194@storefull-2317.public.lawson.webtv.net>… > this is pretty much a rant that ive posted.  i dont really > expect anyone to respond favorably to it but i felt like > posting it and so i did.

I’m sorry, but you need to work on your rants! This rant barely rates one screaming William head out of five. http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=Xns931AD885962E4willi…@206.172.150.14 I suppose I could google up some really good rants by meg, Kitz, William, Lisa, and yes, even ness, that you could learn from, but because I value my health I’ll refer you to these instead —-> 1womanscyberpersona (2000-12-02) http://groups.google.com/groups?th=1b1edf92f40f6220 Dave (2002-02-21) http://groups.google.com/groups?th=bd98e5e08ef52acb Sandra (2000-08-18) http://groups.google.com/groups?th=4458f848de48fbc6 Darkfalz (2002-08-22) [A sample from the grandmaster himself!] http://groups.google.com/groups?th=4bf47bb8c1c5ba3f ——————————————————————— Virgo Cluster   "[The UK's 10 Greatest Eurovision Song Contest Flops] (#2)    "The Bad Old Days", by Co-co — 11′th in Paris, 1978." << Karl Shaw, "The Mammoth Book of Tasteless    Lists", Carroll & Graf Publishers, 1998, p. 162 >>

Response:

alvinstraigh…@hotmail.com (Alvin) wrote in news:d2ec46.0408040624.2d3d1c38@posting.google.com: – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Lash Rambo <lra…@obmarl.com> wrote in message > <news:Xns953AD07F8ED55lramboobmarlcom@68.12.19.6>… >> alvinstraigh…@hotmail.com (Alvin) wrote in >> news:d2ec46.0408031431.7099358d@posting.google.com: >> <snip> >> Assume for the sake of argument that you’re right, and women are >> shallower than men.  Then what?  Where do you go from there?  What do >> you get out of the deal?  How is the world a better place as a result >> of this observation? > Well for one, women need to be taught better.  They grow up being > daddy’s little girl, his princess, no man is too good for my baby, and > their mom is telling them not to settle.  They go into college feeling > like freaking Cinderella deserving of gorgeous Prince Charming while > learning that men can easily be manipulated with the power of sex.

What do you propose as an alternative "teaching?"  Perhaps more importantly, how do you propose parents get their children to actually listen to them?  :) Personally, I haven’t noticed those Cinderella fantasies a problem in most college women.  In particular, college women seemed far more likely to date more or less within their social status than to hold out for some "Prince Charming" to reach down and pull her up a dozen rungs on the social ladder. Heck, it was in college that a woman actually hit on me for a change! > Just look at the wedding section in the newspaper.  I usually see > young very attractive couples.  Women go for the bad boy hotties with > the belief that they can tame them once they are married.  As a > result, the divorce rate is souring,

Is it really?  I thought it’d been holding steady for a while.  Anyone have statistics on this?  Virgo? > and when a woman hits her late > 30s with stretch marks, she learns that physical attraction does not > amount to much.

Nothing an unshallow man couldn’t look past, right?

Response:

JayCee <jc38…@wymnrevil.com> wrote in message <news:41106B8F.43CB66E3@wymnrevil.com>… > Well, it’s true that the average man finds the average woman within his > age group to be attractive, but the average woman finds the average man to > be repulsive. It’s probably also true that about 80% of women  find only > 10% of men to be attractive. So women  will continue to be shallow hoes > and hook up with men "attractive" men who abuse them and use them. Fucking > whores …

I have a theory about this.  IMO women aren’t attracted to men, but to particular men – mainly their romantic interests.  Men, OTOH, are different.  They are sexually attracted to many women. Shooting Star

Response:

<lra…@obmarl.com> wrote in news:Xns953B8E7A9F530lramboobmarlcom@68.12.19.6: > "Eerieness of the Short-Distance Rodent" <a…@at.org> wrote in > news:Xns953B4E083339Efkjdlkvjcxoiuarepoij@68.6.19.6: >> alvinstraigh…@hotmail.com (Alvin) wrote in >> news:d2ec46.0408040624.2d3d1c38@posting.google.com: >>> Well for one, women need to be taught better.   >> Oh for fuck’s sake just shut the hell up.  For the sake of fuck.  I >> don’t know what that means. — > Also good: For the love of FUCK!

Lash Rambo Yes, very good. — >Its Federation of Undesirable and Cuckolded Knights. >M

Hmmmm…

Response:

theinvinciblepu…@hotmail.com (Shooting Star) wrote in message <news:722d925b.0408041840.58a6b8c9@posting.google.com>… > JayCee <jc38…@wymnrevil.com> wrote in message <news:41106B8F.43CB66E3@wymnrevil.com>… > > Well, it’s true that the average man finds the average woman within his > > age group to be attractive, but the average woman finds the average man to > > be repulsive. It’s probably also true that about 80% of women  find only > > 10% of men to be attractive. So women  will continue to be shallow hoes > > and hook up with men "attractive" men who abuse them and use them. Fucking > > whores … > I have a theory about this.  IMO women aren’t attracted to men, but to > particular men – mainly their romantic interests.  Men, OTOH, are > different.  They are sexually attracted to many women. > Shooting Star

lets not generalize……. you cant really force logic onto jaycee audrey

Response:

(Alvin) wrote > When you compare the two sexes, men are at an extreme disadvantage > when it comes to single life and dating.  The main problem is that > women are more shallow than men.

I hate to surprise you dude, but we’re all pretty shallow. And you’re just proving that imo by turning women into the "enemy".   Yes, the whole rhetoric that she > just wants a man with a good heart can be tossed out the window.   > And it is only getting worse.  I chat online, and it seems like more > women message me immediately asking if I have a pic.

LOL You would prefer men to ask you for a pic? Oddly enough more men used to mail me asking for a pic than women. – Michaela

Response:

michaelamackenzie05072…@yahoo.com (Michaela) wrote in news:3271bf15.0408050713.6e545a30@posting.google.com: > I hate to surprise you dude, but we’re all pretty shallow.

Why do you want to brush everyone with same stroke?  ’we’re all manipulative’, ‘we’re all shallow’.  Isn’t that rather meaningless?  Yes we’re all bipeds, but can run faster than others, nonetheless.  I mean, seriously.

Response:

gamma_n…@yahoo.com (Virgo Cluster) wrote in news:dd95baf2.0408041137.4bfc0d2f@posting.google.com: – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> alvinstraigh…@hotmail.com (Alvin) wrote in message > <news:d2ec46.0408040624.2d3d1c38@posting.google.com>… > ** Lash Rambo ** >>> Assume for the sake of argument that you’re right, >>> and women are shallower than men. Then what?  Where >>> do you go from there?  What do you get out of the deal? >>> How is the world a better place as a result of this observation? > ** Alvin ** >> Well for one, women need to be taught better. They grow up being >> daddy’s little girl, his princess, no man is too good for my baby, > <snip rest> > You’re pulling your punch with this last part. For a stronger > rant you want to say "no man is good enough for my baby". > Here’s an old post of mine that might be useful for your > future rants. > ——————————————————————— > Message-ID: dd95baf2.0302132035.4a615…@posting.google.com > From:       Virgo Cluster (gamma_n…@yahoo.com) > Subject:    Re: i need a break > Newsgroups: alt.support.shyness > Date:       2003-02-13 20:35:30 PST > Honey Bunny 0…@webtv.net (Honey B.) wrote in message > <news:2037-3E4BDFF2-194@storefull-2317.public.lawson.webtv.net>… >> this is pretty much a rant that ive posted.  i dont really >> expect anyone to respond favorably to it but i felt like >> posting it and so i did. > I’m sorry, but you need to work on your rants! This rant barely > rates one screaming William head out of five. > http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=Xns931AD885962E4willi…@206.172.1 > 50.14

Holy crap.  It’s a meta-meta post–a post about a post about a post.  I’m afraid to follow the links, lest I find out they’re meta posts, too!   Aiiigggghhhhhhhhh!!!!!!! – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> I suppose I could google up some really good rants by meg, Kitz, > William, Lisa, and yes, even ness, that you could learn from, > but because I value my health I’ll refer you to these instead —-> > 1womanscyberpersona (2000-12-02) > http://groups.google.com/groups?th=1b1edf92f40f6220 > Dave (2002-02-21) > http://groups.google.com/groups?th=bd98e5e08ef52acb > Sandra (2000-08-18) > http://groups.google.com/groups?th=4458f848de48fbc6 > Darkfalz (2002-08-22) [A sample from the grandmaster himself!] > http://groups.google.com/groups?th=4bf47bb8c1c5ba3f > ——————————————————————— > Virgo Cluster >   "[The UK's 10 Greatest Eurovision Song Contest Flops] (#2) >    "The Bad Old Days", by Co-co — 11′th in Paris, 1978." > << Karl Shaw, "The Mammoth Book of Tasteless >    Lists", Carroll & Graf Publishers, 1998, p. 162 >>

Response:

Eerieness of the Short-Distance Rodent wrote: > (Michaela) wrote >> I hate to surprise you dude, but we’re all pretty shallow. > Why do you want to brush everyone with same stroke?  ’we’re all > manipulative’, ‘we’re all shallow’.  Isn’t that rather meaningless? > Yes we’re all bipeds, but can run faster than others, nonetheless.  I > mean, seriously.

You’re absolutely right. For were it true, you’d not have felt the need to respond. Love – Michaela

Response:

"Michaela" <michaelashouse> wrote in news:4112b21d.0@news1.mweb.co.za: > Eerieness of the Short-Distance Rodent wrote: >> (Michaela) wrote >>> I hate to surprise you dude, but we’re all pretty shallow. >> Why do you want to brush everyone with same stroke?  ’we’re all >> manipulative’, ‘we’re all shallow’.  Isn’t that rather meaningless? >> Yes we’re all bipeds, but can run faster than others, nonetheless.  I >> mean, seriously. > You’re absolutely right. > For were it true, you’d not have felt the need to respond.

Not sure which ‘it’ you’re referring to, unless it’s my incessantly smug nature.

Response:

Eerieness of the Short-Distance Rodent wrote: > "Michaela" wrote >> Eerieness of the Short-Distance Rodent wrote: >>> (Michaela) wrote >>>> I hate to surprise you dude, but we’re all pretty shallow. >>> Why do you want to brush everyone with same stroke?  ’we’re all >>> manipulative’, ‘we’re all shallow’.  Isn’t that rather meaningless? >>> Yes we’re all bipeds, but can run faster than others, nonetheless. >>> I mean, seriously. >> You’re absolutely right. >> For were it true, you’d not have felt the need to respond. > incessantly> smug

Kindly refrain from putting those two words next to each other in a sentence. nature. – Michaela

Response:

alvinstraigh…@hotmail.com (Alvin) wrote in message <news:d2ec46.0408031431.7099358d@posting.google.com>… > When you compare the two sexes, men are at an extreme disadvantage

whine deleted — > No matter how you look, there is truly someone out there for everyone. >  Some girl is attracted to your own special features.  The problem is > the chances are slim that you will across paths with a girl that > desires your combination of factors. There are just so many variables > involved. You might as well move on if you don’t have that right combo > of factors.  I even know some women that are turned off by body > builders and the Alpha types.  There is just no way of winning.  Only > a lucky roll.

well – yeah! true for everybody … boys & girls h*

Response:

alvinstraigh…@hotmail.com (Alvin) wrote in news:d2ec46.0408031431.7099358d@posting.google.com: <snip> Assume for the sake of argument that you’re right, and women are shallower than men.  Then what?  Where do you go from there?  What do you get out of the deal?  How is the world a better place as a result of this observation?

Response:

> alvinstraigh…@hotmail.com (Alvin) wrote in > news:d2ec46.0408031431.7099358d@posting.google.com: > <snip> Lash Rambo wrote: > Assume for the sake of argument that you’re right, and women are shallower > than men.  Then what?  Where do you go from there?  What do you get out of > the deal?  How is the world a better place as a result of this observation?

The purpose of the message was to vent, not to present a course of action, unless the course of action presented was to pull oneself out of the market in futility.

Response:

MCMLXVI <mar…@earthlink.net> wrote in news:z3XPc.8554$Jp6.7471@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net: >> alvinstraigh…@hotmail.com (Alvin) wrote in >> news:d2ec46.0408031431.7099358d@posting.google.com: >> <snip> > Lash Rambo wrote: >> Assume for the sake of argument that you’re right, and women are >> shallower than men.  Then what?  Where do you go from there?  What do >> you get out of the deal?  How is the world a better place as a result >> of this observation? > The purpose of the message was to vent, not to present a course of > action, unless the course of action presented was to pull oneself out > of the market in futility.

He seemed to be trying to prove an assertion, and seemed to remain more or less calm throughout his post, so I assumed it was more than a simple vent.

Response:

Well, it’s true that the average man finds the average woman within his age group to be attractive, but the average woman finds the average man to be repulsive. It’s probably also true that about 80% of women  find only 10% of men to be attractive. So women  will continue to be shallow hoes and hook up with men "attractive" men who abuse them and use them. Fucking whores … – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Alvin wrote: > When you compare the two sexes, men are at an extreme disadvantage > when it comes to single life and dating.  The main problem is that > women are more shallow than men.  Yes, the whole rhetoric that she > just wants a man with a good heart can be tossed out the window. > And it is only getting worse.  I chat online, and it seems like more > women message me immediately asking if I have a pic. > Gotta pic?  Yea, and I’m fucking ugly, bitch.  Still want one? > Of course, women refuse to view themselves as shallow and cold.  They > will still say that that the inside is what counts, personality, > intelligence.  Yet, if you polled most women, they would admit that > physical attraction is a must. > The sad fact is that men are not near as shallow when it comes to > physical requirements.   A woman will reject a man immediately for the > most minor physical flaw, yet I don’t know a guy that would turn down > a date with a nice looking lady because say, she had small sized > breasts.   I believe that most men find the majority of women out > there attractive.  Even the plain jane girl out there is attractive. > You just don’t hear of many girls becoming old maids because they are > not asked out.  Heck, even girls with disabilities probably get more > dates than the average joe. > Men are on the opposite end of the spectrum.   If physical attraction > is a must, what do women consider physically attractive?  This > question will always remain a great mystery because every single women > on the planet has a varying degree of attraction factors.   Therefore, > most guys will face some possibility of rejection with  woman that > they approach.  You may be a good looking dude, but you do not possess > her own unique attraction factors. And no matter how hard you try on > the date, she will reward you with indifference, or "you’re a nice > guy".  Or even worse, you need a combination of factors.    For > example, I’m a hairy chested guy.  Some women will regard that trait > as disgusting..  I’ve had women demand that I shave myself if I go > with them.  Screw you.  I’m not altering my physical being to satisfy > your attraction factor.  On the other hand,  there are women that find > my hair chest to be a turn on. > No matter how you look, there is truly someone out there for everyone. >  Some girl is attracted to your own special features.  The problem is > the chances are slim that you will across paths with a girl that > desires your combination of factors. There are just so many variables > involved. You might as well move on if you don’t have that right combo > of factors.  I even know some women that are turned off by body > builders and the Alpha types.  There is just no way of winning.  Only > a lucky roll.

Response:

When you compare the two sexes, men are at an extreme disadvantage when it comes to single life and dating.  The main problem is that women are more shallow than men.  Yes, the whole rhetoric that she just wants a man with a good heart can be tossed out the window.   And it is only getting worse.  I chat online, and it seems like more women message me immediately asking if I have a pic. Gotta pic?  Yea, and I’m fucking ugly, bitch.  Still want one? Of course, women refuse to view themselves as shallow and cold.  They will still say that that the inside is what counts, personality, intelligence.  Yet, if you polled most women, they would admit that physical attraction is a must. The sad fact is that men are not near as shallow when it comes to physical requirements.   A woman will reject a man immediately for the most minor physical flaw, yet I don’t know a guy that would turn down a date with a nice looking lady because say, she had small sized breasts.   I believe that most men find the majority of women out there attractive.  Even the plain jane girl out there is attractive.   You just don’t hear of many girls becoming old maids because they are not asked out.  Heck, even girls with disabilities probably get more dates than the average joe. Men are on the opposite end of the spectrum.   If physical attraction is a must, what do women consider physically attractive?  This question will always remain a great mystery because every single women on the planet has a varying degree of attraction factors.   Therefore, most guys will face some possibility of rejection with  woman that they approach.  You may be a good looking dude, but you do not possess her own unique attraction factors. And no matter how hard you try on the date, she will reward you with indifference, or "you’re a nice guy".  Or even worse, you need a combination of factors.    For example, I’m a hairy chested guy.  Some women will regard that trait as disgusting..  I’ve had women demand that I shave myself if I go with them.  Screw you.  I’m not altering my physical being to satisfy your attraction factor.  On the other hand,  there are women that find my hair chest to be a turn on. No matter how you look, there is truly someone out there for everyone.  Some girl is attracted to your own special features.  The problem is the chances are slim that you will across paths with a girl that desires your combination of factors. There are just so many variables involved. You might as well move on if you don’t have that right combo of factors.  I even know some women that are turned off by body builders and the Alpha types.  There is just no way of winning.  Only a lucky roll.

Response:

"Alvin" <alvinstraigh…@hotmail.com> wrote in message

news:d2ec46.0408031431.7099358d@posting.google.com… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> When you compare the two sexes, men are at an extreme disadvantage > when it comes to single life and dating.  The main problem is that > women are more shallow than men.  Yes, the whole rhetoric that she > just wants a man with a good heart can be tossed out the window. > And it is only getting worse.  I chat online, and it seems like more > women message me immediately asking if I have a pic. > Gotta pic?  Yea, and I’m fucking ugly, bitch.  Still want one? > Of course, women refuse to view themselves as shallow and cold.  They > will still say that that the inside is what counts, personality, > intelligence.  Yet, if you polled most women, they would admit that > physical attraction is a must. > The sad fact is that men are not near as shallow when it comes to > physical requirements.   A woman will reject a man immediately for the > most minor physical flaw, yet I don’t know a guy that would turn down > a date with a nice looking lady because say, she had small sized > breasts.   I believe that most men find the majority of women out > there attractive.  Even the plain jane girl out there is attractive. > You just don’t hear of many girls becoming old maids because they are > not asked out.  Heck, even girls with disabilities probably get more > dates than the average joe. > Men are on the opposite end of the spectrum.   If physical attraction > is a must, what do women consider physically attractive?  This > question will always remain a great mystery because every single women > on the planet has a varying degree of attraction factors.   Therefore, > most guys will face some possibility of rejection with  woman that > they approach.  You may be a good looking dude, but you do not possess > her own unique attraction factors. And no matter how hard you try on > the date, she will reward you with indifference, or "you’re a nice > guy".  Or even worse, you need a combination of factors.    For > example, I’m a hairy chested guy.  Some women will regard that trait > as disgusting..  I’ve had women demand that I shave myself if I go > with them.  Screw you.  I’m not altering my physical being to satisfy > your attraction factor.  On the other hand,  there are women that find > my hair chest to be a turn on. > No matter how you look, there is truly someone out there for everyone. >  Some girl is attracted to your own special features.  The problem is > the chances are slim that you will across paths with a girl that > desires your combination of factors. There are just so many variables > involved. You might as well move on if you don’t have that right combo > of factors.  I even know some women that are turned off by body > builders and the Alpha types.  There is just no way of winning.  Only > a lucky roll.

Nice post, and 100% true.

Response:

sex and the heavy wife

Question:

Let me say a few things about the topic. 1. Being honest and making suggestions about a partner is appropriate.  Just as most woman do not keep quiet about how much a husband makes, where they should live, and how he dresses, a man should be able to make a few suggestions regarding his wife. 2. To simply eliminate sex or punish one’s wife is mean and counterproductive. To say that weight signficantly impacts sex is not accurate. Vaginal size is unaffected by weight.  Oral sex can be nice.  Good sex simply is not correlated with weight; thin women can be inhibited, heavier women can be good partners. One should enjoy a good sex life, but suggestions put nicely regarding weight are appropriate.  

Response:

"Hopey5000" <hopey5…@aol.com> wrote in message

news:20040801131207.04469.00000633@mb-m27.aol.com… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Let me say a few things about the topic. > 1. Being honest and making suggestions about a partner is appropriate. Just as > most woman do not keep quiet about how much a husband makes, where they should > live, and how he dresses, a man should be able to make a few suggestions > regarding his wife. > 2. To simply eliminate sex or punish one’s wife is mean and counterproductive. > To say that weight signficantly impacts sex is not accurate. Vaginal size is > unaffected by weight.  Oral sex can be nice.  Good sex simply is not correlated > with weight; thin women can be inhibited, heavier women can be good partners. > One should enjoy a good sex life, but suggestions put nicely regarding weight > are appropriate.

this problem wouldn’t exist if people used their heads before getting married. If you take pride on the way you look make sure your partner does the same. oh  and vaginal size may not be affected by the weight but it’s dam sure a turn off if you have to reposition the lard surrounding it to get to the promise land.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -"Arthur" <karthu…@msn.com> wrote in message <news:410d5dcb$0$20996$9a6e19ea@news.newshosting.com>… > "Hopey5000" <hopey5…@aol.com> wrote in message > news:20040801131207.04469.00000633@mb-m27.aol.com… > > Let me say a few things about the topic. > > 1. Being honest and making suggestions about a partner is appropriate. >  Just as > > most woman do not keep quiet about how much a husband makes, where they >  should > > live, and how he dresses, a man should be able to make a few suggestions > > regarding his wife. > > 2. To simply eliminate sex or punish one’s wife is mean and >  counterproductive. > > To say that weight signficantly impacts sex is not accurate. Vaginal size >  is > > unaffected by weight.  Oral sex can be nice.  Good sex simply is not >  correlated > > with weight; thin women can be inhibited, heavier women can be good >  partners. > > One should enjoy a good sex life, but suggestions put nicely regarding >  weight > > are appropriate. > this problem wouldn’t exist if people used their heads before getting > married. > If you take pride on the way you look make sure your partner does the same.

You know, everyone acts like when you get married that it’s supposed to be forever.   Do you know how many people out there get married, have kids, get divorced and get remarried to someone else (or stay single)  and the kids grow up perfectly normal?  Some people make marriage sound like a life deal.  It doesn’t always work out that way.  People change.  Life does go on. > oh  and vaginal size may not be affected by the weight but it’s dam sure a > turn off if you have to reposition the lard surrounding it to get to the > promise land.

You got that right brother.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Terry wrote: > "Arthur" <karthu…@msn.com> wrote in message > <news:410d5dcb$0$20996$9a6e19ea@news.newshosting.com>… >> "Hopey5000" <hopey5…@aol.com> wrote in message >> news:20040801131207.04469.00000633@mb-m27.aol.com… >>> Let me say a few things about the topic. >>> 1. Being honest and making suggestions about a partner is appropriate. Just as >>> most woman do not keep quiet about how much a husband makes, where they >>  should >>> live, and how he dresses, a man should be able to make a few suggestions >>> regarding his wife. >>> 2. To simply eliminate sex or punish one’s wife is mean and counterproductive. >>> To say that weight signficantly impacts sex is not accurate. Vaginal size is >>> unaffected by weight.  Oral sex can be nice.  Good sex simply is not correlated >>> with weight; thin women can be inhibited, heavier women can be good partners. >>> One should enjoy a good sex life, but suggestions put nicely regarding weight >>> are appropriate. >> this problem wouldn’t exist if people used their heads before getting married. >> If you take pride on the way you look make sure your partner does the same. > You know, everyone acts like when you get married that it’s supposed > to be forever.   Do you know how many people out there get married, > have kids, get divorced and get remarried to someone else (or stay > single)  and the kids grow up perfectly normal?  Some people make > marriage sound like a life deal.  It doesn’t always work out that way. >  People change.  Life does go on.

The divorce rate these days is around 50%, I believe.   Whatever that tells you (well, actually that’s rhetorical, isn’t it).

Response:

On 1 Aug 2004 19:36:27 -0700, Terry – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -<saxxxa…@yahoo.com> wrote: > "Arthur" <karthu…@msn.com> wrote in message <news:410d5dcb$0$20996$9a6e19ea@news.newshosting.com>… >> "Hopey5000" <hopey5…@aol.com> wrote in message >> news:20040801131207.04469.00000633@mb-m27.aol.com… >> > Let me say a few things about the topic. >> > 1. Being honest and making suggestions about a partner is appropriate. >>  Just as >> > most woman do not keep quiet about how much a husband makes, where they >>  should >> > live, and how he dresses, a man should be able to make a few suggestions >> > regarding his wife. >> > 2. To simply eliminate sex or punish one’s wife is mean and >>  counterproductive. >> > To say that weight signficantly impacts sex is not accurate. Vaginal size >>  is >> > unaffected by weight.  Oral sex can be nice.  Good sex simply is not >>  correlated >> > with weight; thin women can be inhibited, heavier women can be good >>  partners. >> > One should enjoy a good sex life, but suggestions put nicely regarding >>  weight >> > are appropriate. >> this problem wouldn’t exist if people used their heads before getting >> married. >> If you take pride on the way you look make sure your partner does the same. > You know, everyone acts like when you get married that it’s supposed > to be forever.   Do you know how many people out there get married, > have kids, get divorced and get remarried to someone else (or stay > single)  and the kids grow up perfectly normal?  Some people make > marriage sound like a life deal.  It doesn’t always work out that way. >  People change.  Life does go on.

If that’s your attitude, maybe you ought to move this to alt.support.divorce. -Tony — "If the grass appears to be greener on the other side of the fence, it’s time to fertilize your lawn!" Want to jump start your marriage?  Consider a Marriage Encounter weekend. Check out http://www.wwme.org for more information.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Arthur wrote: > "Hopey5000" <hopey5…@aol.com> wrote in message > news:20040801131207.04469.00000633@mb-m27.aol.com… >> Let me say a few things about the topic. >> 1. Being honest and making suggestions about a partner is appropriate. > Just as >> most woman do not keep quiet about how much a husband makes, where they > should >> live, and how he dresses, a man should be able to make a few suggestions >> regarding his wife. >> 2. To simply eliminate sex or punish one’s wife is mean and > counterproductive. >> To say that weight signficantly impacts sex is not accurate. Vaginal size > is >> unaffected by weight.  Oral sex can be nice.  Good sex simply is not > correlated >> with weight; thin women can be inhibited, heavier women can be good > partners. >> One should enjoy a good sex life, but suggestions put nicely regarding > weight >> are appropriate. > this problem wouldn’t exist if people used their heads before getting > married. > If you take pride on the way you look make sure your partner does the > same. > oh  and vaginal size may not be affected by the weight but it’s dam sure a > turn off if you have to reposition the lard surrounding it to get to the > promise land.

And if she is too heavy to lift herself;  but:- It depends on whether you want a body or a person. Doug. — ICQ Number 178748389. Registered Linux User No. 277548. Let’s explore.  If we don’t find something pleasant, we will at least find something new.         – Voltaire.

Response:

Look, weight *does* get in the way, especially when non-PIV is a non-starter.  Being a cunning linguist is also difficult since everything is obscured by the angle. That being said, in the case where the body is "apple" shaped rather than "pear", "T", "doggy" and even "spoon" will work reasonably well.  Only in doggy can the male show much enthusiasm; the other two are much slower. I have _no_ idea (beyond "doggy") for those with a wife that is pear-shaped. As for overweight men w/ the same factors, I don’t know.  I’m over-weight but not to that degree. Knowing, could say.  Not knowing so cannot say. — Jack C Lipton | cupasoup at pele dot cx | http://www.asstr.org/~CupaSoup/        "While life is too short to be taken seriously, it also lasts        for far too long to spend it with a stick up your ass."  - me

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Doug Laidlaw <laidl…@myaccess.com.au> wrote in message <news:3224u1-134.ln1@dougshost.mydomain.org.au>… > Arthur wrote: > > "Hopey5000" <hopey5…@aol.com> wrote in message > > news:20040801131207.04469.00000633@mb-m27.aol.com… > >> Let me say a few things about the topic. > >> 1. Being honest and making suggestions about a partner is appropriate. >  Just as > >> most woman do not keep quiet about how much a husband makes, where they >  should > >> live, and how he dresses, a man should be able to make a few suggestions > >> regarding his wife. > >> 2. To simply eliminate sex or punish one’s wife is mean and >  counterproductive. > >> To say that weight signficantly impacts sex is not accurate. Vaginal size >  is > >> unaffected by weight.  Oral sex can be nice.  Good sex simply is not >  correlated > >> with weight; thin women can be inhibited, heavier women can be good >  partners. > >> One should enjoy a good sex life, but suggestions put nicely regarding >  weight > >> are appropriate. > > this problem wouldn’t exist if people used their heads before getting > > married. > > If you take pride on the way you look make sure your partner does the > > same. > > oh  and vaginal size may not be affected by the weight but it’s dam sure a > > turn off if you have to reposition the lard surrounding it to get to the > > promise land. > And if she is too heavy to lift herself;  but:- > It depends on whether you want a body or a person.

   First of all, on this Astral Plain, persons come along with bodies. Only in your dreams can the two be dealt with seperately. Second, it is a cruel bit of dis-information to suggest that either men or women stop caring about the things that they find sxually attractive when they get to know someone better.    Consider a married guy who suddenly quits his good job and slobs around the house for no good reason. Maybe his true inner self is the exact same, but you can be sure his wife will stop wanting to have sex with him. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Doug.

Response:

cupas…@peElMe.cx (Jack C Lipton) wrote in message <news:slrncgvka3.sma.cupasoup@soup2nets.net.dhis.org>… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Look, weight *does* get in the way, especially when > non-PIV is a non-starter.  Being a cunning linguist > is also difficult since everything is obscured by > the angle. > That being said, in the case where the body is > "apple" shaped rather than "pear", "T", "doggy" and > even "spoon" will work reasonably well.  Only in > doggy can the male show much enthusiasm; the other > two are much slower. > I have _no_ idea (beyond "doggy") for those with a > wife that is pear-shaped. > As for overweight men w/ the same factors, I don’t > know.  I’m over-weight but not to that degree. > Knowing, could say.  Not knowing so cannot say.

How much weight are we discussing???  An elephant?

Response:

You don’t have to become fat. its a choice, maybe an unconscious one, but its still a choice. "Ignoramus24751" <ignoramus24…@NOSPAM.24751.invalid> wrote in message

news:cejqtq$i2r$3@pita.alt.net… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> In article <410d5dcb$0$20996$9a6e1…@news.newshosting.com>, Arthur wrote: > > this problem wouldn’t exist if people used their heads before > > getting married.  If you take pride on the way you look make sure > > your partner does the same. > Unfortunately, people change and even good looking people, taking > pride etc, one day can easily become fat. There is no assurance. If a > person’s parents and grandparents were all slim though, that’s a good > sign. > i

Response:

Caren wrote: > Jack C Lipton blathered on and on and on: >> As for overweight men w/ the same factors, I don’t >> know.  I’m over-weight but not to that degree. >> Knowing, could say.  Not knowing so cannot say. > How much weight are we discussing???  An elephant?

Well, my wife is approx 150 over;  I’m somewhere around 50 over, perhaps more like 60+.  In the case of my wife it’s the additional problems the weight exacerbates (arthritis, fibromyalgia) that are more of a problem than the weight itself. Of course her lack of enthusiasm (it’s amazing I can get so strung out that I can forget about this and actually show sexual interest myself) provides some of the greatest emotional friction;  her weight and her "issues" from her weight are minor by comparison. We _do_ care about each other, despite the frictions, so the weight doesn’t impact her attractiveness to me as much as any of the other issues. — Jack C Lipton | cupasoup at pele dot cx | http://www.asstr.org/~CupaSoup/        "While life is too short to be taken seriously, it also lasts        for far too long to spend it with a stick up your ass."  - me

Response:

My wife runs away in a week time-Help-Urgent

Question:

"raj" <raj…@yahoo.com> wrote… > What can I do to protect myself from this happening.  I have thought > about telling my GP here that her behaviour was abnormal, but that > would have implied an effect ie my being depressed on account of this. > Is there any way I could make a statement in court/consulate? before > her allegations come though.  Please help, any suggestions at all welcome.

So what if it implies depression.  You need to start talking to someone, like a solicitor or law enforcement.  Perhaps you could record her statements (if its legal).  Otherwise, such after the fact claims will be seem as merely self-serving.  [R]

Response:

"raj" <raj…@yahoo.com> wrote in message

news:e43684ee.0407241826.5388a00b@posting.google.com… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> I have been married for the last 4 years now, with differences and > squabbles becoming more prolonged over the last year.Lately things > have become more exacerbated by my wife resorting to chatting lots > more than before on the net.In the course of  our arguments she told > that she was out looking for a new person in her life, and needed to > enjoy her life to the fullest. > Now she has contacted this chap in India( a married  chap) who has > arranged for her ticket sometime in the next week, dont know when > exactly, she hasnt told me yet. > Most probably will just run off on the day after I leave for work.Im > currently in Scotland and she is here as a dependent on my working > visa.She has been threatening to take me to court , and have an > allegation of  physical+mental assault/torture  pushed through against > me(in her own words) , which is a criminal offence in the courts.That, > she knows will create havoc with regard to my being employed in future > here. > She has been threatening and manipulative in all the times after > marriage,eg suicidal threats when not allowed her way, like > threatening to jump of the top of a building and  had to be talked out > of it on 2 occasions.Life here for me has been hell , partly because > of the fact that if she did attempt some sort of self harm, then I > would be  to blame. > I have reconciled myself to the fact that she is going , but what she > has vowed to do is see that I get screwed here by her allegations in > the Indian court . > What can I do to protect myself from this happening.I have thought > about telling my GP here that her behaviour was abnormal , but that > would have implied an effect ie my being depressed on account of this. > Is there any way I could make a statement in court/consulate? before > her allegations come though. > Please help , any suggestions at all welcome.

Firstly, start keeping a record yourself. Just get an exercise book, and each day date it and record what’s happened. Next, write up now a record, a kind of a time line, of the whole thing from the beginning. Where you first met, how, who had what, acquisition of assets, income, etc. Collect financial and other records etc, and try to link major events with objective records. Your aim is to put together a comprehensive record of the whole thing. I know that will take time and trouble, but so is being sued and losing. You have to basically start this as a part-time job or hobby for yourself, and give so much time to it per week, maybe half an hour a day, something like that. This is very important self-help; it will not only help you get your head around it, it will help a lawyer, when you go to one later. It will also save you thousands of dollars, otherwise he will have to put together the same history with you sitting in conference in his office for hours on end. Get advice from a specialist family lawyer soon. Start protecting your assets now. With a bit of luck she won’t be heard from again after she reaches India. Read nomarriage.com

Response:

I have been married for the last 4 years now, with differences and squabbles becoming more prolonged over the last year.Lately things have become more exacerbated by my wife resorting to chatting lots more than before on the net.In the course of  our arguments she told that she was out looking for a new person in her life, and needed to enjoy her life to the fullest. Now she has contacted this chap in India( a married  chap) who has arranged for her ticket sometime in the next week, dont know when exactly, she hasnt told me yet. Most probably will just run off on the day after I leave for work.Im currently in Scotland and she is here as a dependent on my working visa.She has been threatening to take me to court , and have an allegation of  physical+mental assault/torture  pushed through against me(in her own words) , which is a criminal offence in the courts.That, she knows will create havoc with regard to my being employed in future here. She has been threatening and manipulative in all the times after marriage,eg suicidal threats when not allowed her way, like threatening to jump of the top of a building and  had to be talked out of it on 2 occasions.Life here for me has been hell , partly because of the fact that if she did attempt some sort of self harm, then I would be  to blame. I have reconciled myself to the fact that she is going , but what she has vowed to do is see that I get screwed here by her allegations in the Indian court . What can I do to protect myself from this happening.I have thought about telling my GP here that her behaviour was abnormal , but that would have implied an effect ie my being depressed on account of this. Is there any way I could make a statement in court/consulate? before her allegations come though. Please help , any suggestions at all welcome.

Response:

    Seems both of this are saying this alot lately.     — John, who is now in his 3rd week of waiting for the judge’s "couple of days" decision. "Rambler" <iamrambler at yahoo dot com> wrote in message news:ce1le4$mh41@imsp212.netvigator.com… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Seems like I am saying this alot today. > File for divorce now.  Do so first.  Then her accusations become looked at > as a "response" to your filing.  Her burden of proof becomes much higher. > Go talk to a solicitor.  Today. > Rambler > "raj" <raj…@yahoo.com> wrote in message > news:e43684ee.0407241826.5388a00b@posting.google.com… > > I have been married for the last 4 years now, with differences and > > squabbles becoming more prolonged over the last year.Lately things > > have become more exacerbated by my wife resorting to chatting lots > > more than before on the net.In the course of  our arguments she told > > that she was out looking for a new person in her life, and needed to > > enjoy her life to the fullest. > > Now she has contacted this chap in India( a married  chap) who has > > arranged for her ticket sometime in the next week, dont know when > > exactly, she hasnt told me yet. > > Most probably will just run off on the day after I leave for work.Im > > currently in Scotland and she is here as a dependent on my working > > visa.She has been threatening to take me to court , and have an > > allegation of  physical+mental assault/torture  pushed through against > > me(in her own words) , which is a criminal offence in the courts.That, > > she knows will create havoc with regard to my being employed in future > > here. > > She has been threatening and manipulative in all the times after > > marriage,eg suicidal threats when not allowed her way, like > > threatening to jump of the top of a building and  had to be talked out > > of it on 2 occasions.Life here for me has been hell , partly because > > of the fact that if she did attempt some sort of self harm, then I > > would be  to blame. > > I have reconciled myself to the fact that she is going , but what she > > has vowed to do is see that I get screwed here by her allegations in > > the Indian court . > > What can I do to protect myself from this happening.I have thought > > about telling my GP here that her behaviour was abnormal , but that > > would have implied an effect ie my being depressed on account of this. > > Is there any way I could make a statement in court/consulate? before > > her allegations come though. > > Please help , any suggestions at all welcome.

Response:

Seems like I am saying this alot today. File for divorce now.  Do so first.  Then her accusations become looked at as a "response" to your filing.  Her burden of proof becomes much higher. Go talk to a solicitor.  Today. Rambler "raj" <raj…@yahoo.com> wrote in message

news:e43684ee.0407241826.5388a00b@posting.google.com… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> I have been married for the last 4 years now, with differences and > squabbles becoming more prolonged over the last year.Lately things > have become more exacerbated by my wife resorting to chatting lots > more than before on the net.In the course of  our arguments she told > that she was out looking for a new person in her life, and needed to > enjoy her life to the fullest. > Now she has contacted this chap in India( a married  chap) who has > arranged for her ticket sometime in the next week, dont know when > exactly, she hasnt told me yet. > Most probably will just run off on the day after I leave for work.Im > currently in Scotland and she is here as a dependent on my working > visa.She has been threatening to take me to court , and have an > allegation of  physical+mental assault/torture  pushed through against > me(in her own words) , which is a criminal offence in the courts.That, > she knows will create havoc with regard to my being employed in future > here. > She has been threatening and manipulative in all the times after > marriage,eg suicidal threats when not allowed her way, like > threatening to jump of the top of a building and  had to be talked out > of it on 2 occasions.Life here for me has been hell , partly because > of the fact that if she did attempt some sort of self harm, then I > would be  to blame. > I have reconciled myself to the fact that she is going , but what she > has vowed to do is see that I get screwed here by her allegations in > the Indian court . > What can I do to protect myself from this happening.I have thought > about telling my GP here that her behaviour was abnormal , but that > would have implied an effect ie my being depressed on account of this. > Is there any way I could make a statement in court/consulate? before > her allegations come though. > Please help , any suggestions at all welcome.

Response:

Marriage Stike

Question:

Lauri wrote: > On 9 Feb 2005 17:44:39 -0800, "Mark" <m-ruff…@northwestern.edu> > wrote: >> I made $100/yr before we were married and for the three years we were >> married I made a $100/yr. She did nothing to contribute to this.

$100/yr?     Holy mackeral!    You’ve even got me beat on that one! !!!ROFLMAO!!! – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->> My wife filed for divorce because I was complaining she was a poor >> roommate. Mostly, she shopped recreationally and worked a $13/hr job. > At $13 an hour, she only needs to work 8 hours to out-earn your > earnings for an entire year’s earning of $100. > Unless you meant something else? > Lauri in WA > I like my email spamless

Response:

"Doug Anderson" <ethelthelogremovet…@yahoo.com> wrote in message

news:36vssbF56s4riU3@individual.net… > "Mark" <m-ruff…@northwestern.edu> writes: > > I made $100/yr before we were married and for the three years we were > > married I made a $100/yr. She did nothing to contribute to this. > How much per hour is $100/year?

Maybe he’s Santa and he only works one night a year.

Response:

Quick responses for $100,000.00 yearly gross approximately error posting. You may expect with an MBA, I would have caught that minor error. Yet the material facts of this situation still hold, so "no women, no cry." Thanks noticing, thanks for posting. Mark

Response:

Bill in Co. wrote: > Lauri wrote: >> On 9 Feb 2005 17:44:39 -0800, "Mark" <m-ruff…@northwestern.edu> >> wrote: >>> I made $100/yr before we were married and for the three years we >>> were married I made a $100/yr. She did nothing to contribute to >>> this. > $100/yr?        You’ve even got me beat on that one! > !!!ROFLMAO!!!

Ahh Bill I haven’t heard that phrase for about 5 years… My grandfather used to say, Holy mackeral!  and I would get such a kick out of it.  Thanks for making me think of him and smile. LoriMc

Response:

what’s a "stike"? if it’s a marital aid, it sounds too pointy.

Response:

DrLith wrote: > "Doug Anderson" <ethelthelogremovet…@yahoo.com> wrote in message > news:36vssbF56s4riU3@individual.net… >> "Mark" <m-ruff…@northwestern.edu> writes: >>> I made $100/yr before we were married and for the three years we were >>> married I made a $100/yr. She did nothing to contribute to this. >> How much per hour is $100/year? > Maybe he’s Santa and he only works one night a year.

No, he was working as an adjunct.

Response:

On 9 Feb 2005 18:30:45 -0800, Mark <m-ruff…@northwestern.edu> wrote: > I made $100/yr before we were married and for the three years we were > married I made a $100/yr. She did nothing to contribute to this. > My wife filed for divorce because I was complaining she was a poor > roommate. Mostly, she shopped recreationally and worked a $13/hr job.

So you chose the wrong woman. > I do not blame my wife or feminists for my losing my son and everything > I earned and saved.

Of course not.  You chose the wrong woman. > Why are family court, attorneys (mostly white men), and others > Anti-father? At the initial divorce hearing, the county family judge, > after a short discussion, without due process of law, issued a court > order reducing and removing my rights. My parenting replaced by an > "award" to visit two of fourteen days (every other weekend); property > held; 55% monthly income garnished for child support and other support.

You chose the wrong woman and had a baby with her. > To add insult to injury, the Violence Against Women Act Former Pres. > Clinton signed in 1990 made it a crime when my wife became "fearful" of > me. This turned immediately into Order of Protection threatening my > freedom with imprisonment just in case I because at irritated by what > was happening to me.

You chose the wrong woman and didn’t use part of that $100/year to retain an attorney to fight the order or protection. > It is as if the attorney’s on both sides have it all scripted for them > to make an easy $150-$300 per hour. > I thought a read in high school government class that debtor’s prison > is unconstitutional, yet when I visit on other court hearings I see > ordinary men imprisoned for child support debt until they pay it in > full. Attorneys say men are imprisoned for not following a court order, > but tell that to his employer. Who wants to keep employed a jailbird?

Sure, people don’t like men who don’t support their kids (even ones who had children with the wrong woman) > Mark > P.S. I am on a marriage strike until this changes. > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marriage_strike

I betcha that has all the women in the world sobbing. -Tony — "If the grass appears to be greener on the other side of the fence, it’s time to fertilize your lawn!" Want to jump start your marriage?  Consider a Marriage Encounter weekend. Check out http://www.wwme.org for more information.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -LoriMc wrote: > Bill in Co. wrote: >> Lauri wrote: >>> On 9 Feb 2005 17:44:39 -0800, "Mark" <m-ruff…@northwestern.edu> >>> wrote: >>>> I made $100/yr before we were married and for the three years we >>>> were married I made a $100/yr. She did nothing to contribute to >>>> this. >> $100/yr?        You’ve even got me beat on that one! >> !!!ROFLMAO!!! > Ahh Bill I haven’t heard that phrase for about 5 years… My grandfather > used to say,  Holy mackeral!  and I would get such a kick out of it. Thanks > for making me think of him and smile. > LoriMc

Sure!    I think I’ll take that as a compliment (even if I am dating myself).

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Bill in Co. wrote: > LoriMc wrote: >> Bill in Co. wrote: >>> Lauri wrote: >>>> On 9 Feb 2005 17:44:39 -0800, "Mark" <m-ruff…@northwestern.edu> >>>> wrote: >>>>> I made $100/yr before we were married and for the three years we >>>>> were married I made a $100/yr. She did nothing to contribute to >>>>> this. >>> $100/yr?   Holy mackeral!   You’ve even got me beat on that one! >>> !!!ROFLMAO!!! >> Ahh Bill I haven’t heard that phrase for about 5 years… My >> grandfather used to say,  Holy mackeral!  and I would get such a >> kick out of it. Thanks for making me think of him and smile. >> LoriMc > Sure!    I think I’ll take that as a compliment (even if I am dating > myself).

Was a huge compliment as Gramps was one of the most special people in my life.  I really miss him. Lori Mc

Response:

On 9 Feb 2005 18:34:54 -0800, "Mark" <m-ruff…@northwestern.edu> wrote: >Quick responses for $100,000.00 yearly gross approximately error >posting. You may expect with an MBA, I would have caught that minor >error. Yet the material facts of this situation still hold, so "no >women, no cry."

And yet here you are, boo-hoo-hooing your little heart out.  And I’m guessing that we’re supposed to be impressed by the supposed $100k per year and the MBA? Lauri in WA I like my email spamless

Response:

He chose the wrong woman, but men chose the wrong women in 1960 without getting ass-raped by Family Court judges.  These women existed in 1960 as they do in 2005, but now the law allows and encourages her to strip her husband of income, property and fatherhood. The problem is women in America, and the American Family Law system. Change the laws and men will marry. >> It is as if the attorney’s on both sides have it all scripted for them >> to make an easy $150-$300 per hour.

Yes.  You have figured it out.  The plaintiff’s attorney and the defendant’s attorney make sure to file enought motions to take as much money as you can afford, so as to enrich themselves.  They also bring in experts to testify, who also are paid handsomely.  It is a game where they draw out the proceedings to take as much of your money as they can. >> I thought a read in high school government class that debtor’s prison >> is unconstitutional, yet when I visit on other court hearings I see >> ordinary men imprisoned for child support debt until they pay it in >> full. Attorneys say men are imprisoned for not following a court order, >> but tell that to his employer. Who wants to keep employed a

jailbird? >Sure, people don’t like men who don’t support their kids…

You are entitled to not like men who cannot pay usurous support judgements, but criminalizing non-payment of debt *is* illegal in the US, and has been for over 100 years. Of course this is end-run by placing the man in contempt of the judges administrative ruling, so he is technically being jailed for non-compliance to a bench order.  See how the law can be subverted?

Response:

His post isn’t worded as an attempt to impress, merely a statement of fact.

Response:

Mark <m-ruff…@northwestern.edu> wrote: > I do not blame my wife or feminists for my losing my son and everything > I earned and saved.

Wrong group.  This is alt.SUPPORT.marraige.  You want alt.WHINE.marriage.

Response:

Tony Miller <t…@cigardiary.com> wrote: > You chose the wrong woman and had a baby with her.

The second half being the worse mistake.

Response:

Subverting the penalty for the support order, and all other civil court orders, of jail or a contempt charge is easy. My concern, however, why is the penalty for marriage placed on men and why is there not a warning label for marriage. Theodore Roosevelt, with Keynesian economics, created jobs to bring our country out of the Great Depression. Our government hired and instructed men to dig a hole, but later hired a separate group to fill up the hole – giving them wages and, maybe, a pat on the back for a job well done. Today our government appears to be creating jobs for the fatherless children they are creating in family court: judges, attorneys, GALS, enforcement, support functions by spending both man’s money to attorneys and wife and federal, state, and county tax dollars. One hope, I believe, for family in America is the Mexicans. They may restore what was lost beginning in the ’60’s by the influx of immigration. Their divorce rate is the lowest in the world and they are, to me, more family orientated. The Honorable Judge Spence of Kane County IL gave about $50k of $65k of my non-marital money to local attorney’s and court experts. If one has little ethical concerns, it is easy to be a successful divorce attorney/expert – just focus on the hidden money, ask the judge for experts, not the kid’s relationship with their father. Mark

Response:

"Lee" <leraconteur2…@yahoo.com> wrote in message

news:1108049001.828901.212870@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com… > He chose the wrong woman, but men chose the wrong women in 1960 without > getting ass-raped by Family Court judges.  These women existed in 1960 > as they do in 2005, but now the law allows and encourages her to strip > her husband of income, property and fatherhood.

He chose poorly, but then again, same can be said for women. > The problem is women in America, and the American Family Law system. > Change the laws and men will marry. >>> It is as if the attorney’s on both sides have it all scripted for > them >>> to make an easy $150-$300 per hour. > Yes.  You have figured it out.  The plaintiff’s attorney and the > defendant’s attorney make sure to file enought motions to take as much > money as you can afford, so as to enrich themselves.  They also bring > in experts to testify, who also are paid handsomely.  It is a game > where they draw out the proceedings to take as much of your money as > they can.

I don’t fully agree with this.  I think you are in control of what your lawyer does / does not do.  I guess where it gets twisted is when the other spouse/lawyer fights it out in court, and you have no alternative but fight back.  While women may hold an upper hand when it comes down to custody issues, and protective orders, I do not think a judge should, or would, screw the man in splitting of the assets unless there is good reason to do so. A Man – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->>> I thought a read in high school government class that debtor’s > prison >>> is unconstitutional, yet when I visit on other court hearings I see >>> ordinary men imprisoned for child support debt until they pay it in >>> full. Attorneys say men are imprisoned for not following a court > order, >>> but tell that to his employer. Who wants to keep employed a > jailbird? >>Sure, people don’t like men who don’t support their kids… > You are entitled to not like men who cannot pay usurous support > judgements, but criminalizing non-payment of debt *is* illegal in the > US, and has been for over 100 years. Of course this is end-run by > placing the man in contempt of the judges administrative ruling, so he > is technically being jailed for non-compliance to a bench order.  See > how the law can be subverted?

Response:

>Why are family court, attorneys (mostly white men), and others >Anti-father? At the initial divorce hearing, the county family judge,

Women will usually not elect women as lawmakers, because women know that only men will be the ones who consistently pass pro-female laws. Men run for elected office to gain status, which in turn will make them more attractive to other women, thereby increasing the ‘possibility’ of more sex partners. Therefore, it all comes down to sex. ——————————————————————– On 9 Feb 2005 17:44:39 -0800, "Mark" <m-ruff…@northwestern.edu> wrote: – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->I made $100/yr before we were married and for the three years we were >married I made a $100/yr. She did nothing to contribute to this. >My wife filed for divorce because I was complaining she was a poor >roommate. Mostly, she shopped recreationally and worked a $13/hr job. >I do not blame my wife or feminists for my losing my son and everything >I earned and saved. >Why are family court, attorneys (mostly white men), and others >Anti-father? At the initial divorce hearing, the county family judge, >after a short discussion, without due process of law, issued a court >order reducing and removing my rights. My parenting replaced by an >"award" to visit two of fourteen days (every other weekend); property >held; 55% monthly income garnished for child support and other support. >To add insult to injury, the Violence Against Women Act Former Pres. >Clinton signed in 1990 made it a crime when my wife became "fearful" of >me. This turned immediately into Order of Protection threatening my >freedom with imprisonment just in case I because at irritated by what >was happening to me. >It is as if the attorney’s on both sides have it all scripted for them >to make an easy $150-$300 per hour. >I thought a read in high school government class that debtor’s prison >is unconstitutional, yet when I visit on other court hearings I see >ordinary men imprisoned for child support debt until they pay it in >full. Attorneys say men are imprisoned for not following a court order, >but tell that to his employer. Who wants to keep employed a jailbird? >Mark >P.S. I am on a marriage strike until this changes. >http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marriage_strike

Response:

"Lauri" <res0r…@spamlessverizon.net> wrote in message

news:1mum0197risig0t42fehjcjnvjuvi2a5b7@4ax.com… > On 9 Feb 2005 18:34:54 -0800, "Mark" <m-ruff…@northwestern.edu> > wrote: > >Quick responses for $100,000.00 yearly gross approximately error > >posting. You may expect with an MBA, I would have caught that minor > >error. Yet the material facts of this situation still hold, so "no > >women, no cry." > And yet here you are, boo-hoo-hooing your little heart out.  And I’m > guessing that we’re supposed to be impressed by the supposed $100k per > year and the MBA?

Well, now, you’ll just *never* find yourself a man with an attitude like that, Little Missy!

Response:

A Man, Your wrong. If you have an email address I can forward the family court orders for your inspection. Mark

Response:

On Thu, 10 Feb 2005 17:56:54 GMT, Emma Anne <emma_a…@mac.com> wrote: > Tony Miller <t…@cigardiary.com> wrote: >> You chose the wrong woman and had a baby with her. > The second half being the worse mistake.

Agreed -Tony — "If the grass appears to be greener on the other side of the fence, it’s time to fertilize your lawn!" Want to jump start your marriage?  Consider a Marriage Encounter weekend. Check out http://www.wwme.org for more information.

Response:

On Thu, 10 Feb 2005 22:19:06 -0500, "DrLith" <drl…@hotmail.com> wrote: – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->"Lauri" <res0r…@spamlessverizon.net> wrote in message >news:1mum0197risig0t42fehjcjnvjuvi2a5b7@4ax.com… >> On 9 Feb 2005 18:34:54 -0800, "Mark" <m-ruff…@northwestern.edu> >> wrote: >> >Quick responses for $100,000.00 yearly gross approximately error >> >posting. You may expect with an MBA, I would have caught that minor >> >error. Yet the material facts of this situation still hold, so "no >> >women, no cry." >> And yet here you are, boo-hoo-hooing your little heart out.  And I’m >> guessing that we’re supposed to be impressed by the supposed $100k per >> year and the MBA? >Well, now, you’ll just *never* find yourself a man with an attitude like >that, Little Missy!

If this guy is representative of what’s out there, I’ll stick with the status quo. Lauri in WA I like my email spamless

Response:

I made $100/yr before we were married and for the three years we were married I made a $100/yr. She did nothing to contribute to this. My wife filed for divorce because I was complaining she was a poor roommate. Mostly, she shopped recreationally and worked a $13/hr job. I do not blame my wife or feminists for my losing my son and everything I earned and saved. Why are family court, attorneys (mostly white men), and others Anti-father? At the initial divorce hearing, the county family judge, after a short discussion, without due process of law, issued a court order reducing and removing my rights. My parenting replaced by an "award" to visit two of fourteen days (every other weekend); property held; 55% monthly income garnished for child support and other support. To add insult to injury, the Violence Against Women Act Former Pres. Clinton signed in 1990 made it a crime when my wife became "fearful" of me. This turned immediately into Order of Protection threatening my freedom with imprisonment just in case I because at irritated by what was happening to me. It is as if the attorney’s on both sides have it all scripted for them to make an easy $150-$300 per hour. I thought a read in high school government class that debtor’s prison is unconstitutional, yet when I visit on other court hearings I see ordinary men imprisoned for child support debt until they pay it in full. Attorneys say men are imprisoned for not following a court order, but tell that to his employer. Who wants to keep employed a jailbird? Mark P.S. I am on a marriage strike until this changes. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marriage_strike

Response:

On 9 Feb 2005 17:44:39 -0800, "Mark" <m-ruff…@northwestern.edu> wrote: >I made $100/yr before we were married and for the three years we were >married I made a $100/yr. She did nothing to contribute to this. >My wife filed for divorce because I was complaining she was a poor >roommate. Mostly, she shopped recreationally and worked a $13/hr job.

At $13 an hour, she only needs to work 8 hours to out-earn your earnings for an entire year’s earning of $100. Unless you meant something else? Lauri in WA I like my email spamless

Response:

"Mark" <m-ruff…@northwestern.edu> writes: > I made $100/yr before we were married and for the three years we were > married I made a $100/yr. She did nothing to contribute to this.

How much per hour is $100/year? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> My wife filed for divorce because I was complaining she was a poor > roommate. Mostly, she shopped recreationally and worked a $13/hr job. > I do not blame my wife or feminists for my losing my son and everything > I earned and saved. > Why are family court, attorneys (mostly white men), and others > Anti-father? At the initial divorce hearing, the county family judge, > after a short discussion, without due process of law, issued a court > order reducing and removing my rights. My parenting replaced by an > "award" to visit two of fourteen days (every other weekend); property > held; 55% monthly income garnished for child support and other support. > To add insult to injury, the Violence Against Women Act Former Pres. > Clinton signed in 1990 made it a crime when my wife became "fearful" of > me. This turned immediately into Order of Protection threatening my > freedom with imprisonment just in case I because at irritated by what > was happening to me. > It is as if the attorney’s on both sides have it all scripted for them > to make an easy $150-$300 per hour. > I thought a read in high school government class that debtor’s prison > is unconstitutional, yet when I visit on other court hearings I see > ordinary men imprisoned for child support debt until they pay it in > full. Attorneys say men are imprisoned for not following a court order, > but tell that to his employer. Who wants to keep employed a jailbird? > Mark > P.S. I am on a marriage strike until this changes.

I’m curious about this.  Are you thinking that people are going to be so anxious to marry you that they’ll change the statutes so that you can end your strike? Usually strikes involve withholding something that people actually _want_ in order to effect change.

Response:

No Divorce Education

Question:

"Bill in Co." <surly1curmudg…@earthlink.net> wrote in message news:Uo1Id.1448$YD5.704@newsread3.news.pas.earthlink.net… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> DaKitty wrote: > > "Curious Mind" <mindcuri…@yahoo.com> wrote in message > > news:1106235629.882577.113570@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com… > >> Men and women when holding hand and say "love you till death" in front > >> of the judge have little awareness of statistic dictates their marriage > >> is likely fail. Yet, society hides this fact under the rug quite well. > > Huh? What rock would a person have to be living under to not know the > > divorce rate in the US???? > >> They let you sign the a paper to declare you are now lovely married w/o > >> let you that you are signing a legal contract with all legal > >> consequences and complications come with it, in case the marriage > >> fails. > >> Colleges prepare young boy and girl poorly in this regard, they teach > >> history, art, critical thinking, but never mention about divorce rate > >> in Western societies and its social effect and the burdens for divorced > >> people, and offer no marriage preparations. > >> Why no divorce education topic in college? I like to hear from college > >> curricula policy makers in this matter. > > Parents are supposed to teach kids family values.  Not colleges or > schools. > Yup – Well, they USED to, you mean.    Well, ok, that’s quite not fair. > Many still do, but a LOT don’t.

Yea, many still do… and many don’t.

Response:

"Bill in Co." <surly1curmudg…@earthlink.net> wrote in message news:Qs1Id.1450$YD5.1333@newsread3.news.pas.earthlink.net… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> DaKitty wrote: > > <ba…@psyber.com> wrote in message > > news:UhTHd.1113$rc4.974@fe07.usenetserver.com… > >> I think people should have to read and sign a disclaimer, advising them > >> of their rights and liabilities before getting married.  We do the > >> same for financial agreements and marriage is the ultimate financial > >> agreement. > >> It’s unfortunate that our laws cause many of us to enter the contract > >> without knowing its conditions. > > It is a personal responsibility of an adult > The Whaaaattttt? > > to know about the consequences > > of any contract they’re entering. I think there’s either a legal > precedent, > > or some other sort of thing that defines that. > > Having your head in the sand and refusing to grow up and pay attention to > > things around you or acting irresponsible doesn’t preclude someone from > > being seen as legally competent to enter a contract. > Does today.

Maybe in some peoples heads. On the books, it still doesn’t. Although, there’s been legal precedents where its’ expected of a large corporation or government to protect people from their own stupidity…

Response:

"Bill in Co." <surly1curmudg…@earthlink.net> wrote in message news:Op1Id.1449$YD5.424@newsread3.news.pas.earthlink.net… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> DaKitty wrote: > > "Casey" <cclremovethisp…@cox.net> wrote in message > > news:dwQHd.61557$Wo.39558@lakeread08… > >> Curious Mind said > >>> Men and women when holding hand and say "love you till death" in front > >>> of the judge have little awareness of statistic dictates their marriage > >>> is likely fail. Yet, society hides this fact under the rug quite well. > >>> They let you sign the a paper to declare you are now lovely married w/o > >>> let you that you are signing a legal contract with all legal > >>> consequences and complications come with it, in case the marriage > >>> fails. > >>> Colleges prepare young boy and girl poorly in this regard, they teach > >>> history, art, critical thinking, but never mention about divorce rate > >>> in Western societies and its social effect and the burdens for divorced > >>> people, and offer no marriage preparations. > >>> Why no divorce education topic in college? I like to hear from college > >>> curricula policy makers in this matter. > >> For that matter, think how little marriage education the typical person > >> is exposed to before the wedding day.  It would be great if young > >> couples were exposed to some realistic expectations before they were > >> granted a marriage license. > >> It’s a lot harder in the US to get a driver’s license than it is to > >> marry and have children. > > Why is it that people think that government and society should protect > them > > from themselves and make up for what their parents didn’t do (raise them > > with solid family values) > Because that is the way it is today, Kitty.   (I can explain why, but I’d > better not).

I know why as well… It was a rhetorical question. Males me think of when I was 13 or 14, I too thought the world owed me something. I never stayed stuck in that mode though.

Response:

DaKitty wrote: > <ba…@psyber.com> wrote in message > news:UhTHd.1113$rc4.974@fe07.usenetserver.com… >> I think people should have to read and sign a disclaimer, advising them >> of their rights and liabilities before getting married.  We do the >> same for financial agreements and marriage is the ultimate financial >> agreement. >> It’s unfortunate that our laws cause many of us to enter the contract >> without knowing its conditions. > It is a personal responsibility of an adult

The Whaaaattttt? > to know about the consequences > of any contract they’re entering. I think there’s either a legal precedent, > or some other sort of thing that defines that. > Having your head in the sand and refusing to grow up and pay attention to > things around you or acting irresponsible doesn’t preclude someone from > being seen as legally competent to enter a contract.

Does today.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -DaKitty wrote: > "Casey" <cclremovethisp…@cox.net> wrote in message > news:dwQHd.61557$Wo.39558@lakeread08… >> Curious Mind said >>> Men and women when holding hand and say "love you till death" in front >>> of the judge have little awareness of statistic dictates their marriage >>> is likely fail. Yet, society hides this fact under the rug quite well. >>> They let you sign the a paper to declare you are now lovely married w/o >>> let you that you are signing a legal contract with all legal >>> consequences and complications come with it, in case the marriage >>> fails. >>> Colleges prepare young boy and girl poorly in this regard, they teach >>> history, art, critical thinking, but never mention about divorce rate >>> in Western societies and its social effect and the burdens for divorced >>> people, and offer no marriage preparations. >>> Why no divorce education topic in college? I like to hear from college >>> curricula policy makers in this matter. >> For that matter, think how little marriage education the typical person >> is exposed to before the wedding day.  It would be great if young >> couples were exposed to some realistic expectations before they were >> granted a marriage license. >> It’s a lot harder in the US to get a driver’s license than it is to >> marry and have children. > Why is it that people think that government and society should protect them > from themselves and make up for what their parents didn’t do (raise them > with solid family values)

Because that is the way it is today, Kitty.   (I can explain why, but I’d better not). – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Is the only way to get someone to do the right thing to forbid them doing > the wrong thing? Well, look at prohibitions of various sorts, for the most > part, they don’t work. > In catholic Church there is about 6 months waiting and marriage counseling > before they’ll marry you. I’d rather go to church for spiritual matters, > than your average government clerk… Wouldn’t you?

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -DaKitty wrote: > "Curious Mind" <mindcuri…@yahoo.com> wrote in message > news:1106235629.882577.113570@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com… >> Men and women when holding hand and say "love you till death" in front >> of the judge have little awareness of statistic dictates their marriage >> is likely fail. Yet, society hides this fact under the rug quite well. > Huh? What rock would a person have to be living under to not know the > divorce rate in the US???? >> They let you sign the a paper to declare you are now lovely married w/o >> let you that you are signing a legal contract with all legal >> consequences and complications come with it, in case the marriage >> fails. >> Colleges prepare young boy and girl poorly in this regard, they teach >> history, art, critical thinking, but never mention about divorce rate >> in Western societies and its social effect and the burdens for divorced >> people, and offer no marriage preparations. >> Why no divorce education topic in college? I like to hear from college >> curricula policy makers in this matter. > Parents are supposed to teach kids family values.  Not colleges or

schools. Yup – Well, they USED to, you mean.    Well, ok, that’s quite not fair. Many still do, but a LOT don’t.

Response:

<ba…@psyber.com> wrote in message

news:UhTHd.1113$rc4.974@fe07.usenetserver.com… > I think people should have to read and sign a disclaimer, advising them > of their rights and liabilities before getting married.  We do the > same for financial agreements and marriage is the ultimate financial > agreement. > It’s unfortunate that our laws cause many of us to enter the contract > without knowing its conditions.

It is a personal responsibility of an adult to know about the consequences of any contract they’re entering. I think there’s either a legal precedent, or some other sort of thing that defines that. Having your head in the sand and refusing to grow up and pay attention to things around you or acting irresponsible doesn’t preclude someone from being seen as legally competent to enter a contract.

Response:

"Roger (B)" <rcblinn-s…@bellsouth.net> wrote in message

news:EEQHd.18197$SK6.15371@bignews3.bellsouth.net… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> "Curious Mind" <mindcuri…@yahoo.com> wrote… > | Why no divorce education topic in college? I like to hear > | from college curricula policy makers in this matter. > A better place would be shop class in HS.  :-) > In Florida, before a clerk issues a marriage license, the > parties must certify that they have read a family law > pamphlet prepared by the Florida Bar which covers this > topic is some detail.  But IMO, that doesn’t go far enuff. > Before a ML is issued, there should be a written test > (perhaps a performance test, as well), which examines > the parties both on their relationship skills and their > knowledge of the state’s divorce law.  [R]

I’d never get married with divorce in mind, and would resent the state requiring me to study up on the divorce law.

Response:

"Curious Mind" <mindcuri…@yahoo.com> wrote in message

news:1106235629.882577.113570@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com… > Men and women when holding hand and say "love you till death" in front > of the judge have little awareness of statistic dictates their marriage > is likely fail. Yet, society hides this fact under the rug quite well.

Huh? What rock would a person have to be living under to not know the divorce rate in the US???? > They let you sign the a paper to declare you are now lovely married w/o > let you that you are signing a legal contract with all legal > consequences and complications come with it, in case the marriage > fails. > Colleges prepare young boy and girl poorly in this regard, they teach > history, art, critical thinking, but never mention about divorce rate > in Western societies and its social effect and the burdens for divorced > people, and offer no marriage preparations. > Why no divorce education topic in college? I like to hear from college > curricula policy makers in this matter.

Parents are supposed to teach kids family values. Not colleges or schools.

Response:

"Casey" <cclremovethisp…@cox.net> wrote in message

news:dwQHd.61557$Wo.39558@lakeread08… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Curious Mind said > > Men and women when holding hand and say "love you till death" in front > > of the judge have little awareness of statistic dictates their marriage > > is likely fail. Yet, society hides this fact under the rug quite well. > > They let you sign the a paper to declare you are now lovely married w/o > > let you that you are signing a legal contract with all legal > > consequences and complications come with it, in case the marriage > > fails. > > Colleges prepare young boy and girl poorly in this regard, they teach > > history, art, critical thinking, but never mention about divorce rate > > in Western societies and its social effect and the burdens for divorced > > people, and offer no marriage preparations. > > Why no divorce education topic in college? I like to hear from college > > curricula policy makers in this matter. > For that matter, think how little marriage education the typical person > is exposed to before the wedding day.  It would be great if young > couples were exposed to some realistic expectations before they were > granted a marriage license. > It’s a lot harder in the US to get a driver’s license than it is to > marry and have children.

Why is it that people think that government and society should protect them from themselves and make up for what their parents didn’t do (raise them with solid family values) Is the only way to get someone to do the right thing to forbid them doing the wrong thing? Well, look at prohibitions of various sorts, for the most part, they don’t work. In catholic Church there is about 6 months waiting and marriage counseling before they’ll marry you. I’d rather go to church for spiritual matters, than your average government clerk… Wouldn’t you?

Response:

"Joy" <j…@joydoesntlikespam.com> wrote:

| "Roger (B)" <rcblinn-s…@bellsouth.net> wrote… | > Before a ML is issued, there should be a written test | > (perhaps a performance test, as well), | Performance test?  What did you have in mind? | (Gotta get my mind out of the gutter.) ————————– Why?  Kind’a like a driving test to see how they handle the signs, stop & go, stay within the lines, back up and parallel park.  ;-)  But perhaps an essay would suffice. For the Groom:  Assume that you like football and think that your prospective in-laws are a waste of time.  Your wife enters the room wearing baggy clothes, no makeup, hair in curlers, and says, "Just so you’ll know, we’ll be having dinner at my mother’s every Sunday from now on, even during football."  You respond… For the Bride:  Assume that you’ve just spend a lot of money on clothes for your prospective husband and your mother has just had a serious operation.  Your husband enters room wearing torn, grease-stained T-shirt, stretched out by his gut, and says, "I can’t go with you to see your mother in the hospital, ‘cuz me and my buddies are going mud-bogging this weekend. If she dies, I’ll have the cell." You respond… Note to Clerk:  If they both say, ""F*ck that sh*t," "No way in hell," or the like, they are compatible.  If only one says that and the other says, "Hon, let’s talk about this," then no license.  [R]

Response:

Joy said – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> "Roger (B)" <rcblinn-s…@bellsouth.net> wrote in message > news:EEQHd.18197$SK6.15371@bignews3.bellsouth.net… > > "Curious Mind" <mindcuri…@yahoo.com> wrote… > > | Why no divorce education topic in college? I like to hear > > | from college curricula policy makers in this matter. > > A better place would be shop class in HS.  :-) > > In Florida, before a clerk issues a marriage license, the > > parties must certify that they have read a family law > > pamphlet prepared by the Florida Bar which covers this > > topic is some detail.  But IMO, that doesn’t go far enuff. > > Before a ML is issued, there should be a written test > > (perhaps a performance test, as well), > Performance test?  What did you have in mind?  (Gotta get my mind out of the > gutter.)

I feel better now … I almost pounced on that one too. Casey

Response:

"Roger (B)" <rcblinn-s…@bellsouth.net> wrote in message

news:EEQHd.18197$SK6.15371@bignews3.bellsouth.net… > "Curious Mind" <mindcuri…@yahoo.com> wrote… > | Why no divorce education topic in college? I like to hear > | from college curricula policy makers in this matter. > A better place would be shop class in HS.  :-) > In Florida, before a clerk issues a marriage license, the > parties must certify that they have read a family law > pamphlet prepared by the Florida Bar which covers this > topic is some detail.  But IMO, that doesn’t go far enuff. > Before a ML is issued, there should be a written test > (perhaps a performance test, as well),

Performance test?  What did you have in mind?  (Gotta get my mind out of the gutter.) which examines – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> the parties both on their relationship skills and their > knowledge of the state’s divorce law.  [R]

Response:

"Curious Mind" <mindcuri…@yahoo.com> wrote in message

news:1106235629.882577.113570@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com… > Yet, society hides this fact under the rug quite well. > They let you …

who are "they"?

Response:

Perhaps, instead of a course on divorce….. (I dont think its up to the colleges to teach us about marriage, and Ive seen how colleges can complicate the shit out of the simplest of things) PERHAPS We teach our kids about promises, committment, the seriousness of vows before God, being Un-selfish, and, while we are at it, a work ethic, values, etc. I think that would cure the divorce rate, more then any course. Storm "Curious Mind" <mindcuri…@yahoo.com> wrote in message

news:1106235629.882577.113570@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Men and women when holding hand and say "love you till death" in front > of the judge have little awareness of statistic dictates their marriage > is likely fail. Yet, society hides this fact under the rug quite well. > They let you sign the a paper to declare you are now lovely married w/o > let you that you are signing a legal contract with all legal > consequences and complications come with it, in case the marriage > fails. > Colleges prepare young boy and girl poorly in this regard, they teach > history, art, critical thinking, but never mention about divorce rate > in Western societies and its social effect and the burdens for divorced > people, and offer no marriage preparations. > Why no divorce education topic in college? I like to hear from college > curricula policy makers in this matter.

Response:

Because women don’t want men to know about it, as it would less female power to attract men into men, and lessen female ability to extract male wealth in divorce court. Women are children, and should not vote. ————————————————————————— —— On 20 Jan 2005 07:40:29 -0800, "Curious Mind" <mindcuri…@yahoo.com> wrote: – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->Men and women when holding hand and say "love you till death" in front >of the judge have little awareness of statistic dictates their marriage >is likely fail. Yet, society hides this fact under the rug quite well. >They let you sign the a paper to declare you are now lovely married w/o >let you that you are signing a legal contract with all legal >consequences and complications come with it, in case the marriage >fails. >Colleges prepare young boy and girl poorly in this regard, they teach >history, art, critical thinking, but never mention about divorce rate >in Western societies and its social effect and the burdens for divorced >people, and offer no marriage preparations. >Why no divorce education topic in college? I like to hear from college >curricula policy makers in this matter.

Response:

‘Colleges prepare young boy and girl poorly in this regard, they teach history, art, critical thinking, but never mention about divorce rate in Western societies and its social effect and the burdens for divorced people, and offer no marriage preparations. ‘ There needs to be mandatory classes regarding Marriage , raising children, et al…IN HIGH SCHOOL  and in College. Further,  our government needs to step in and demand (with severe penalties) that Hollywood stop idealizing marriage , as well as promoting adultery as a fun permissable adventure.

Response:

‘Why no divorce education topic in college? I like to hear from college curricula policy makers in this matter.’ There should be asap.  Further,  everyone should be mandated to take formal classes before marriage is granted…including Premarital Counselling.  Drastic statistics demand drastic changes.

Response:

DN B wrote: > ‘Colleges prepare young boy and girl poorly in this regard, they teach > history, art, critical thinking, but never mention about divorce rate in > Western societies and its social effect and the burdens for divorced > people, and offer no marriage preparations. ‘ > There needs to be mandatory classes regarding Marriage , raising > children, et al…IN HIGH SCHOOL  and in College. Further,  our > government needs to step in and demand (with severe penalties) that > Hollywood stop idealizing marriage , as well as promoting adultery as a > fun permissable adventure.

Now, now, that can’t happen in this Enlightened Age!     We’ve become more spoiled, and accustomed to sleeze.    Can’t get enough of it!    And then there is Jerry Springer. et al!

Response:

"Casey" <cclremovethisp…@cox.net> wrote in message

news:dwQHd.61557$Wo.39558@lakeread08… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Curious Mind said > > Men and women when holding hand and say "love you till death" in front > > of the judge have little awareness of statistic dictates their marriage > > is likely fail. Yet, society hides this fact under the rug quite well. > > They let you sign the a paper to declare you are now lovely married w/o > > let you that you are signing a legal contract with all legal > > consequences and complications come with it, in case the marriage > > fails. > > Colleges prepare young boy and girl poorly in this regard, they teach > > history, art, critical thinking, but never mention about divorce rate > > in Western societies and its social effect and the burdens for divorced > > people, and offer no marriage preparations. > > Why no divorce education topic in college? I like to hear from college > > curricula policy makers in this matter. > For that matter, think how little marriage education the typical person > is exposed to before the wedding day.  It would be great if young > couples were exposed to some realistic expectations before they were > granted a marriage license. > It’s a lot harder in the US to get a driver’s license than it is to > marry and have children.

I shudder to think who would develop that curriculum and administer that program. Perhaps I could get with that program if it were not done during this administration. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Casey

Response:

Curious Mind said > Men and women when holding hand and say "love you till death" in front > of the judge have little awareness of statistic dictates their marriage > is likely fail. Yet, society hides this fact under the rug quite well. > They let you sign the a paper to declare you are now lovely married w/o > let you that you are signing a legal contract with all legal > consequences and complications come with it, in case the marriage > fails. > Colleges prepare young boy and girl poorly in this regard, they teach > history, art, critical thinking, but never mention about divorce rate > in Western societies and its social effect and the burdens for divorced > people, and offer no marriage preparations. > Why no divorce education topic in college? I like to hear from college > curricula policy makers in this matter.

For that matter, think how little marriage education the typical person is exposed to before the wedding day.  It would be great if young couples were exposed to some realistic expectations before they were granted a marriage license. It’s a lot harder in the US to get a driver’s license than it is to marry and have children.   Casey

Response:

"Curious Mind" <mindcuri…@yahoo.com> wrote…

| Why no divorce education topic in college? I like to hear | from college curricula policy makers in this matter. A better place would be shop class in HS.  :-) In Florida, before a clerk issues a marriage license, the parties must certify that they have read a family law pamphlet prepared by the Florida Bar which covers this topic is some detail.  But IMO, that doesn’t go far enuff. Before a ML is issued, there should be a written test (perhaps a performance test, as well), which examines the parties both on their relationship skills and their knowledge of the state’s divorce law.  [R]

Response:

"Curious Mind" <mindcuri…@yahoo.com> wrote in message

news:1106235629.882577.113570@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com… > Men and women when holding hand and say "love you till death" in front > of the judge have little awareness of statistic dictates their marriage > is likely fail. Yet, society hides this fact under the rug quite well. > They let you sign the a paper to declare you are now lovely married w/o > let you that you are signing a legal contract with all legal > consequences and complications come with it, in case the marriage > fails.

"They" let you get a credit card too. Who is "they" and what are "they" responsible for? > Colleges prepare young boy and girl poorly in this regard, they teach > history, art, critical thinking, but never mention about divorce rate > in Western societies and its social effect and the burdens for divorced > people, and offer no marriage preparations. > Why no divorce education topic in college? I like to hear from college > curricula policy makers in this matter.

The basics are supposed to be covered in high school since by college people pick and choose their learning goals. That’s why they call it higher education. Lots of schools have civics and social studies classes. Do you know for sure it is *not* taught? Young people are known for their eternal optimism.

Response:

Men and women when holding hand and say "love you till death" in front of the judge have little awareness of statistic dictates their marriage is likely fail. Yet, society hides this fact under the rug quite well. They let you sign the a paper to declare you are now lovely married w/o let you that you are signing a legal contract with all legal consequences and complications come with it, in case the marriage fails. Colleges prepare young boy and girl poorly in this regard, they teach history, art, critical thinking, but never mention about divorce rate in Western societies and its social effect and the burdens for divorced people, and offer no marriage preparations. Why no divorce education topic in college? I like to hear from college curricula policy makers in this matter.

Response:

I am also loosing it….

Question:

It’s interesting that you mention this, since I always try and breathe more than I usually would, even in normal situations. Tony Robbins devotes and entire session of his self-help CD’s to "teaching" one how to breathe. Not really how to breathe as much as reminding yourself to breathe and not deprive your blood and therefore brain of the oxygen it needs. Even those not suffering from anxiety or other disorders fail to breathe properly and suffer decreased memory, cognitive skills, and just plain old energy. When I’m really stressing, my intent is to back off and take a few breaths, and assess the situation. This simple process reminds me that most anxiety causing issues really aren’t sufficient to "deserve" to cause anxiety, and they disappear-generally. (Generally) PS: It’s just a big party. Dose up and start the day telling yourself that you WILL enjoy this event. There is no rational reason not to have a good time. Remind yourself and convince yourself-it’s true isn’t it? Good Luck! I hope you had a good session with your therapist today — and that you got some good advice.  My only piece of advice is this:  don’t forget to breathe.  That may not seem helpful at this moment, but it can come in handy later on. Deirdre

– The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

Response:

<gently snipped ::I’m feeling somewhat better about my daughters step father also walking ::her down the aisle with me.  I don’t have anything against the guy, it ::just caught me off guard.  I’m thinking of suggesting to my daughter ::that when we get to the end of the aisle, I shake his hand before he ::sits down. That IS real classy thing to do. I bet everyone will feel good about it Jackie ~*~Nature made us individuals, as she did the flowers and the pebbles; but we are afraid to be peculiar, and so our society resembles a bag of marbles, or a string of mold candles. Why should we all dress after the same fashion? The frost never paints my windows twice alike~*~     ~~ Lydia Maria Child — The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

Response:

Hi Tony: Sorry I’m late in acknowledging your post.  I did read it and my heart really goes out to you.  IMO, anticipatory anxiety is worse that an actual panic attack.  I think we all can relate to what you are saying.  The attack eases up but the anticipatory anxiety seems to increase as we near the time when we think that we can’t control what happens and we ALWAYS think the worst. I’ve had the "you can’t do this or you can’t do that" anxiety monkey whispering in my mind’s ear for over 40 years and I can truthfully say the worse senerio the monkey tries to build in your mind very rarely, if ever happens.  The "stinkin thinkin" is just that.  Course words don’t seem to help chase it away, do they? I finally got to the point where I thot the anxicipatory anxiety I was experiencing in my job was going to put me in an early grave.  I would have anticipatory anxiety for months ahead of the day when I knew I would have to attend a 2 day workshop/staff meeting and speak in front of people (my absolute worst fear).  I finally had had enough and went into my boss and told he NO, I’m not can’t do it, I’m phobic beyond all reason and I’ve been receiving treatment for it.  That NO and explanation why (hidden for so long) made the anxiety fall away like layers off an onion.  The next time the monkey reared its ugly presence,  I just said f*ck it — come and get me you rotten anxiety monkey and get it over with. The monkey  didn’t seem to know how to react.  It kind of went and hid. When you look the anxiety in the face and tell it do it’s worst, it runs away.  Sooooooo instead of continuing to throw words at you, I have this advise, don’t give a chit about what YOU think others may be thinking of you cause you can never know what they are thinking, nor should you care.  Just go with the flow — follow your gut. No one will fault you for trying to take care of your health if you don’t follow a rigid script.  Give yourself the permission to say NO and accept that you have an illness that needs taking care of.  To hell with everyone else.  Trust me, your daughter’s wedding will be just great and you’ll be fine. I wish you good luck, send you vibes of strength and am interested to read what the pdoc had to offer you on your current visit. -frizz — The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

Response:

Sorry I can’t reply to each of you individually, it would take me hours (this reply has taken about an hour)(no, over an hour).  Damn OCD! I just want to thank everyone for the support and tips and all that. Going to the bluegrass event again still has me worked up and I’ve been taking 2mgs of ativan/day PRN which I seldom take normally.  (that is on top of 5mgs of klonopin)  I’m afraid it’s paranoia and not anxiety, and that’s why it isn’t helping. My Dr. appointment went OK except for the fact that he also thinks it’s paranoia, not anxiety.  So he increased my Seroquel from 500mg to 600mg/day.  :-(  We were going to try to let me to learn how to handle the paranoia instead of increasing the meds, but I have a difficult time learning, especially under recent conditions.  Maybe being more medicated will give me a chance to learn how to cope without so much meds?  Or maybe I’ll just be a zombie?  Actually I took the higher dose last night and I have managed to get out of bed and be semi functional today.  I may also change the way I was taking it, which was a small dose in the AM, and in the PM, then a large dose at bedtime.  I may try taking it all at bedtime (which is the ‘normal’ way of taking it for most people).  The only reason I was taking it 3X a day was to ward off the Seroquel shakes, so I’ll just have to see what happens. The therapist appointment was OK.  There were no big breakthroughs except she drilled it into my head that I can call her cell phone ANYTIME.  If she doesn’t answer I should leave a message.  She did tell me that I could meet her at any church during the day and she would go in with me.  That’s nice but I told her that I have no problem with an empty church, it’s probably not even the church I’m phobic of, it’s the people in it!  I never realized that before. I’m feeling somewhat better about my daughters step father also walking her down the aisle with me.  I don’t have anything against the guy, it just caught me off guard.  I’m thinking of suggesting to my daughter that when we get to the end of the aisle, I shake his hand before he sits down. That’s all for now! Thanks everyone, Tony – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – My Daughter has been making wonderful progress planning her wedding ahead of time.  It looks like Friday Sept. 22 will be the wedding and reception.  That is in 6 weeks. I’m a nervous wreck.  I keep worrying about passing out in church, but I did get word that there will not be a church service, just the marriage.  :-) Whooo Hooooo!!!!!! She also told me that she will tell the (catholic) priest that no way are they to get out that stinky incense.  That is a giant trigger for me.  I’ll either be passed out or be running out the door! The anxiety is worse every day. I’m also having a problem coping with one part of the wedding.  She asked me how I felt about asking her stepfather to walk her down the isle with one of us on each side.  Then he would sit down and I would stay with her to give her away. She asked me how I would feel and I told her it will make me very uncomfortable, but it is *her* wedding.  So she asked him to do it anyway.  Shit, why bother asking me at all? The other part that makes it all so difficult is my paranoia.  I have problems thinking people are talking about me.  So now having him in the wedding a little bit just makes me think of more stories people will tell.  I guess I’m thinking they will say that I wasn’t a good father or something, I really don’t know.  All I know is that it is slightly different than the norm, so therefore it makes me more anxious/paranoid. Tomorrow, Friday 11th I will see both Dr. and psychologist so I hope I’ll get some good feedback that I can actually remember. It really sucks that what should be one of the happiest days of my life, (if it goes anything like the rest of my life), will be a LIVING HELL!!!  Yes I know I’m projecting, but no one knows me like I do. I sure don’t want a repeat of my wedding/reception when my anxiety was so bad that I was VERY close to walking into a moving car just so I could get a ride to the hospital and away from the reception. I already know that all the pills in the world won’t fix things, I’ve tried taking more and then I just worry about being f’ed up.

– Tony — The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

Response:

At my step sisters wedding we had her mother and two step mothers and father and step father.  Both fathers walked her down the isle.

That’s cool, I’m no longer dreading *that part* anymore! The wedding was a great success!  And so has the marriage been.

That’s good to hear also! We have such a high divorce rate that the part about "until death do us part" is pretty much a joke. — Tony — The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

Response:

<gently snipped ::I’m feeling somewhat better about my daughters step father also walking ::her down the aisle with me.  I don’t have anything against the guy, it ::just caught me off guard.  I’m thinking of suggesting to my daughter ::that when we get to the end of the aisle, I shake his hand before he ::sits down. That IS real classy thing to do. I bet everyone will feel good about it

Thanks.  I told my daughter and she seemed as if she didn’t understand why, but that it’s fine with her.  Minutes later her mother called me with some questions and I mentioned it to her.  She was also surprised, in fact she thought I may hate the whole idea.  I told her that it took me by surprise and I was a little upset at first, but the more I thought about it, the better it looked. — Tony — The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

Response:

[...] My Dr. appointment went OK except for the fact that he also thinks it’s paranoia, not anxiety.  So he increased my Seroquel from 500mg to 600mg/day.  :-(  We were going to try to let me to learn how to handle the paranoia instead of increasing the meds, but I have a difficult time learning, especially under recent conditions.  Maybe being more medicated will give me a chance to learn how to cope without so much meds?  Or maybe I’ll just be a zombie?  Actually I took the higher dose last night and I have managed to get out of bed and be semi functional today.  I may also change the way I was taking it, which was a small dose in the AM, and in the PM, then a large dose at bedtime.  I may try taking it all at bedtime (which is the ‘normal’ way of taking it for most people).  The only reason I was taking it 3X a day was to ward off the Seroquel shakes, so I’ll just have to see what happens.

Hope the med change helps Tony! If the night time dosing doesn’t work you can always go back to having a morning dose. The therapist appointment was OK.  There were no big breakthroughs except she drilled it into my head that I can call her cell phone ANYTIME.  If she doesn’t answer I should leave a message.  She did tell me that I could meet her at any church during the day and she would go in with me.  That’s nice but I told her that I have no problem with an empty church, it’s probably not even the church I’m phobic of, it’s the people in it!  I never realized that before.

She really sounds like a keeper! It might help you to walk around the church a few times anyway even if it’s the people that you’re phobic of… I’m usually better able to deal with anxiety in a familiar setting. I’m feeling somewhat better about my daughters step father also walking her down the aisle with me.  I don’t have anything against the guy, it just caught me off guard.  I’m thinking of suggesting to my daughter that when we get to the end of the aisle, I shake his hand before he sits down.

Now that is a brilliant idea, I really like it! Mature men in similar situations will make this standard practise, I’m sure… acknowledging each other’s role in the bride’s life kind of thing. — Vashti — The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

Response:

A schreef: I’m feeling somewhat better about my daughters step father also walking her down the aisle with me.  I don’t have anything against the guy, it just caught me off guard.  I’m thinking of suggesting to my daughter that when we get to the end of the aisle, I shake his hand before he sits down. Tony, what a wonderful gesture!  I am really impressed that you thought of this… your daughter will be very pleased, too, I’m sure. Bravo. xxoo Anne

I want to echo this sentiment. You’re a great guy, Tony (well, what else is new?) I’m sure you will manage allright, So often the anticipatory anxiety is worse than the actual event. Others have already spoke words of wisdom about this so I’ll keep my trap shut for now… Philip — The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

Response:

Hi, Tono, I hope the med increase helps you.  You are sounding stressed???? Yes, I’m incredibly stressed.  I can’t help projecting that my daughters marriage will be like mine did twice.  The worry is getting to be a little less, but it’s still on my mind every day.  Just now I realized I am never telling myself that they will live "happily ever after".  I suppose if I can get my head to stop sabotaging any good thoughts I may get a break in the stress.  I’ll be working on it.

***Keep working on it…  Your daughter is old enough to make this decision. You can’t let your past determine what could happen in your daughter’s life. Enjoy listening ot her preparation for the wedding and deep breathe.  It’s mostly on her shoulders and you only have to show up…<g The other big stress is the wedding itself.  Imagining myself all wrapped up in a tux and standing in church, I can’t help thinking I will pass out. It wouldn’t be the first time.  I have to remember not to lock my knees!

***Sure it’s a stressor.  It is for everyone and most father’s feel the anxiety you feel.  So you must be normal!!! "I’m thinking of suggesting to my daughter that when we get to the end of the aisle, I shake his hand before he sits down" – WOW, what can I say but that’ classy!!!!! Hmm… classy huh?  Well then I hope my daughter likes the idea.  For me it will take some of the edge off.  I don’t know why, or how to describe it, but it will for some reason make me feel more at ease.  I never had a big problem with the guy, hell, if he can put up with my Ex then he’s doing good!  ;-)

***I’m sure your daughter will love the idea and be very proud of you for presenting it to her. smiles, Elise — Tony — The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

– The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

Response:

Hi, Tono, Like Ron said fathers of the bride fade into the background and while walking down the aisle people are focused on the bride and her dress… smiles, Elise

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – One thing to keep telling yourself Tony is that it is your daughter’s day and not yours. If there is going to be any talking going on it will be about her and not you. Brides are always the centre of attention and we fathers fade very quickly into the background. In my case, being the "proud papa" took care of most of my anxiety as it changed my focus from me to her. It would appear that your daughter has taken steps to make you as comfortable as possible and that is a good thing. Good luck Tony. — Ron P The trouble with sitting on the fence is getting pickets up the butt — The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

– The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

Response:

Hi Tony: Sounds as tho you’re making some progress.  The idea of the handshake at the end of the isle at your daughter’s wedding is GREAT.  Just for you to be able to think that up should have you patting yourself on the back.  WTG. I’m kind of curious about why you and/or your doc may believe that its not anxiety but paranoia from which you suffer.  IMO, the literature shows that there is a clear difference between paranoia and panick attacks. Paranoia can be present during a panic attack but I think that a diagnosis of paranoia would include forms of delusion, (i.e. the belief [usually a very strong one and long lasting] that someone is actively "out to get you."  Not just what YOU think someone may be thinking about you.  That is just projecting your own thinking onto others (something quite different)  Plus, the person who is paranoid usually is not aware of the fact he/she is paranoid and is sure that his/her paranoia is a true reflection of reality. Is this the way you feel?  I don’t seem to be getting a clear picture here.  Maybe its just me too now understand correctly. You’ll have fun at the Bluegrass event (even tho you may not think so before hand).  Good luck with the med. adjustments.  Keep posting here as often as you can in order to keep the good vibes flowing from your fellow sufferes.   -frizz — The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

Response:

Hi, Tono, I hope the med increase helps you.  You are sounding stressed???? "I’m thinking of suggesting to my daughter that when we get to the end of the aisle, I shake his hand before he sits down" – WOW, what can I say but that’ classy!!!!! smiles, Elise

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Sorry I can’t reply to each of you individually, it would take me hours (this reply has taken about an hour)(no, over an hour).  Damn OCD! I just want to thank everyone for the support and tips and all that. Going to the bluegrass event again still has me worked up and I’ve been taking 2mgs of ativan/day PRN which I seldom take normally.  (that is on top of 5mgs of klonopin)  I’m afraid it’s paranoia and not anxiety, and that’s why it isn’t helping. My Dr. appointment went OK except for the fact that he also thinks it’s paranoia, not anxiety.  So he increased my Seroquel from 500mg to 600mg/day.  :-(  We were going to try to let me to learn how to handle the paranoia instead of increasing the meds, but I have a difficult time learning, especially under recent conditions.  Maybe being more medicated will give me a chance to learn how to cope without so much meds?  Or maybe I’ll just be a zombie?  Actually I took the higher dose last night and I have managed to get out of bed and be semi functional today.  I may also change the way I was taking it, which was a small dose in the AM, and in the PM, then a large dose at bedtime.  I may try taking it all at bedtime (which is the ‘normal’ way of taking it for most people).  The only reason I was taking it 3X a day was to ward off the Seroquel shakes, so I’ll just have to see what happens. The therapist appointment was OK.  There were no big breakthroughs except she drilled it into my head that I can call her cell phone ANYTIME.  If she doesn’t answer I should leave a message.  She did tell me that I could meet her at any church during the day and she would go in with me.  That’s nice but I told her that I have no problem with an empty church, it’s probably not even the church I’m phobic of, it’s the people in it!  I never realized that before. I’m feeling somewhat better about my daughters step father also walking her down the aisle with me.  I don’t have anything against the guy, it just caught me off guard.  I’m thinking of suggesting to my daughter that when we get to the end of the aisle, I shake his hand before he sits down. That’s all for now! Thanks everyone, Tony My Daughter has been making wonderful progress planning her wedding ahead of time.  It looks like Friday Sept. 22 will be the wedding and reception.  That is in 6 weeks. I’m a nervous wreck.  I keep worrying about passing out in church, but I did get word that there will not be a church service, just the marriage. Whooo Hooooo!!!!!! She also told me that she will tell the (catholic) priest that no way are they to get out that stinky incense.  That is a giant trigger for me. I’ll either be passed out or be running out the door! The anxiety is worse every day. I’m also having a problem coping with one part of the wedding.  She asked me how I felt about asking her stepfather to walk her down the isle with one of us on each side.  Then he would sit down and I would stay with her to give her away. She asked me how I would feel and I told her it will make me very uncomfortable, but it is *her* wedding.  So she asked him to do it anyway.  Shit, why bother asking me at all? The other part that makes it all so difficult is my paranoia.  I have problems thinking people are talking about me.  So now having him in the wedding a little bit just makes me think of more stories people will tell.  I guess I’m thinking they will say that I wasn’t a good father or something, I really don’t know.  All I know is that it is slightly different than the norm, so therefore it makes me more anxious/paranoid. Tomorrow, Friday 11th I will see both Dr. and psychologist so I hope I’ll get some good feedback that I can actually remember. It really sucks that what should be one of the happiest days of my life, (if it goes anything like the rest of my life), will be a LIVING HELL!!! Yes I know I’m projecting, but no one knows me like I do. I sure don’t want a repeat of my wedding/reception when my anxiety was so bad that I was VERY close to walking into a moving car just so I could get a ride to the hospital and away from the reception. I already know that all the pills in the world won’t fix things, I’ve tried taking more and then I just worry about being f’ed up. — Tony — The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

– The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

Response:

Hi Tony: Sounds as tho you’re making some progress.  The idea of the handshake at the end of the isle at your daughter’s wedding is GREAT.  Just for you to be able to think that up should have you patting yourself on the back.  WTG.

Thanks.  Pat, pat, pat. I’m kind of curious about why you and/or your doc may believe that its not anxiety but paranoia from which you suffer.  IMO, the literature shows that there is a clear difference between paranoia and panick attacks.

Actually I have both anxiety/panic, and a separate diagnosis of schizo-affective disorder for many years now.  The schizo whatever is for real.  I won’t get into details, but I’ve had years and years of schizophrenic type symptoms.  Some is just paranoia, and other stuff, ??? made up in my head I guess.  It simply never was as bad as a typical schizophrenic experiences.  Who knows, maybe I have a "mild case" of schizophrenia?  The name doesn’t matter to me, just the treatment. You’ll have fun at the Bluegrass event (even tho you may not think so before hand).  Good luck with the med. adjustments.  Keep posting here as often as you can in order to keep the good vibes flowing from your fellow sufferes.  

Sorry to say the Bluegrass Event is over, and at my therapists last night I figured that I had about 10% enjoyment without worry, 30% bad anxiety/mild paranoia but forced myself to try and enjoy it, and 60% completely wishing I wasn’t there at all.  I left a day early and missed one of my favorite groups. — Tony — The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

Response:

Hi, Tono, I hope the med increase helps you.  You are sounding stressed????

Yes, I’m incredibly stressed.  I can’t help projecting that my daughters marriage will be like mine did twice.  The worry is getting to be a little less, but it’s still on my mind every day.  Just now I realized I am never telling myself that they will live "happily ever after".  I suppose if I can get my head to stop sabotaging any good thoughts I may get a break in the stress.  I’ll be working on it. The other big stress is the wedding itself.  Imagining myself all wrapped up in a tux and standing in church, I can’t help thinking I will pass out.  It wouldn’t be the first time.  I have to remember not to lock my knees! "I’m thinking of suggesting to my daughter that when we get to the end of the aisle, I shake his hand before he sits down" – WOW, what can I say but that’ classy!!!!!

Hmm… classy huh?  Well then I hope my daughter likes the idea.  For me it will take some of the edge off.  I don’t know why, or how to describe it, but it will for some reason make me feel more at ease.  I never had a big problem with the guy, hell, if he can put up with my Ex then he’s doing good!  ;-) — Tony — The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

Response:

I’m feeling somewhat better about my daughters step father also walking her down the aisle with me.  I don’t have anything against the guy, it just caught me off guard.  I’m thinking of suggesting to my daughter that when we get to the end of the aisle, I shake his hand before he sits down.

Tony, what a wonderful gesture!  I am really impressed that you thought of this… your daughter will be very pleased, too, I’m sure. Bravo. xxoo Anne — The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – My Daughter has been making wonderful progress planning her wedding ahead of time.  It looks like Friday Sept. 22 will be the wedding and reception. That is in 6 weeks. I’m a nervous wreck.  I keep worrying about passing out in church, but I did get word that there will not be a church service, just the marriage. Whooo Hooooo!!!!!! She also told me that she will tell the (catholic) priest that no way are they to get out that stinky incense.  That is a giant trigger for me. I’ll either be passed out or be running out the door! The anxiety is worse every day. I’m also having a problem coping with one part of the wedding.  She asked me how I felt about asking her stepfather to walk her down the isle with one of us on each side.  Then he would sit down and I would stay with her to give her away. She asked me how I would feel and I told her it will make me very uncomfortable, but it is *her* wedding.  So she asked him to do it anyway. Shit, why bother asking me at all? The other part that makes it all so difficult is my paranoia.  I have problems thinking people are talking about me.  So now having him in the wedding a little bit just makes me think of more stories people will tell. I guess I’m thinking they will say that I wasn’t a good father or something, I really don’t know.  All I know is that it is slightly different than the norm, so therefore it makes me more anxious/paranoid. Tomorrow, Friday 11th I will see both Dr. and psychologist so I hope I’ll get some good feedback that I can actually remember. It really sucks that what should be one of the happiest days of my life, (if it goes anything like the rest of my life), will be a LIVING HELL!!! Yes I know I’m projecting, but no one knows me like I do. I sure don’t want a repeat of my wedding/reception when my anxiety was so bad that I was VERY close to walking into a moving car just so I could get a ride to the hospital and away from the reception. I already know that all the pills in the world won’t fix things, I’ve tried taking more and then I just worry about being f’ed up. — Tony Tony,

One thing to keep telling yourself Tony is that it is your daughter’s day and not yours. If there is going to be any talking going on it will be about her and not you. Brides are always the centre of attention and we fathers fade very quickly into the background. In my case, being the "proud papa" took care of most of my anxiety as it changed my focus from me to her. It would appear that your daughter has taken steps to make you as comfortable as possible and that is a good thing. Good luck Tony. — Ron P The trouble with sitting on the fence is getting pickets up the butt — The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – My Daughter has been making wonderful progress planning her wedding ahead of time.  It looks like Friday Sept. 22 will be the wedding and reception.  That is in 6 weeks. I’m a nervous wreck.  I keep worrying about passing out in church, but I did get word that there will not be a church service, just the marriage.   Whooo Hooooo!!!!!! She also told me that she will tell the (catholic) priest that no way are they to get out that stinky incense.  That is a giant trigger for me.  I’ll either be passed out or be running out the door! The anxiety is worse every day. I’m also having a problem coping with one part of the wedding.  She asked me how I felt about asking her stepfather to walk her down the isle with one of us on each side.  Then he would sit down and I would stay with her to give her away. She asked me how I would feel and I told her it will make me very uncomfortable, but it is *her* wedding.  So she asked him to do it anyway.  Shit, why bother asking me at all? The other part that makes it all so difficult is my paranoia.  I have problems thinking people are talking about me.  So now having him in the wedding a little bit just makes me think of more stories people will tell.  I guess I’m thinking they will say that I wasn’t a good father or something, I really don’t know.  All I know is that it is slightly different than the norm, so therefore it makes me more anxious/paranoid. Tomorrow, Friday 11th I will see both Dr. and psychologist so I hope I’ll get some good feedback that I can actually remember. It really sucks that what should be one of the happiest days of my life, (if it goes anything like the rest of my life), will be a LIVING HELL!!!   Yes I know I’m projecting, but no one knows me like I do. I sure don’t want a repeat of my wedding/reception when my anxiety was so bad that I was VERY close to walking into a moving car just so I could get a ride to the hospital and away from the reception. I already know that all the pills in the world won’t fix things, I’ve tried taking more and then I just worry about being f’ed up. — Tony

I hope you had a good session with your therapist today — and that you got some good advice.  My only piece of advice is this:  don’t forget to breathe.  That may not seem helpful at this moment, but it can come in handy later on. Deirdre — The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – My Daughter has been making wonderful progress planning her wedding ahead of time.  It looks like Friday Sept. 22 will be the wedding and reception.  That is in 6 weeks. I’m a nervous wreck.  I keep worrying about passing out in church, but I did get word that there will not be a church service, just the marriage.   Whooo Hooooo!!!!!! She also told me that she will tell the (catholic) priest that no way are they to get out that stinky incense.  That is a giant trigger for me.  I’ll either be passed out or be running out the door! The anxiety is worse every day. I’m also having a problem coping with one part of the wedding.  She asked me how I felt about asking her stepfather to walk her down the isle with one of us on each side.  Then he would sit down and I would stay with her to give her away. She asked me how I would feel and I told her it will make me very uncomfortable, but it is *her* wedding.  So she asked him to do it anyway.  Shit, why bother asking me at all? The other part that makes it all so difficult is my paranoia.  I have problems thinking people are talking about me.  So now having him in the wedding a little bit just makes me think of more stories people will tell.  I guess I’m thinking they will say that I wasn’t a good father or something, I really don’t know.  All I know is that it is slightly different than the norm, so therefore it makes me more anxious/paranoid. Tomorrow, Friday 11th I will see both Dr. and psychologist so I hope I’ll get some good feedback that I can actually remember. It really sucks that what should be one of the happiest days of my life, (if it goes anything like the rest of my life), will be a LIVING HELL!!!   Yes I know I’m projecting, but no one knows me like I do. I sure don’t want a repeat of my wedding/reception when my anxiety was so bad that I was VERY close to walking into a moving car just so I could get a ride to the hospital and away from the reception. I already know that all the pills in the world won’t fix things, I’ve tried taking more and then I just worry about being f’ed up. — Tony

Tony.. I bet Rita remembers my freak out on the fact I had to walk down the aisle at my son’s wedding. He had over 300 guests – SRO and churches are probably the biggest trigger of all triggers for my panic. Oh boy.. I just had fits over this. Not only a church – a crowded church and I had to WALK down an AISLE. I was certain I would fall or something horrible would happen. Just sure of it. Turned out to be the best..I mean the BEST night of my life. I was never ever so proud. If I live to be 200, I will never have a happier one.  That’s the truth.  You take your meds. More than the usual if you need to.. you’ll do fine, and you will enjoy yourself. Just wait and see. Sally (who’s glad she had male children when it comes to weddings.) — The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

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Hi, Tono,

My Daughter has been making wonderful progress planning her wedding ahead of time.  It looks like Friday Sept. 22 will be the wedding and reception. That is in 6 weeks. I’m a nervous wreck.  I keep worrying about passing out in church, but I did get word that there will not be a church service, just the marriage. Whooo Hooooo!!!!!!

***If it’s only a marriage ceremony then it  won’t take long.  Keep telling yourself you’ll be in and out in no time.  I worried a lot about the church part with my daughter’s weddig and it was a formal Catholic church wedding. Upped my meds for the day and I was fine.  No one would hav ever known that I suffer with anxiety.  Prior to the mass, I was too busy with little details.  Do you have a safe person with you in the family who can help you with this? She also told me that she will tell the (catholic) priest that no way are they to get out that stinky incense.  That is a giant trigger for me. I’ll either be passed out or be running out the door!

***Well there’s a positive.  That smell is horrendous. The anxiety is worse every day.

***One day at a time…  Up the meds when needed!!! I’m also having a problem coping with one part of the wedding.  She asked me how I felt about asking her stepfather to walk her down the isle with one of us on each side.  Then he would sit down and I would stay with her to give her away. She asked me how I would feel and I told her it will make me very uncomfortable, but it is *her* wedding.  So she asked him to do it anyway. Shit, why bother asking me at all?

***True, it is her wedding and I lost a few times with the way I would have liked things to be done but all in all, she’s "da bride".  You get the true honor of giving her away.  Try to focus on this positive thing.  Many young women are faced with this dilema today.  I found out that letting my daughter do it her way worked out the best to keep the stress down.   It will be a wonderful occassion for you no matter if her stepfather is involved.  She’s your daughter… The other part that makes it all so difficult is my paranoia.  I have problems thinking people are talking about me.  So now having him in the wedding a little bit just makes me think of more stories people will tell. I guess I’m thinking they will say that I wasn’t a good father or something, I really don’t know.  All I know is that it is slightly different than the norm, so therefore it makes me more anxious/paranoid.

***You’ll be so wrapped up in watching her get married and then moving on to the reception that you won’t have time to be bothered with what you think other people are saying.  And if they do, who gives a frog’s fat fart…<g Tomorrow, Friday 11th I will see both Dr. and psychologist so I hope I’ll get some good feedback that I can actually remember.

***How did your appointments go today?  Were you able to make any headway with the wedding issues? Tono, believe me, you’ll be fine and other members of your family will be there.  Simply implant yourself with them during most of the pre-wedding and reception.  It will go by so quickly and at some point you’ll wish you could do it all over again. It really sucks that what should be one of the happiest days of my life, (if it goes anything like the rest of my life), will be a LIVING HELL!!! Yes I know I’m projecting, but no one knows me like I do.

***Quit the stinkin’ thinking.  You will do well.  At some point prior to the service and at the reception step back and scan over the view of what’s going on.  Hubby and I did this a few times so we could get some vivid memories of the wedding. I sure don’t want a repeat of my wedding/reception when my anxiety was so bad that I was VERY close to walking into a moving car just so I could get a ride to the hospital and away from the reception.

***The focus will be on your daughter and future SIL.  People more or less forget you’re even there except to say "hi" and "what a lovely wedding it is", etc…  Just smile and agree with them. I already know that all the pills in the world won’t fix things, I’ve tried taking more and then I just worry about being f’ed up.

***YOU’LL BE FINE!!!  I had some of the same worries and am still living. Vent all you need to. smiles, Elise — Tony — The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

– The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

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<gently snipped ::Tomorrow, Friday 11th I will see both Dr. and psychologist so I hope ::I’ll get some good feedback that I can actually remember. :: ::It really sucks that what should be one of the happiest days of my life, ::(if it goes anything like the rest of my life), will be a LIVING HELL!!! ::  Yes I know I’m projecting, but no one knows me like I do. :: ::I sure don’t want a repeat of my wedding/reception when my anxiety was ::so bad that I was VERY close to walking into a moving car just so I ::could get a ride to the hospital and away from the reception. :: ::I already know that all the pills in the world won’t fix things, I’ve ::tried taking more and then I just worry about being f’ed up. Dear Tony, I understand how terrifying it is to have an event such as this to attend when your anxiety is already sky high. No matter how bad you think it will be, or how it really turns out, you will survive it. That`s what I tell myself in those ‘have to’ situations where I am pretty sure it is going to be a nightmare. I do hope you will be able to enjoy at least some of your daughters special day. Like Anne said, make sure to have lots of ‘outs’. I hope you got some good advice form your psychologist today. Let us know how you are doing. (((((Tony))))) Jackie ~*~Nature made us individuals, as she did the flowers and the pebbles; but we are afraid to be peculiar, and so our society resembles a bag of marbles, or a string of mold candles. Why should we all dress after the same fashion? The frost never paints my windows twice alike~*~     ~~ Lydia Maria Child — The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – My Daughter has been making wonderful progress planning her wedding ahead of time.  It looks like Friday Sept. 22 will be the wedding and reception. That is in 6 weeks. I’m a nervous wreck.  I keep worrying about passing out in church, but I did get word that there will not be a church service, just the marriage. Whooo Hooooo!!!!!! She also told me that she will tell the (catholic) priest that no way are they to get out that stinky incense.  That is a giant trigger for me. I’ll either be passed out or be running out the door! The anxiety is worse every day. I’m also having a problem coping with one part of the wedding.  She asked me how I felt about asking her stepfather to walk her down the isle with one of us on each side.  Then he would sit down and I would stay with her to give her away. She asked me how I would feel and I told her it will make me very uncomfortable, but it is *her* wedding.  So she asked him to do it anyway. Shit, why bother asking me at all? The other part that makes it all so difficult is my paranoia.  I have problems thinking people are talking about me.  So now having him in the wedding a little bit just makes me think of more stories people will tell. I guess I’m thinking they will say that I wasn’t a good father or something, I really don’t know.  All I know is that it is slightly different than the norm, so therefore it makes me more anxious/paranoid. Tomorrow, Friday 11th I will see both Dr. and psychologist so I hope I’ll get some good feedback that I can actually remember. It really sucks that what should be one of the happiest days of my life, (if it goes anything like the rest of my life), will be a LIVING HELL!!! Yes I know I’m projecting, but no one knows me like I do. I sure don’t want a repeat of my wedding/reception when my anxiety was so bad that I was VERY close to walking into a moving car just so I could get a ride to the hospital and away from the reception. I already know that all the pills in the world won’t fix things, I’ve tried taking more and then I just worry about being f’ed up. — Tony

Tony, I’m so sorry you’re having so much anxiety over this. This is the type of thing that would drive me nuts, too.  I have a little bit (ok, sometimes a lot) of the paranoia about people not liking me/talking about me too, so I understand where you’re coming from. It waxes and wanes with my anxiety, but it’s always there. Everything you posted hit a chord in me.  I know there’s nothing I can say to help, except to tell you you’re not alone. I care. I’ve never met you in person, but I can say without hesitation, after reading your posts and chatting with you on here for several years now (how long has it been?), you’re one of the nicest, funniest, most likeable people I’ve ever come in contact with.  One of the things I remind myself of when I’m feeling like everyone is focused on me is that everyone else is either a) worrying what I’m thinking of them or b) not thinking about anything but their own problems. I don’t know if that will help you, but I’m pretty sure it’s true based on my experiences with people. Please don’t hestitate to email me if you need to talk. Just because I’m melting down doesn’t mean I can’t help others–in fact, I’m better at helping others than myself.  I need a clone of myself to help me . ((((((((((((((((((Tony))))))))))))))))))) Love, Dawn — The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

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Hey Tono — YOu are having massive anticipatory anxiety and dread…. One day at a time, OK?  Plan some "exit strategies" for yourself if you do get overwhelmed with anxiety during the wedding ceremony.  Your family will understand if you need to step outside and do some deep, slow breathing for a bit.  No one would criticize a diabetic who needs to get a glass of orange juice, quick, on short notice, right? Sorry about the part where you have to share walking-down-the-aisle duties with the stepfather. Try to focus on it being your daughter’s day, and maybe she feels happy about including both of you in that part.  My stepdaughter was vacillating about the same thing when she was preparing for her marriage 9 years ago. … Her stepfather had been in her life since she was 2.5 years old and she didn’t want to slight him.  Our mutual hair stylist told her, "You have A FATHER; he should be the one to walk you down the aisle!"  LOL — that woman doesn’t mince words. So that’s how it was.  But I think we would have understood if my stepdaughter had chosen another way, as well. Yes, it would have stung for my husband, but he would have survived and enjoyed the day, I think. Are there things you can get busy with at home to distract yourself now? Take care. xxoo Anne — The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

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My Daughter has been making wonderful progress planning her wedding ahead of time.  It looks like Friday Sept. 22 will be the wedding and reception. That is in 6 weeks.

Hi Tony, firstly congrats on your daughters wedding. I’m not up with all the news around the group lately so forgive me for not being up to date. I’m a nervous wreck.  I keep worrying about passing out in church, but I did get word that there will not be a church service, just the marriage. Whooo Hooooo!!!!!! She also told me that she will tell the (catholic) priest that no way are they to get out that stinky incense.  That is a giant trigger for me. I’ll either be passed out or be running out the door!

How fantastic for you that two of your main triggers won’t be present on the day. The anxiety is worse every day. I’m also having a problem coping with one part of the wedding.  She asked me how I felt about asking her stepfather to walk her down the isle with one of us on each side.  Then he would sit down and I would stay with her to give her away. She asked me how I would feel and I told her it will make me very uncomfortable, but it is *her* wedding.  So she asked him to do it anyway. Shit, why bother asking me at all?

The anticipatory anxiety is very normal as you would know for most normies let alone us anxious people. Sounds like your daughter is a real sweetie to ask how you felt. I think she was seeking some kind of validation from you even though she knew it will make you feel uncomfortable, the fact you didn’t tell her ‘no way’ is enough for her to feel less guilty about it. The other part that makes it all so difficult is my paranoia.  I have problems thinking people are talking about me.  So now having him in the wedding a little bit just makes me think of more stories people will tell. I guess I’m thinking they will say that I wasn’t a good father or something, I really don’t know.  All I know is that it is slightly different than the norm, so therefore it makes me more anxious/paranoid.

I can’t speak for others but if I saw a bride walking down the aisle with her father and step-father I’d be very impressed with all three people. I’d be thinking how lovely that a family can come together for such a wonderful day and what a special and selfless Dad to share this moment with someone else who has played a role in his daughter’s life. Tomorrow, Friday 11th I will see both Dr. and psychologist so I hope I’ll get some good feedback that I can actually remember.

Write down the main points, type them up here and we’ll keep reminding you. Plus you have heaps of us here to support you as we’ve been through similar big occasions and made it through ok. It really sucks that what should be one of the happiest days of my life, (if it goes anything like the rest of my life), will be a LIVING HELL!!! Yes I know I’m projecting, but no one knows me like I do.

Stinkin thinkin Tony – and very natural. The more important the day the more pressure we place on ourselves and this keeps feeding the fear, anxiety and paranoia. I know it won’t be easy but with a few little tricks and strategies we will get you through this special day. Don’t let the day overwhelm you. Break it down into small steps. I sure don’t want a repeat of my wedding/reception when my anxiety was so bad that I was VERY close to walking into a moving car just so I could get a ride to the hospital and away from the reception.

I actually remember this but it’s ancient history now. You’ve come a long way since then. I already know that all the pills in the world won’t fix things, I’ve tried taking more and then I just worry about being f’ed up.

Focus on the positives and keep yourself busy and distracted during the next 6 weeks so you don’t get yourself too overwhelmed. It’s an important day but it’s only a day. Think of how proud you’ll be of your little girl. Take care, Vanessa — The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

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My Daughter has been making wonderful progress planning her wedding ahead of time.  It looks like Friday Sept. 22 will be the wedding and reception.  That is in 6 weeks. I’m a nervous wreck.  I keep worrying about passing out in church, but I did get word that there will not be a church service, just the marriage.   Whooo Hooooo!!!!!! She also told me that she will tell the (catholic) priest that no way are they to get out that stinky incense.  That is a giant trigger for me.  I’ll either be passed out or be running out the door! The anxiety is worse every day.

(slightly snipped) {{{{{{ Tony }}}}}} Tony, you’re just experiencing anticipation anxiety that we all do.  The best thing I can suggest is to just try to sleep through these next 6 weeks, try to eat healthy meals and don’t do anything else that will stress you out.  Rest up for the big day and I know how scary it is. I can’t give you any advice other than what you already know; when the day is done, be proud that you did it, you withstood it, it was just one day and you didn’t die from it. Then the next day go hibernate in front of your computer or TV.  :~) kili — The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

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My Daughter has been making wonderful progress planning her wedding ahead of time.  It looks like Friday Sept. 22 will be the wedding and reception.  That is in 6 weeks. I’m a nervous wreck.  I keep worrying about passing out in church, but I did get word that there will not be a church service, just the marriage.   Whooo Hooooo!!!!!! She also told me that she will tell the (catholic) priest that no way are they to get out that stinky incense.  That is a giant trigger for me.  I’ll either be passed out or be running out the door! The anxiety is worse every day. I’m also having a problem coping with one part of the wedding.  She asked me how I felt about asking her stepfather to walk her down the isle with one of us on each side.  Then he would sit down and I would stay with her to give her away. She asked me how I would feel and I told her it will make me very uncomfortable, but it is *her* wedding.  So she asked him to do it anyway.  Shit, why bother asking me at all? The other part that makes it all so difficult is my paranoia.  I have problems thinking people are talking about me.  So now having him in the wedding a little bit just makes me think of more stories people will tell.  I guess I’m thinking they will say that I wasn’t a good father or something, I really don’t know.  All I know is that it is slightly different than the norm, so therefore it makes me more anxious/paranoid. Tomorrow, Friday 11th I will see both Dr. and psychologist so I hope I’ll get some good feedback that I can actually remember. It really sucks that what should be one of the happiest days of my life, (if it goes anything like the rest of my life), will be a LIVING HELL!!!   Yes I know I’m projecting, but no one knows me like I do. I sure don’t want a repeat of my wedding/reception when my anxiety was so bad that I was VERY close to walking into a moving car just so I could get a ride to the hospital and away from the reception. I already know that all the pills in the world won’t fix things, I’ve tried taking more and then I just worry about being f’ed up. — Tony — The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

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