QUESTION ABOUT COMMON LAW MARRIAGE

Question:

Well, now I am back. After paying support for my daughter who is now 21 and spousal support for a few years I found out my ex-wife had her lover move in with her – so I stopped paying spousal support.

First, I’m going to say IANAL (I am not a lawyer). Second, I haven’t ever dealt with spousal support and am coming at this from a different angle. That angle being child support. And, third, this is a difficult issue to even give opinions on because of the differences in state laws and because of the what is in your divorce decree. Those two things make a *big* difference in how it will eventually be dealt with. I think your first mistake was in stopping paying spousal support *without a court saying it was okay to stop*. In our dealings with child support, what we found was that, unless the payments were stopped because of a specific event mentioned in the decree (i.e., when the child had graduated high school or reached the age of 18, whichever occurred last, and was not enrolled in continuing education or, if enrolled in continuing education, the age of 21), we *had* to go to court and *prove* that there was a reason for stopping the child support payments before stopping. A more complete explanation is that, in the divorce decree, my husband was tasked with paying child support until age 18 or high school graduation, whichever came last, OR until age 21 if attending college/university/trade school OR until they married, joined the military or were otherwise emancipated (under the age of 21.) So, the only ways he could *legally* stop paying child support without going to court and having them say ‘Okay, you’re right. You stop paying now.’ is under the specific situations outlined above. When a situation arose that we felt fell under the ‘otherwise emancipated’ situ- ation, my husband was legally obligated to continue paying CS until he had proven to the court that the child was emancipated. I have since remarried to a great lady and did not think it was fair to either one of us that I should support my ex-wife and her lover.  

What is fair and what you are legally obligated to do is sometimes not the same thing. I want to hire another attorney and get this bitch off my back once and for all. First, I believe she committed purgery for swearing in the affidavit that I only paid her a couple hundred dollars in spousal support.

Hopefully you have the documents to back up what you have said you have paid her for spousal support. Next I don’t want to pay her any more spousal support because she has a live in boyfriend. Am I off base here? Is there any one out there with a legal background that thinks I have a good foundation to stand on?

As Denise said, it’s going to depend on the state laws, what is written in the divorce decree and what you can prove. Some (a lot. Most?) states do not recognize common-law marriages. Find out if yours does. In the ones that do, there are differing criteria as to what exactly the couple has to do to be common-law married. Tracey

Response:

Well, now I am back. After paying support for my daughter who is now 21 and spousal support for a few years I found out my ex-wife had her lover move in with her – so I stopped paying spousal support. I have since remarried to a great lady and did not think it was fair to either one of us that I should support my ex-wife and her lover.  As my new wife and I just returned from a vacation I received a summons from my ex-wife. She is suing me for back spousal support, saying I only paid her a "few hundred dollars." I want to hire another attorney and get this bitch off my back once and for all. First, I believe she committed purgery for swearing in the affidavit that I only paid her a couple hundred dollars in spousal support. Next I don’t want to pay her any more spousal support because she has a live in boyfriend. Am I off base here? Is there any one out there with a legal background that thinks I have a good foundation to stand on?

Sometimes it works out this way.  Seems pretty unfair. My husband still has to pay alimony to his ex-wife who lives with a man she was seeing when she filed for divorce. The alimony he pays out to her (and her fluffy-man) isn’t a whole lot different from the income i bring IN to this household where her and my husband’s son lives with us.  Sure seems mixed-up but it’s the way it is.  She’s always spending money on cars, furniture, houses, etc, and then whining about being so poor.  Poor baby. IMO, that’s the kind of person who can go to church on Sunday, all holy-like,   and then be self-centered and rude the rest of the time.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Okay, I have to say this is one of the most helpful groups I’ve found on the Internet. A few years ago, suffering through a nasty divorce it helped me a lot – even though the answers were not what I wanted all the time – they were very much right on. First I want to ramble a bit, then I have a question for all of you who may have been through this before. I filed for a divorce against my ex-wife on grounds of mental and physical abuse. After she broke my nose twice (among other things) – including changing the locks on the doors to my house and leaving a garbage bag full of my clothes out for me to take. It finally occurred to me the marriage was over – yeah, okay, I was a little slow. The story is more involved, as usually is the case, but nevertheless, I won -even though I had to pay all the court costs, ended up with all the bills and she got all the assets. Still, according to the decision, I won the case. It seemed strange to me I won, yet ended up paying for everything, but my attorney said that’s the way it usually goes in NY. Well, now I am back. After paying support for my daughter who is now 21 and spousal support for a few years I found out my ex-wife had her lover move in with her – so I stopped paying spousal support. I have since remarried to a great lady and did not think it was fair to either one of us that I should support my ex-wife and her lover.  As my new wife and I just returned from a vacation I received a summons from my ex-wife. She is suing me for back spousal support, saying I only paid her a "few hundred dollars." I want to hire another attorney and get this bitch off my back once and for all. First, I believe she committed purgery for swearing in the affidavit that I only paid her a couple hundred dollars in spousal support. Next I don’t want to pay her any more spousal support because she has a live in boyfriend. Am I off base here? Is there any one out there with a legal background that thinks I have a good foundation to stand on?

Response:

I don’t want to pay her any more spousal support because she has a live in boyfriend. Am I off base here? Is there any one out there with a legal background that thinks I have a good foundation to stand on?

I don’t know a single judge, magistrate, etc. who thinks it is a good idea for us "common folk" to be overriding their orders – whether we are right or wrong in our "Judgment" of the situation. Seems "fair" to me, that you shouldn’t have to pay for your ex’s lover’s life expenses.  Might even seem "fair" to a judge.  But I imagine you are going to discover that you are legally liable (though I’m not a lawyer) for all back support you refused to pay, up until/if a judge says you can stop. Then again, you might luck out (with a good lawyer and/or a unique judge) and have the judge totally agree with all you have done on your own, without the court’s permission, and make your past actions into a court order.  That just seems like about the least likely outcome, from my own observations of those lofty dispensers of justice in our land. Actually, I would be pretty disappointed in any court that did such a thing.  That’s just not how our system works – it is pretty silly, when you think about it, for all of us "common folks" out here to just make up our own court orders to follow, based on what we think is "fair".  I mean, admit it – surely you know a person or 2 who are pretty whacked out, and would come up with some wild ideas about "fairness" if such a thing were permissible.  What court order would your ex make up, if such things were allowed?  What would *she* think is fair? Janie

Response:

<snip After paying support for my daughter who is now 21 and spousal support for a few years I found out my ex-wife had her lover move in with her – so I stopped paying spousal support. I have since remarried to a great lady and did not think it was fair to either one of us that I should support my ex-wife and her lover. As my new wife and I just returned from a vacation I received a summons from my ex-wife. She is suing me for back spousal support, saying I only paid her a "few hundred dollars." <snip

Hiring an attorney would be your best move becuz (this will seem harsh) it seems you are tad confused about your legal duties.  First, your subject header is misleading. You are not asking a question about a common law marriage, but about a legal divorce. You have to look at the terms of the original order to determine your obligations.  Alimony is often paid until the payee dies or remarries.  Cohabitation is not usually a limiting factor, unless its adopted by the court pursuant to an agreement.  Absent such a clause in the court order, you will not be able use that to avoid liability.  Even if there is a cohabitation clause, you’d have to be able to prove when it began to establish an effective date. You’d better start collecting proof of payments for support, over and above the CS.  If payments were made thru dispersing agency, you’ll need a certified payment history.  Even if you can prove that she is wrong, it does not mean that you’ll get any credit for sums you are not able to substantiate.   If the judge thinks that you have shorted her… and by your own admission, it appears that you have, then you may well be liable for any sum you cannot prove.  [Rog']

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Okay, I have to say this is one of the most helpful groups I’ve found on the Internet. A few years ago, suffering through a nasty divorce it helped me a lot – even though the answers were not what I wanted all the time – they were very much right on. First I want to ramble a bit, then I have a question for all of you who may have been through this before. I filed for a divorce against my ex-wife on grounds of mental and physical abuse. After she broke my nose twice (among other things) – including changing the locks on the doors to my house and leaving a garbage bag full of my clothes out for me to take. It finally occurred to me the marriage was over – yeah, okay, I was a little slow. The story is more involved, as usually is the case, but nevertheless, I won -even though I had to pay all the court costs, ended up with all the bills and she got all the assets. Still, according to the decision, I won the case. It seemed strange to me I won, yet ended up paying for everything, but my attorney said that’s the way it usually goes in NY. Well, now I am back. After paying support for my daughter who is now 21 and spousal support for a few years I found out my ex-wife had her lover move in with her – so I stopped paying spousal support. I have since remarried to a great lady and did not think it was fair to either one of us that I should support my ex-wife and her lover.  As my new wife and I just returned from a vacation I received a summons from my ex-wife. She is suing me for back spousal support, saying I only paid her a "few hundred dollars." I want to hire another attorney and get this bitch off my back once and for all. First, I believe she committed purgery for swearing in the affidavit that I only paid her a couple hundred dollars in spousal support.

Well I will tell you that IME, the courts do not give a damn if she committed a willful act of purgery. My ex lied through her teeth. I was able to catch her on her financial declaration where she purgered herself on the sworn statement by not declaring that $10,000 she stole from our joint account. When I presented the evidence to the judge, she just said "oh your wife must have "forgotten" to declare it", and gave her another week to file and "amended" statement. "Forgot"???? Horse Hockey. You might forget a $5 bill in your wallet. My MIGHT forget that "C" note hidden in your shoe, but NO ONE "forgets" $10,000. She LIED UNDER OATH, and the courts did not give a rats ass. I had absolute proof in the form of bank statements that clearly showed her little lie of omission. For your sake, I sincerely hope you have documented evidence of ALL you payments, because the courts will punish you accordingly for every cent you do not have records for. Personally, as other posters have mentioned, I think you were very foolish to stop paying. You cannot simply decide to stop compliance with a court order. For your casual and arbitrary decision to do so, the courts likely will force you to pay every penny of back support PLUS INTEREST. If you are really really lucky and have a good lawyer you MIGHT get any future payments stopped or reduced. But you have shot yourself in the foot by simply disobeying the courts. Oh, BTW, the courts don’t care if SHE disobeys the courts order by not allowing you access to any children you may have had, all they care about is that your money winds up in her wallet so that she wont be a drain on the state welfare system. You have an uphill battle. Good luck, you are going to need it. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Next I don’t want to pay her any more spousal support because she has a live in boyfriend. Am I off base here? Is there any one out there with a legal background that thinks I have a good foundation to stand on?

Response:

Okay, I have to say this is one of the most helpful groups I’ve found on the Internet. A few years ago, suffering through a nasty divorce it helped me a lot – even though the answers were not what I wanted all the time – they were very much right on. First I want to ramble a bit, then I have a question for all of you who may have been through this before. I filed for a divorce against my ex-wife on grounds of mental and physical abuse. After she broke my nose twice (among other things) – including changing the locks on the doors to my house and leaving a garbage bag full of my clothes out for me to take. It finally occurred to me the marriage was over – yeah, okay, I was a little slow. The story is more involved, as usually is the case, but nevertheless, I won -even though I had to pay all the court costs, ended up with all the bills and she got all the assets. Still, according to the decision, I won the case. It seemed strange to me I won, yet ended up paying for everything, but my attorney said that’s the way it usually goes in NY. Well, now I am back. After paying support for my daughter who is now 21 and spousal support for a few years I found out my ex-wife had her lover move in with her – so I stopped paying spousal support. I have since remarried to a great lady and did not think it was fair to either one of us that I should support my ex-wife and her lover.  As my new wife and I just returned from a vacation I received a summons from my ex-wife. She is suing me for back spousal support, saying I only paid her a "few hundred dollars." I want to hire another attorney and get this bitch off my back once and for all. First, I believe she committed purgery for swearing in the affidavit that I only paid her a couple hundred dollars in spousal support. Next I don’t want to pay her any more spousal support because she has a live in boyfriend. Am I off base here? Is there any one out there with a legal background that thinks I have a good foundation to stand on?

Response:

The answers would depend on where you live, how the divorce decree is written and what you can actually prove in court. Denise

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Okay, I have to say this is one of the most helpful groups I’ve found on the Internet. A few years ago, suffering through a nasty divorce it helped me a lot – even though the answers were not what I wanted all the time – they were very much right on. First I want to ramble a bit, then I have a question for all of you who may have been through this before. I filed for a divorce against my ex-wife on grounds of mental and physical abuse. After she broke my nose twice (among other things) – including changing the locks on the doors to my house and leaving a garbage bag full of my clothes out for me to take. It finally occurred to me the marriage was over – yeah, okay, I was a little slow. The story is more involved, as usually is the case, but nevertheless, I won -even though I had to pay all the court costs, ended up with all the bills and she got all the assets. Still, according to the decision, I won the case. It seemed strange to me I won, yet ended up paying for everything, but my attorney said that’s the way it usually goes in NY. Well, now I am back. After paying support for my daughter who is now 21 and spousal support for a few years I found out my ex-wife had her lover move in with her – so I stopped paying spousal support. I have since remarried to a great lady and did not think it was fair to either one of us that I should support my ex-wife and her lover.  As my new wife and I just returned from a vacation I received a summons from my ex-wife. She is suing me for back spousal support, saying I only paid her a "few hundred dollars." I want to hire another attorney and get this bitch off my back once and for all. First, I believe she committed purgery for swearing in the affidavit that I only paid her a couple hundred dollars in spousal support. Next I don’t want to pay her any more spousal support because she has a live in boyfriend. Am I off base here? Is there any one out there with a legal background that thinks I have a good foundation to stand on?

Response:

Next I don’t want to pay her any more spousal support because she has a live in boyfriend. Am I off base here? Is there any one out there with a legal background that thinks I have a good foundation to stand on?

Yoube able to get out of alimony if it’s written in the divorce decree that support ceases upon her cohabitation (and you can prove it to the judge’s satisfaction). Most states don’t recognize common-law marriages anymore, though, so if the decree states that alimony ceases upon her remarriage I, frankly and not-a-lawyerly, would think you don’t have much legal basis to stand on. Regardless of what happens if you do take this thing to court, howerever, you can’t just decide on your own to stop paying a court-ordered payment (alimony or child support) because you think you can or should! The court ordered it, and only the court can order it to stop…that’s why it’s called a court order!

Response:

Ann Arbor MI Divorce: Divorce money for psychotherapists

Question:

Ann Arbor Michigan is a hotbed of divorce, separations and break ups and broken families.  This is in large part due to the many couples counselors

Troll or idiot, mabey both… "to mold a new reality, closer to the heart" RUSH

Response:

Idiot Troll.

Response:

PsyBuff said… A reason why divorce is so high in Ann Arbor, is that many liberal feminist social workers and psychotherapists have this idea that men are scum and are suspect of being either axe murderers, bums, abusers or mentally ill or in denial about their childhood and need psychotherapy because at one time they lived in a woman’s womb for nine months and was spanked on the ass by some MD. If you have testerone in your body, you are automatically suspect of being a scumbag by most shrinks in Ann Arbor.  This is because in Ann Arbor, liberal and feminist ideology has creeped into the psychotherapy profession there and has tainted it into being no longer psychotherapy or a mental health science, but some kind of political indoctrination.  Psychotherapy in Ann Arbor is not psychotherapy any more.  

The black helicopters are on the way… Casey I drive way too fast to worry about cholesterol.

Response:

Hmmm, I could go for a more liberal and feminist ideology, within limits. Maybe I should move over there…    I hear they’re a pretty educated bunch over there, in Ann Arbor, MI.   THAT change would be welcome.     Sounds inviting… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – This is because in Ann Arbor, liberal and feminist ideology has creeped into the psychotherapy profession there… My opinion, since Ann Arbor is rated as the best city in the US for females to live in, let the women have it….

Response:

Ann Arbor Michigan is a hotbed of divorce, separations and break ups and broken families.  This is in large part due to the many couples counselors in town who are ill trained in marital and couples psychotherapy and are incompetent.  It is also because many psychotherapists and couples counselors in Ann Arbor profit much more from a divorced couple, a broken marriage or relationship or family, than they would if they actually helped their clients to stay together instead of tearing them apart (what a novel idea, help a couple stay together).  People who have been psychologically de stabilized and recently separated or divorced are in need of assistance, are also easy pickings for therapists because they are emotionally venerable and easy to manipulate into paying for expensive psychotherapy fees. If you don’t believe that Ann Arbor is a hotbed of divorce, just type in – Ann Arbor Divorce – in goggle and just take a look at how many divorce therapists and divorce attorneys and divorce mediators (many of whom are mental health professionals) come up.   This is not necessarily unique to Ann Arbor, many towns have this problem. In Michigan however Ann Arbor seems to be plagued by divorce and break ups compared to other Michigan towns. A reason why divorce is so high in Ann Arbor, is that many liberal feminist social workers and psychotherapists have this idea that men are scum and are suspect of being either axe murderers, bums, abusers or mentally ill or in denial about their childhood and need psychotherapy because at one time they lived in a woman’s womb for nine months and was spanked on the ass by some MD.  If you work for the University of Michigan or have some high tech local job and make good money however, a man is not scum because they can pay for their high therapy bills and the so called feminists who want to be independent change their tunes when they latch onto a wealthy man for a while.  Until some quack convinces the woman to get a divorce and take the money ha-ha.  But if you are just the average nice guy Joe trying to make a living, trying to be good to your woman and are normal, and you are male, most shrinks will see you as a scumbag and automatically suspect – if a woman is coming to see a shrink for "relationship problems", it’s automatically the mans fault in the eyes of the shrink, so of course the shrink needs to tell the client to dump the bum ASAP and get the scumbag into see a therapist = $$$. If you have testerone in your body, you are automatically suspect of being a scumbag by most shrinks in Ann Arbor.  This is because in Ann Arbor, liberal and feminist ideology has creeped into the psychotherapy profession there and has tainted it into being no longer psychotherapy or a mental health science, but some kind of political indoctrination.  Psychotherapy in Ann Arbor is not psychotherapy any more.  It is a therapist charging you ninety dollars an hour to eat their garbage of politics that men are scum.  Even the male psychotherapists have been feminized and indoctrinated into this view. That’s what they charge in Ann Arbor about 90 bucks – check it out yourself on goggle, don’t believe me, prove it to yourself. If your family or spouse or lover lives in ann arbor or sees an ann arbor shrink, heaven help you, your family or relationship is probably doomed. My opinion, since Ann Arbor is rated as the best city in the US for females to live in, let the women have it. Men –  move out into a normal town where men are appreciated as being human beings and not suspect of being barbarians.  Let the women live amongst themselves and turn ann arbor into a giant 24/7/365 woman’s festival where psychotherapy by proxy reigns.  After all, Ann Arbor was named after two women, so let the women have it, men don’t belong there any more anyway. Ann Arbor Shrinks are snob dilettantes who think Men Are Scum.  Even the male shrinks believe that, and that their testosterone is cleaner than their clients.

Response:

Money & Weddings was Insanity…

Question:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Doug Anderson wrote: > shinypenny0…@yahoo.com (shinypenny) writes: >> "Chrys" <notarealaddr…@lycos.com> wrote in message >> <news:br5fs5$28808o$1@ID-198599.news.uni-berlin.de>… >>> Even if you’re right, the same thing can be done without spending a >>> fortune.  Couples do not need to invite hundreds of people they don’t know >>> (and consider that those they don’t know will not be giving them any >>> support).  If they invite those that are closest to them to witness, then >>> the cost does not need to be much.  Having a meal with those people also >>> does not need to cost much.  It doesn’t have to be fancy catered $30+ per >>> person with an open bar. >> Oh I agree that people don’t need to spend a fortune. I was only >> trying to figure out why so many apparently still do! >> See, my thought was that perhaps people unconciously are thinking "The >> more I spend on you, the greater your obligation to help support this >> marriage." (This is in line with the whole "reciprical generosity" >> concept). >> Inflation aside, doesn’t the idea put a new spin on why the cost of >> weddings keep sky-rocketing? I.e, the more common divorce is, the more >> people may feel compelled to obligate hundreds of people. > Well, I don’t really buy the idea that people are really expecting (or > trying to incur an obligation for) the community to keep their > marriage together. > I think it is a natural thing to want to celebrate an important life > event (linking your life with someone else’s) with a ceremony and > party for family and friends.  At least in the US though, family and > friends tend to be pretty widely dispersed (geographically) for most > middle class people by the time they get married.

And as an aside, this is a major problem for our culture overe here.   I don’t know what the solution is, or if there even is one.

Response:

"John Royer" <jro…@istar.ca> wrote in message

news:br7p22$r6u$1@news.eusc.inter.net… > "Doug Anderson" <ethelthe…@yahoo.com> wrote in message > news:e5wBb.350008$275.1151527@attbi_s53… > > shinypenny0…@yahoo.com (shinypenny) writes: > > > "Chrys" <notarealaddr…@lycos.com> wrote in message > <news:br5fs5$28808o$1@ID-198599.news.uni-berlin.de>… > And with the coming money currency crisis America is going to face, > Americans are going to suffer materially for a long time. I truly feel sorry > for the position Americans are in right now,,,,,your government has screwed > you BIG TIME…..

well, c’mon. I wanna hear more…

Response:

"Doug Anderson" <ethelthe…@yahoo.com> wrote in message

news:e5wBb.350008$275.1151527@attbi_s53… > shinypenny0…@yahoo.com (shinypenny) writes: > > "Chrys" <notarealaddr…@lycos.com> wrote in message

<news:br5fs5$28808o$1@ID-198599.news.uni-berlin.de>… And with the coming money currency crisis America is going to face, Americans are going to suffer materially for a long time. I truly feel sorry for the position Americans are in right now,,,,,your government has screwed you BIG TIME….. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Then we have to add in the fact that those of us in the western world > probably live in the most matierialistic society that has ever been > known. > And add again, that at least in the United States, our primary means > of valuing everything is in terms of money (and no, this isn’t a new > thing).

Response:

Unfortunately the communities response is " the Prick or the Bitch" "you’re better of without them anyway" is the standard response. Whatever the original intent was it has long been lost in the hype and shuffle. "shinypenny" <shinypenny0…@yahoo.com> wrote in message

news:c8cb5319.0312091221.762ecf9f@posting.google.com… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Haven’t said much about this whole Insanity thread (avoiding the > trolls), but it did get me thinking. > Undoubtedly people nowadays are encouraged to view weddings as a > luxury item and splurge accordingly. However, I think there might be > something more going on here. > When I was first married, the priest explained to us that a wedding > involved the couple, God, and the community. The community part might > be viewed as optional, but he explained that there is a good reason > people invite their family and friends to witness their weddings: it > is a way of securing the community’s promise to help support the > marriage. > Another thing I have been thinking about is how sharing meals tends to > be a culturally universal way in which people interact and seal bonds > with each other, whether it be a simple sit-down dinner with your > immediate family, a thanksgiving feast between Native Americans and > pilgrims, a State dinner between nations, or a wedding banquet for > hundreds of people. > The single greatest expense of a wedding tends to be the reception. On > average, it costs over $8,000 to feed all those guests at a $22,000 > wedding. Surely you can have a wedding without a reception, or you can > cut corners and have a cash bar or simple cake & coffee thing. But the > vast amount of people don’t tend to do that. They tend to put on a > spread with open bar and full dinner. > When I ask myself why, the answer seems to be that it is something > about the exchange — parents of the bride and/or wedding couple > shares food with the guests, guests give presents to the couple — > that might be less about luxury expenditures and more about some basic > human instinct to secure a promise from the community. "You have > witnessed our vows — I have fed you well — now you are obligated to > help me uphold my vows and support my marriage." > Just a thought. What do y’all think? > jen

Response:

In article <c8cb5319.0312091221.762ec…@posting.google.com>, shinypenny0…@yahoo.com spoke thusly… > When I was first married, the priest explained to us that a wedding > involved the couple, God, and the community. The community part might > be viewed as optional, but he explained that there is a good reason > people invite their family and friends to witness their weddings: it > is a way of securing the community’s promise to help support the > marriage.

That’s how it used to be. Now it’s about the parents showing how much money they can fritter away. > Another thing I have been thinking about is how sharing meals tends to > be a culturally universal way in which people interact and seal bonds > with each other, whether it be a simple sit-down dinner with your > immediate family, a thanksgiving feast between Native Americans and > pilgrims, a State dinner between nations, or a wedding banquet for > hundreds of people.

I think a dinner/reception with more than 25 people is too big, you just can’t talk to them all. I’m old-fashioned and wanted a small wedding. Luckily my wife agreed. She isn’t all bad. — Say no to fixed width tables. They look terrible.

Response:

"shinypenny" <shinypenny0…@yahoo.com> wrote in message

news:c8cb5319.0312091856.2c2973c6@posting.google.com… > Inflation aside, doesn’t the idea put a new spin on why the cost of > weddings keep sky-rocketing? I.e, the more common divorce is, the more > people may feel compelled to obligate hundreds of people. > jen

Given how common divorce is, I’d think that would be a good reason to keep costs down.  Why start a marriage with the worries of being thousands of dollars in debt?  And why spend all your engagement in hectic stressful planning for that one single day?

Response:

"Shashay Doofray" <shas…@yahoo.com> wrote in message <news:br5v2o$29itmf$1@ID-177524.news.uni-berlin.de>… > *snip* > . "You have > > witnessed our vows — I have fed you well — now you are obligated to > > help me uphold my vows and support my marriage." > > Just a thought. What do y’all think? > > jen > Interesting possibilities.  I am curious to know what you consider > "community support" and you think that the community supports a married > couple.

First I should say that I don’t think people consider this conciously when they plan out a wedding. Perhaps it’s more like a cultural tradition that arose for a purpose and lots of people still blindly follow today, without fully knowing why. Examples of what I mean by community support: "When my husband calls you five years from now and complains about me, you will not immediately take his side and recommend he run for a divorce. Instead, you’ll think back to our lovely wedding and remind him of the vows he took in front of everyone." "Since you went to my wedding and ate my food, you will not even *think* about stealing my wife!" jen

Response:

"shinypenny" <shinypenny0…@yahoo.com> wrote in message

news:c8cb5319.0312100500.682fe7ee@posting.google.com… > Is it class, or reciprocal generosity? People are offended because > they expect their generosity to be reciprocated.

Well, to me, part of being a classy person is having reciprocal generosity.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -"JWB" <jwbSPAMBEGONE3…@excite.com> wrote in message <news:UywBb.194276$Gq.25637506@twister.nyc.rr.com>… > "shinypenny" <shinypenny0…@yahoo.com> wrote in message > news:c8cb5319.0312091906.4a6e0a27@posting.google.com… > > "JWB" <jwbSPAMBEGONE3…@excite.com> wrote in message >  <news:H1tBb.179259$ri.25885289@twister.nyc.rr.com>… > > > I think having a fancy reception is stupid. I think people do it because > > > they feel they are "supposed" to. That somehow, it’s not a real marriage > > > unless you have the chicken dance or whatnot. > > > However, on the flip side of the coin, when people spend a decent sum of > > > money to come to your wedding, well, you kinda owe them. > > Now that’s an interesting thought: How many people fly hundreds of > > miles and pay for a hotel room to attend weddings because they’re just > > dying to see the chicken dance, or eat rubberized chicken? (Seriously > > – wedding food is usually atrocious!). Why do the guests come at all? > For the most part, I’m not really talking about the travel (unless you live > way out there and *everyone* has to make a long trip). It’s the guest’s > choice to travel, and on them. I’m talking more about the wedding party and > the like. People who have a lavish wedding where the cost was primarily paid > for by the wedding party, and then the couple skimped out on the reception – > in other words, the wedding party collectively outspent the couple for the > entire day. I find that wrong.

Yup, it violates the whole concept of reciprocal generosity. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> > > I got into an argument this past summer with a friend because he asked >  me to > > > be an usher at his full blown, tux and gown wedding – I agreed, but then > > > found out he was having a "firehouse hall / cash bar / Aunt Betty’s ziti > > > over sterno / cousin Joe (with the big cassette collection) spinning the > > > tunes type reception…. so, basically, he’s cutting corners on HIS >  payout, > > > but wants me to rent a tux, and my wife to buy a gown. > > I was a bridesmaid in one of those firehouse hall ziti weddings. It > > was quite lovely and a lot of fun. They even did that dance with the > > money bag thing. Didn’t mind spending to purchase my gown (ugly as it > > was). We didn’t get an open bar, but the brides’ mother made us these > > … interesting… stuffed duckling dolls dressed in matching > > bridesmaid outfits (don’t ask). > I’m glad you had a good time, but I really find that very tacky. Basically, > your friend (or whoever) was saying "we can’t afford an expensive reception, > but we don’t mind asking *you* to spend money". Yea, maybe your friends will > do it, but you know, I think that’s a shitty thing to ask your friends to > do.

I don’t think it was as bad as that. I spent maybe $100 for the dress, a drop in the bucket. Even if they made their own ziti, with the band, hall rental, and all that they still spent quite a bit more than the bridal party did. There was also a lot more effort put into it (sweat equity); the mother of the bride cooked everything in advance for 200 people. That’s a lot of food! The whole thing was charming (well, except for the money dance…. now that I think is tacky!). My friend has long been divorced now. For her second wedding she eloped. > Maybe I’m just materialistic and judgmental at heart, but if you can’t > afford open bar, don’t ask people to buy a gown / rent a tux. > The firehouse reception is fine when coupled with the justice of the peace > and everyone wears a suit/dress. But if you want formal from your friends, > you really should provide formal back. It’s more about class than anything.

Is it class, or reciprocal generosity? People are offended because they expect their generosity to be reciprocated. jen

Response:

"Chrys" <notarealaddr…@lycos.com> wrote in message <news:br5fs5$28808o$1@ID-198599.news.uni-berlin.de>… > Even if you’re right, the same thing can be done without spending a > fortune.  Couples do not need to invite hundreds of people they don’t know > (and consider that those they don’t know will not be giving them any > support).  If they invite those that are closest to them to witness, then > the cost does not need to be much.  Having a meal with those people also > does not need to cost much.  It doesn’t have to be fancy catered $30+ per > person with an open bar.

Oh I agree that people don’t need to spend a fortune. I was only trying to figure out why so many apparently still do! See, my thought was that perhaps people unconciously are thinking "The more I spend on you, the greater your obligation to help support this marriage." (This is in line with the whole "reciprical generosity" concept). Inflation aside, doesn’t the idea put a new spin on why the cost of weddings keep sky-rocketing? I.e, the more common divorce is, the more people may feel compelled to obligate hundreds of people. jen

Response:

"JWB" <jwbSPAMBEGONE3…@excite.com> wrote in message <news:H1tBb.179259$ri.25885289@twister.nyc.rr.com>… > I think having a fancy reception is stupid. I think people do it because > they feel they are "supposed" to. That somehow, it’s not a real marriage > unless you have the chicken dance or whatnot. > However, on the flip side of the coin, when people spend a decent sum of > money to come to your wedding, well, you kinda owe them.

Now that’s an interesting thought: How many people fly hundreds of miles and pay for a hotel room to attend weddings because they’re just dying to see the chicken dance, or eat rubberized chicken? (Seriously – wedding food is usually atrocious!). Why do the guests come at all? > I got into an argument this past summer with a friend because he asked me to > be an usher at his full blown, tux and gown wedding – I agreed, but then > found out he was having a "firehouse hall / cash bar / Aunt Betty’s ziti > over sterno / cousin Joe (with the big cassette collection) spinning the > tunes type reception…. so, basically, he’s cutting corners on HIS payout, > but wants me to rent a tux, and my wife to buy a gown.

I was a bridesmaid in one of those firehouse hall ziti weddings. It was quite lovely and a lot of fun. They even did that dance with the money bag thing. Didn’t mind spending to purchase my gown (ugly as it was). We didn’t get an open bar, but the brides’ mother made us these … interesting… stuffed duckling dolls dressed in matching bridesmaid outfits (don’t ask). jen

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -shinypenny0…@yahoo.com (shinypenny) writes: > "Chrys" <notarealaddr…@lycos.com> wrote in message <news:br5fs5$28808o$1@ID-198599.news.uni-berlin.de>… > > Even if you’re right, the same thing can be done without spending a > > fortune.  Couples do not need to invite hundreds of people they don’t know > > (and consider that those they don’t know will not be giving them any > > support).  If they invite those that are closest to them to witness, then > > the cost does not need to be much.  Having a meal with those people also > > does not need to cost much.  It doesn’t have to be fancy catered $30+ per > > person with an open bar. > Oh I agree that people don’t need to spend a fortune. I was only > trying to figure out why so many apparently still do! > See, my thought was that perhaps people unconciously are thinking "The > more I spend on you, the greater your obligation to help support this > marriage." (This is in line with the whole "reciprical generosity" > concept). > Inflation aside, doesn’t the idea put a new spin on why the cost of > weddings keep sky-rocketing? I.e, the more common divorce is, the more > people may feel compelled to obligate hundreds of people.

Well, I don’t really buy the idea that people are really expecting (or trying to incur an obligation for) the community to keep their marriage together. I think it is a natural thing to want to celebrate an important life event (linking your life with someone else’s) with a ceremony and party for family and friends.  At least in the US though, family and friends tend to be pretty widely dispersed (geographically) for most middle class people by the time they get married.  So if you are asking family and friends to come hundreds or thousands of miles, a 10 minute ceremony in a judges office and breakfast with your witnesses at a diner afterwards (which I’m slightly embarassed to admit is what my wife and I did – but we didn’t let anyone come any distance) doesnn’t quite cut it. Then we have to add in the fact that those of us in the western world probably live in the most matierialistic society that has ever been known. And add again, that at least in the United States, our primary means of valuing everything is in terms of money (and no, this isn’t a new thing).

Response:

shinypenny0…@yahoo.com (shinypenny) writes: > "JWB" <jwbSPAMBEGONE3…@excite.com> wrote in message <news:H1tBb.179259$ri.25885289@twister.nyc.rr.com>… > > I think having a fancy reception is stupid. I think people do it because > > they feel they are "supposed" to. That somehow, it’s not a real marriage > > unless you have the chicken dance or whatnot. > > However, on the flip side of the coin, when people spend a decent sum of > > money to come to your wedding, well, you kinda owe them. > Now that’s an interesting thought: How many people fly hundreds of > miles and pay for a hotel room to attend weddings because they’re just > dying to see the chicken dance, or eat rubberized chicken? (Seriously > – wedding food is usually atrocious!). Why do the guests come at all?

That’s easy.  It’s for the rubber chickens.  No, seriously, my wife and I go to the weddings of local friends, and we go to (some of) the weddings of relatives and childhood friends that we feel strong bonds with.   It is a ceremonial moment in most people’s lives, and if it is someone you care about deeply, it is nice to participate in that ceremony. > > I got into an argument this past summer with a friend because he asked me to > > be an usher at his full blown, tux and gown wedding – I agreed, but then > > found out he was having a "firehouse hall / cash bar / Aunt Betty’s ziti > > over sterno / cousin Joe (with the big cassette collection) spinning the > > tunes type reception…. so, basically, he’s cutting corners on HIS payout, > > but wants me to rent a tux, and my wife to buy a gown. > I was a bridesmaid in one of those firehouse hall ziti weddings. It > was quite lovely and a lot of fun. They even did that dance with the > money bag thing. Didn’t mind spending to purchase my gown (ugly as it > was). We didn’t get an open bar, but the brides’ mother made us these > … interesting… stuffed duckling dolls dressed in matching > bridesmaid outfits (don’t ask).

None of my friends or siblings has ever required me to purchase clothes I don’t like for his or her wedding!  (And it ain’t because I own a penguin suit.)

Response:

"shinypenny" <shinypenny0…@yahoo.com> wrote in message

news:c8cb5319.0312091906.4a6e0a27@posting.google.com… > "JWB" <jwbSPAMBEGONE3…@excite.com> wrote in message

<news:H1tBb.179259$ri.25885289@twister.nyc.rr.com>… > > I think having a fancy reception is stupid. I think people do it because > > they feel they are "supposed" to. That somehow, it’s not a real marriage > > unless you have the chicken dance or whatnot. > > However, on the flip side of the coin, when people spend a decent sum of > > money to come to your wedding, well, you kinda owe them. > Now that’s an interesting thought: How many people fly hundreds of > miles and pay for a hotel room to attend weddings because they’re just > dying to see the chicken dance, or eat rubberized chicken? (Seriously > – wedding food is usually atrocious!). Why do the guests come at all?

For the most part, I’m not really talking about the travel (unless you live way out there and *everyone* has to make a long trip). It’s the guest’s choice to travel, and on them. I’m talking more about the wedding party and the like. People who have a lavish wedding where the cost was primarily paid for by the wedding party, and then the couple skimped out on the reception – in other words, the wedding party collectively outspent the couple for the entire day. I find that wrong. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> > I got into an argument this past summer with a friend because he asked me to > > be an usher at his full blown, tux and gown wedding – I agreed, but then > > found out he was having a "firehouse hall / cash bar / Aunt Betty’s ziti > > over sterno / cousin Joe (with the big cassette collection) spinning the > > tunes type reception…. so, basically, he’s cutting corners on HIS payout, > > but wants me to rent a tux, and my wife to buy a gown. > I was a bridesmaid in one of those firehouse hall ziti weddings. It > was quite lovely and a lot of fun. They even did that dance with the > money bag thing. Didn’t mind spending to purchase my gown (ugly as it > was). We didn’t get an open bar, but the brides’ mother made us these > … interesting… stuffed duckling dolls dressed in matching > bridesmaid outfits (don’t ask).

I’m glad you had a good time, but I really find that very tacky. Basically, your friend (or whoever) was saying "we can’t afford an expensive reception, but we don’t mind asking *you* to spend money". Yea, maybe your friends will do it, but you know, I think that’s a shitty thing to ask your friends to do. Maybe I’m just materialistic and judgmental at heart, but if you can’t afford open bar, don’t ask people to buy a gown / rent a tux. The firehouse reception is fine when coupled with the justice of the peace and everyone wears a suit/dress. But if you want formal from your friends, you really should provide formal back. It’s more about class than anything. JWB

Response:

JWB wrote: > "Tai" <tainu…@yahoo.com> wrote in message > news:br5rgg$23c0n5$1@ID-123442.news.uni-berlin.de… >> Call me old fashioned but if I’m inviting someone to a wedding where >> I am the hostess an open bar is a given, regardless of the number of >> guests invited! However, I agree a wedding doesn’t have to be a >> catered affair at $30 per head. > I agree – if I invite you to a party, to my home, or anything like > that, the food/drinks are on me.

Damn right! > Call me old fashioned too, but I really don’t like "I’m having a > party. You’re invited. Please bring the dessert/soda/chips/etc"

I agree, although I think there is a place for the casual ‘pot luck’ style of dinner/party where it’s a group effort and one person is just providing the venue. But that’s an "our party" rather than "my party" situation.

Response:

Rauni wrote: > On Wed, 10 Dec 2003 12:27:37 +1100, "Tai" <tainu…@yahoo.com> wrote: >> I agree, although I think there is a place for the casual ‘pot luck’ >> style of dinner/party where it’s a group effort and one person is >> just providing the venue. But that’s an "our party" rather than "my >> party" situation. > Well those were always the best parties that I went too. And when I > gave them I always proved the drinks and the main dish.

Yep, that’s the custom here too. Mind you, no matter how much liquor the nominal host provides all the other attendees bring a bottle or two or three anyway.

Response:

*snip* . "You have > witnessed our vows — I have fed you well — now you are obligated to > help me uphold my vows and support my marriage." > Just a thought. What do y’all think? > jen

Interesting possibilities.  I am curious to know what you consider "community support" and you think that the community supports a married couple. As far as my marriage is concerned the less "outside influence" the better. There isn’t anything I can imagine more distasteful than having "other people" have any impact whatsoever in my marriage.  Which, I guess is why we had a ceremony at the courthouse with a justice of the peace, (who was, by the way, a total pain in the ass, but that is a different post).  Even the ONE outside person who was involved in our marriage nearly ruined it for us. Inviting people to have any input whatsoever in a marriage is just begging for nothing but problems, if you ask me. SD

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Chrys wrote: > "shinypenny" <shinypenny0…@yahoo.com> wrote in message > news:c8cb5319.0312091221.762ecf9f@posting.google.com… >> The single greatest expense of a wedding tends to be the reception. >> On average, it costs over $8,000 to feed all those guests at a >> $22,000 wedding. Surely you can have a wedding without a reception, >> or you can cut corners and have a cash bar or simple cake & coffee >> thing. But the vast amount of people don’t tend to do that. They >> tend to put on a spread with open bar and full dinner. >> When I ask myself why, the answer seems to be that it is something >> about the exchange — parents of the bride and/or wedding couple >> shares food with the guests, guests give presents to the couple — >> that might be less about luxury expenditures and more about some >> basic human instinct to secure a promise from the community. "You >> have witnessed our vows — I have fed you well — now you are >> obligated to help me uphold my vows and support my marriage." >> Just a thought. What do y’all think? >> jen > Even if you’re right, the same thing can be done without spending a > fortune.  Couples do not need to invite hundreds of people they don’t > know (and consider that those they don’t know will not be giving them > any support).  If they invite those that are closest to them to > witness, then the cost does not need to be much.  Having a meal with > those people also does not need to cost much.  It doesn’t have to be > fancy catered $30+ per person with an open bar.

Call me old fashioned but if I’m inviting someone to a wedding where I am the hostess an open bar is a given, regardless of the number of guests invited! However, I agree a wedding doesn’t have to be a catered affair at $30 per head. Tai

Response:

"Tai" <tainu…@yahoo.com> wrote in message

news:br5rgg$23c0n5$1@ID-123442.news.uni-berlin.de… > Call me old fashioned but if I’m inviting someone to a wedding where I am > the hostess an open bar is a given, regardless of the number of guests > invited! However, I agree a wedding doesn’t have to be a catered affair at > $30 per head.

I agree – if I invite you to a party, to my home, or anything like that, the food/drinks are on me. Call me old fashioned too, but I really don’t like "I’m having a party. You’re invited. Please bring the dessert/soda/chips/etc"

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -shinypenny wrote: > Haven’t said much about this whole Insanity thread (avoiding the > trolls), but it did get me thinking. > Undoubtedly people nowadays are encouraged to view weddings as a > luxury item and splurge accordingly. However, I think there might be > something more going on here. > When I was first married, the priest explained to us that a wedding > involved the couple, God, and the community. The community part might > be viewed as optional, but he explained that there is a good reason > people invite their family and friends to witness their weddings: it > is a way of securing the community’s promise to help support the > marriage. > Another thing I have been thinking about is how sharing meals tends to > be a culturally universal way in which people interact and seal bonds > with each other, whether it be a simple sit-down dinner with your > immediate family, a thanksgiving feast between Native Americans and > pilgrims, a State dinner between nations, or a wedding banquet for > hundreds of people. > The single greatest expense of a wedding tends to be the reception. On > average, it costs over $8,000 to feed all those guests at a $22,000 > wedding. Surely you can have a wedding without a reception, or you can > cut corners and have a cash bar or simple cake & coffee thing. But the > vast amount of people don’t tend to do that. They tend to put on a > spread with open bar and full dinner. > When I ask myself why, the answer seems to be that it is something > about the exchange — parents of the bride and/or wedding couple > shares food with the guests, guests give presents to the couple — > that might be less about luxury expenditures and more about some basic > human instinct to secure a promise from the community. "You have > witnessed our vows — I have fed you well — now you are obligated to > help me uphold my vows and support my marriage." > Just a thought. What do y’all think?

I think there might be something to the notion that the more witnesses to a wedding ceremony the more people would be interested in its success but that was probably true for our parents and for a few generations before them rather than now. Marriage in western societies is too disposable these days for couples to be able to look to their community for more than lip service support although close family members are likely to be more interested in supporting an ailing marriage of one of their own. Except, of course,  for the ones who thought you should never have married the waste of space in the first place! Tai

Response:

"shinypenny" <shinypenny0…@yahoo.com> wrote in message

news:c8cb5319.0312091221.762ecf9f@posting.google.com… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Haven’t said much about this whole Insanity thread (avoiding the > trolls), but it did get me thinking. > Undoubtedly people nowadays are encouraged to view weddings as a > luxury item and splurge accordingly. However, I think there might be > something more going on here. > When I was first married, the priest explained to us that a wedding > involved the couple, God, and the community. The community part might > be viewed as optional, but he explained that there is a good reason > people invite their family and friends to witness their weddings: it > is a way of securing the community’s promise to help support the > marriage. > Another thing I have been thinking about is how sharing meals tends to > be a culturally universal way in which people interact and seal bonds > with each other, whether it be a simple sit-down dinner with your > immediate family, a thanksgiving feast between Native Americans and > pilgrims, a State dinner between nations, or a wedding banquet for > hundreds of people. > The single greatest expense of a wedding tends to be the reception. On > average, it costs over $8,000 to feed all those guests at a $22,000 > wedding. Surely you can have a wedding without a reception, or you can > cut corners and have a cash bar or simple cake & coffee thing. But the > vast amount of people don’t tend to do that. They tend to put on a > spread with open bar and full dinner. > When I ask myself why, the answer seems to be that it is something > about the exchange — parents of the bride and/or wedding couple > shares food with the guests, guests give presents to the couple — > that might be less about luxury expenditures and more about some basic > human instinct to secure a promise from the community. "You have > witnessed our vows — I have fed you well — now you are obligated to > help me uphold my vows and support my marriage." > Just a thought. What do y’all think? > jen

I know what you mean.  In my case we had been together for about 5 years prior to getting married, so we thought why all the fuss?  Our immediate family and friends came down and we got married at the justice of the peace, then had a nice reception lunch at a restaurant.  I had the best little white chocolate raspberry cake!  It was nice because it was intimate without all the wedding hassle… Jenn

Response:

"shinypenny" <shinypenny0…@yahoo.com> wrote in message

news:c8cb5319.0312091221.762ecf9f@posting.google.com… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Haven’t said much about this whole Insanity thread (avoiding the > trolls), but it did get me thinking. > Undoubtedly people nowadays are encouraged to view weddings as a > luxury item and splurge accordingly. However, I think there might be > something more going on here. > When I was first married, the priest explained to us that a wedding > involved the couple, God, and the community. The community part might > be viewed as optional, but he explained that there is a good reason > people invite their family and friends to witness their weddings: it > is a way of securing the community’s promise to help support the > marriage. > Another thing I have been thinking about is how sharing meals tends to > be a culturally universal way in which people interact and seal bonds > with each other, whether it be a simple sit-down dinner with your > immediate family, a thanksgiving feast between Native Americans and > pilgrims, a State dinner between nations, or a wedding banquet for > hundreds of people. > The single greatest expense of a wedding tends to be the reception. On > average, it costs over $8,000 to feed all those guests at a $22,000 > wedding. Surely you can have a wedding without a reception, or you can > cut corners and have a cash bar or simple cake & coffee thing. But the > vast amount of people don’t tend to do that. They tend to put on a > spread with open bar and full dinner. > When I ask myself why, the answer seems to be that it is something > about the exchange — parents of the bride and/or wedding couple > shares food with the guests, guests give presents to the couple — > that might be less about luxury expenditures and more about some basic > human instinct to secure a promise from the community. "You have > witnessed our vows — I have fed you well — now you are obligated to > help me uphold my vows and support my marriage." > Just a thought. What do y’all think?

I think having a fancy reception is stupid. I think people do it because they feel they are "supposed" to. That somehow, it’s not a real marriage unless you have the chicken dance or whatnot. However, on the flip side of the coin, when people spend a decent sum of money to come to your wedding, well, you kinda owe them. I got into an argument this past summer with a friend because he asked me to be an usher at his full blown, tux and gown wedding – I agreed, but then found out he was having a "firehouse hall / cash bar / Aunt Betty’s ziti over sterno / cousin Joe (with the big cassette collection) spinning the tunes type reception…. so, basically, he’s cutting corners on HIS payout, but wants me to rent a tux, and my wife to buy a gown. Ummm… no. I don’t think so. I told him if he wanted to have a cheap justice of the peace wedding at his apartment and go out for beer and pretzels, I’m all for that – as it stood, his reception would have been fine if all he asked me to do was attend (or just wear a suit). But I feel if you’re gonna ask me and your other buddies to rent a tux (and ask the women to *buy* gowns), you’d better provide open bar. Sorry if it seems shallow, but I think it’s tacky to do it any other way. But I see this as becoming increasingly popular – cut corners on the reception, but still expect a full-blown wedding. Cheap friends I do not need. JWB

Response:

"shinypenny" <shinypenny0…@yahoo.com> wrote in message

news:c8cb5319.0312091221.762ecf9f@posting.google.com… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> The single greatest expense of a wedding tends to be the reception. On > average, it costs over $8,000 to feed all those guests at a $22,000 > wedding. Surely you can have a wedding without a reception, or you can > cut corners and have a cash bar or simple cake & coffee thing. But the > vast amount of people don’t tend to do that. They tend to put on a > spread with open bar and full dinner. > When I ask myself why, the answer seems to be that it is something > about the exchange — parents of the bride and/or wedding couple > shares food with the guests, guests give presents to the couple — > that might be less about luxury expenditures and more about some basic > human instinct to secure a promise from the community. "You have > witnessed our vows — I have fed you well — now you are obligated to > help me uphold my vows and support my marriage." > Just a thought. What do y’all think? > jen

Even if you’re right, the same thing can be done without spending a fortune.  Couples do not need to invite hundreds of people they don’t know (and consider that those they don’t know will not be giving them any support).  If they invite those that are closest to them to witness, then the cost does not need to be much.  Having a meal with those people also does not need to cost much.  It doesn’t have to be fancy catered $30+ per person with an open bar.

Response:

I think "traditionally" speaking you are correct.. but in today’s world I see it more of a "look at us" more than a "community involvement" Kass "shinypenny" <shinypenny0…@yahoo.com> wrote in message

news:c8cb5319.0312091221.762ecf9f@posting.google.com… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Haven’t said much about this whole Insanity thread (avoiding the > trolls), but it did get me thinking. > Undoubtedly people nowadays are encouraged to view weddings as a > luxury item and splurge accordingly. However, I think there might be > something more going on here. > When I was first married, the priest explained to us that a wedding > involved the couple, God, and the community. The community part might > be viewed as optional, but he explained that there is a good reason > people invite their family and friends to witness their weddings: it > is a way of securing the community’s promise to help support the > marriage. > Another thing I have been thinking about is how sharing meals tends to > be a culturally universal way in which people interact and seal bonds > with each other, whether it be a simple sit-down dinner with your > immediate family, a thanksgiving feast between Native Americans and > pilgrims, a State dinner between nations, or a wedding banquet for > hundreds of people. > The single greatest expense of a wedding tends to be the reception. On > average, it costs over $8,000 to feed all those guests at a $22,000 > wedding. Surely you can have a wedding without a reception, or you can > cut corners and have a cash bar or simple cake & coffee thing. But the > vast amount of people don’t tend to do that. They tend to put on a > spread with open bar and full dinner. > When I ask myself why, the answer seems to be that it is something > about the exchange — parents of the bride and/or wedding couple > shares food with the guests, guests give presents to the couple — > that might be less about luxury expenditures and more about some basic > human instinct to secure a promise from the community. "You have > witnessed our vows — I have fed you well — now you are obligated to > help me uphold my vows and support my marriage." > Just a thought. What do y’all think? > jen

Response:

Haven’t said much about this whole Insanity thread (avoiding the trolls), but it did get me thinking. Undoubtedly people nowadays are encouraged to view weddings as a luxury item and splurge accordingly. However, I think there might be something more going on here. When I was first married, the priest explained to us that a wedding involved the couple, God, and the community. The community part might be viewed as optional, but he explained that there is a good reason people invite their family and friends to witness their weddings: it is a way of securing the community’s promise to help support the marriage. Another thing I have been thinking about is how sharing meals tends to be a culturally universal way in which people interact and seal bonds with each other, whether it be a simple sit-down dinner with your immediate family, a thanksgiving feast between Native Americans and pilgrims, a State dinner between nations, or a wedding banquet for hundreds of people. The single greatest expense of a wedding tends to be the reception. On average, it costs over $8,000 to feed all those guests at a $22,000 wedding. Surely you can have a wedding without a reception, or you can cut corners and have a cash bar or simple cake & coffee thing. But the vast amount of people don’t tend to do that. They tend to put on a spread with open bar and full dinner. When I ask myself why, the answer seems to be that it is something about the exchange — parents of the bride and/or wedding couple shares food with the guests, guests give presents to the couple — that might be less about luxury expenditures and more about some basic human instinct to secure a promise from the community. "You have witnessed our vows — I have fed you well — now you are obligated to help me uphold my vows and support my marriage." Just a thought. What do y’all think? jen

Response:

Everything was fine until Ex remarried

Question:

Dee said for all posterity… By the end of September he called me to say that, "Cindy has decided that we should not be spending holidays together." I was completely floored.

Why?  If you didn’t see this one coming, you were a bit naive.   He’s your *ex* husband.  If the two of you wanted to spend all your holidays together, you should be married. I dont know what to do. I did give them the presents today ONLY for the sake of the kids.

The kids are the main point.  It’s nice that you provided presents for them. At this point I only want email contact with them. I will let them see the kids for 4 hours on Christmas, but they will be un-invited to my parents house for Christmas night.

Honestly, that’s probably the way it should be. My ex and I have always wanted a partner/spouse that would share the holidays. I don’t know what happened.

Realism happened.  I think you had unrealistic expectations.  I can’t imagine many new spouses who would want to spend holidays with an ex-spouse.  It’s the old "two’s company but three’s just too damned many" problem. Think of it from another viewpoint.  You meet someone special.  He wants to spend the holidays with you and build new memories.  Do you think he’d want to share every holiday with your ex-husband?   You might be surprised to see how you would feel under those circumstances. Casey I drive way too fast to worry about cholesterol.

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Think of it from another viewpoint.  You meet someone special.  He wants to spend the holidays with you and build new memories.  Do you think he’d want to share every holiday with your ex-husband?  

Or how about this…..if/when Dee gets a new husband, is he going to expect his ex wife to spend every holiday with he and Dee? Lauri in WA I like my email spamless

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This was not your typical divorce. Him and I were very good friends. We fell out of love and became best friends but couldn’t fit the "lover" into the relationship.

With all due respect, I don’t buy this.  If you truly loved each other, then those reasons were still there.  The two of you just needed a desire to find them again.  Who’s idea was the divorce?  Who filed? I didnt think having dinner with my children on Thanksgiving was asking for the world.

No, it’s not the world.  I had T-giving dinner at my ex’s home after we split the first year.  It was "not right".  I was invited again this year.  I politely declined.  I had no desire.  Anyway, it’s one of the unpleasant realities of divorce is that you don’t see your own kids on some holidays.

Response:

She’s probably trying to set up her own life now with your ex.    And feels she can’t do it, w/o breaking free.   Which just may be the truth.    It also sounds like *you* went in with some unrealistic expectations.   But those expectations are basically your own, and probably not very realistic (to be perfectly honest) over the long run, or maybe the short run, either. Things *have* changed now, and you’ll have to accept that, and let go, or (alternatively) go mad in the process. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’m going to have to digest all the responses. But what seems to be a common thread is that she came into the picture and changed everything. That isn’t the case. They have been together for over a year and just married in September. The three of us agreed to spend the holidays together sitting at my kitchen table. This was not your typical divorce. Him and I were very good friends. We fell out of love and became best friends but couldn’t fit the "lover" into the relationship. I didnt think having dinner with my children on Thanksgiving was asking for the world. And the reason for email contact only is because I don’t want to talk to her. It’s like I helped them in every way I possible could and she turned on me. She got what she wanted (gifts, money) now I’m not good enough to eat dinner with. If my ex flat-out refuses to speak to me, why am I forced to talk to her? I called, she answered the phone, I asked to talk to  my ex and she said, there’s no need to talk to him,  these are the days. Well, Dee, as the second wife of a man with children from his first marriage and the mother of two children who would probably have to go through this sort of thing if we divorced, I *think* I can kinda see some of both (three??) sides of this. Your side: This is my ex. We have children together. We need to work together to raise these kids. Things were going great when it was just me and him, now it’s all *her* fault that it’s not going great. His side: She is my ex. We have children together We need to work together to raise these kids. But, now I’m married to her. I have to work with her or I’ll be di- vorced again. The way my ex and I worked things out before I married were okay, but now there’s another person I have to consider and it’s durned difficult to keep both of them happy. It’s hard as hell keeping *two* women happy. Her side: She is his ex. I am his wife. I don’t want to mess up things that were working great before, but, durnit, how am *I* supposed to feel like THE wife when he’s still doing everything the way she wants it done? I don’t want it done that way. Now, I’m not saying that this is *exactly* how you all are thinking, but it’s a possibility. When my husband and I married, I know that a lot of the changes that happened when it came to how he dealt with his ex and his older kids was perceived as being ‘my fault’. In a way they were, in a way there weren’t. Things that were acceptable for my husband when he was single were suddenly not acceptable or not doable when he was married and then had two other kids on top of it all. There were plenty of times when I was like ‘What? Why do you do THAT?’ when it came to his ex and what it came down to was that it wasn’t worth the hassle for him when it was just him. When another person was being inconvenienced (and when the other person was someone he had married and wanted to remain married to), he was more apt to face the hassle with his ex than when it was just him. I’m not so sure I like the ‘you don’t need to speak with him’ part, although there might be a reason for it (as far as Cindy is concerned.) You have kids with *him*, not her, and, as such, IMO, you should be speaking with him. At the same time, if she’s of the opinion that he’ll ‘give away the farm’, so to speak, if he’s the one doing the talking, that could be why she’s saying this. But….that’s a problem between *them* and you really don’t have to accept the ‘You can’t speak with him’ edict if you don’t want to. How to get to speak to him, I don’t really know, except for going the legal route.  At this point I only want email contact with them. Well, now you’re doing to *them* what you’re pissed off at them for doing. Making changes to the way things ‘were’ without talking to them about it. It’s kinda difficult to ‘take the high road’ when you’re down there on the low road right alongside them. Not that I don’t think that e-mail contact only is a horrible way to run things. In some cases, it would be preferred, AFAIC. It’s a way to make sure that everyone at least has the opportunity to see what is being pro- posed, it gives people time to think about their response instead of the first thing that pops in their head being presented, and it leaves a paper trail so that people can go back and refresh their memory as to what has been discussed. But I don’t think that a pronouncement of ‘I only want to deal with you through e-mail from now on’ is going to fly. You have *two* people who will have to agree with it now, not just one.  I will let them see the kids for 4 hours on Christmas, Is that wise? Does that go against the formal agreement that you have with your ex regarding time with the kids? If it does and you just haven’t enforced it up until now, you might want to consider the ramifications of enforcing it now. What little tidbits in the agreement can be used against you if he so chose? Don’t use time with the chil- dren as an attempt to punish your ex for not behaving in the manner you want him to.  but they will be un-invited to my parents house for  Christmas night. That’s perfectly fine, IMO, unless you’re uninviting them to ‘punish’ them for not going along with your wishes. I, personally, would not be comfortable spending time at the holidays with either my ex or my husband’s ex and actually quite envy people who are able to do it without a lot of tension.  My ex and I have always wanted a partner/spouse that would  share the holidays. I don’t know what happened. Well, what happened is that your ex now has a partner that *doesn’t* share that. The reality you have to deal with now is that the dynamics of your relationship with your ex has changed due to the addition of another person in his life. As important as it might be to keep his relationship with you, his ex, on an even keel because of having children together, it is probably *more* important for him to keep his relationship with his wife on an even keel. And, maybe I’m biased, but I gotta agree with that (as long as it’s not affecting his relationship with the kids and, it seems to me, that you’re doing more to alter that relationship than they are.) Tracey

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I know this was meant in good humour, but don’t ya all think it might be hurting Dee a bit to read this?    It sounds like she’s a bit on edge as it is. But I could be misreading. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I can just see it now… Dee + ex-husband + ex-husbands’s new wife + Dee’s new husband +  Dee’s new husband’s ex-wife + Dee’s new husband’s ex-wife’s former husband + …. + 1,257 kids…. Wow. I wonder if we can play "six degrees of separation" and figure out a way for the whole NG to spend Christmas at Dee’s?

Response:

Wow!  This all sounds very much like it was here, too. I snipped the rest, but it is a very insightful post. Thanks, ML. I think one of the hardest things that I have ever had to do was to try to get into my husband’s ex’s mind and figure out why she did some of the things she did. Not ‘hard’ as far as the work was concerned but ‘hard’ as in ‘It would be so much easier just to believe she was being a wench.’ And, let’s face it, we don’t *want* to have to consider someone else as a part of our marriage.

Even if we’re paying them LOTS of alimony. People keep telling me to consider household income as "ours" – well, if i do that, then i’m paying alimony to another woman for sleeping with my husband in the past – and that’s not a healthy thought.   As it is, feels weird that my income just about matches the alimony check.

Response:

And, if it were me, sitting at a kitchen table with my BF or even husband and his ex while they discussed the kids would be a very difficult position to be in. And I would find it difficult to say what I *really* felt or thought with you there. And, well, what’s wrong with changing your mind? I do it quite a bit, actually. Some- thing sounds okay on the surface, but once I really think about it, it doesn’t sound so good.

Or once you actually TRY it… I’ve been at that "table" with my bf/now-husband, his ex and their kids. It’s a VERY difficult place to be in.    Not so much discussion of their kids, but when she starts in with the "remember back when we (meaning she and him) It’s just NOT healthy for OUR marriage.   It may or may not have been intentional, but nevertheless, it was inappropriate.  The "i made him a better man for you" comments and details of their intimate life, and alleged abuse, i’m sure, WERE intentional.   Also, her telling me "things" about her kids, while they were living with me, was strange.  What she told me and what i observed didn’t match up at all. Again, uncomfortable position.  Not something i’d recommend to anyone starting a new relationship, and definitely not conducive to a healthy and loving "newlywed" period.   I’m not saying the OP behaves this way, but it’s something to keep in mind, as some of it could be purely unintentional.  I’d feel much more welcoming of my predecessor if she hadn’t said that stuff.

Response:

It’s easy to have this vision of how post-divorce relationships should proceed, but once you’re in the thick of things, reality sets in. I think the new wife is perfectly normal in wanting to have their own Christmas, and not spend it at her husband’s ex-wife’s mother’s. If she knows that her husband is discussing their marital problems with you, she has every right to be incensed by that. She probably feels hugely uncomfortable accepting a thousand dollars worth of Christmas gifts from you for the kids. Your heart may have been in the right place (did they *ask* you to help out?), but can’t you see how that could be taken as a huge slap in the face? If y’all wanted to spend holidays together, y’all should have stayed married to each other. Back out of your ex’s life, and stop acting like it’s some huge personal affront that this woman doesn’t want to be your buddy.

Response:

I can just see it now… Dee + ex-husband + ex-husbands’s new wife + Dee’s new husband +  Dee’s new husband’s ex-wife + Dee’s new husband’s ex-wife’s former husband + …. + 1,257 kids…. Wow.

I wonder if we can play "six degrees of separation" and figure out a way for the whole NG to spend Christmas at Dee’s?

Response:

 The three of us agreed to spend the holidays together  sitting at my kitchen table.

there are more interesting ways to spend the holidays than sitting at your kitchen table.  Perhaps she wants to be more active ). bogey

Response:

 I’m going to have to digest all the responses. That’s a good thing to do, Dee. People generally present opinions based on their own experiences and what they’ve observed. Doesn’t mean that it will automatically be the same way in your situation.  But what seems to be a common thread is that she came  into the picture and changed everything. That isn’t the  case. They have been together for over a year and just  married in September. But, IIRC, the timeline when it all started being a problem was right after the wedding, right? There’s a *big* difference, IMO and in a lot of cases, between being the GF (even the live-in GF) of a man with chil- dren and the wife of a man with children.  The three of us agreed to spend the holidays together  sitting at my kitchen table. And, if it were me, sitting at a kitchen table with my BF or even husband and his ex while they discussed the kids would be a very difficult position to be in. And I would find it difficult to say what I *really* felt or thought with you there. And, well, what’s wrong with changing your mind? I do it quite a bit, actually. Some- thing sounds okay on the surface, but once I really think about it, it doesn’t sound so good.  This was not your typical divorce. Him and I were very  good friends. We fell out of love and became best friends  but couldn’t fit the "lover" into the relationship. Here, again, I think you’re getting stuck on what ‘was’ instead of thinking about what ‘is’.  I didnt think having dinner with my children on Thanks-  giving was asking for the world. It’s not. But, in a divorce situation, it’s also not some- thing that you can expect to be automatically ‘given’ either.  And the reason for email contact only is because I don’t  want to talk to her. And that’s okay. OTOH, they could just as easily say ‘We don’t wanna do e-mail. You’ll have to talk to us’ and then where are you going to be?  It’s like I helped them in every way I possible could and  she turned on me. She got what she wanted (gifts, money)  now I’m not good enough to eat dinner with. That’s just your supposition. You don’t *really* know what’s going on, you’re just guessing.  If my ex flat-out refuses to speak to me, why am I forced  to talk to her? Well, you’re not, of course, but you knew that. One thing that you might want to consider, also, is Cindy’s culture. You haven’t mentioned what country she’s from (and it’s not necessary to) but you might want to look at the cultural ‘norms’ there. Is it a matriarchal culture? The wife rules the household sorta thing? If it isn’t, it’s highly possible that Cindy’s family was that way. It may not have anything at all to do with you as a person, just that Cindy’s role in her marriage is the basis for a lot of this. And there’s also the possibility that she has friends/ family that have said things that have caused her atti- tude to change. My mother, for instance, has made quite a few comments about how I’ve chosen to react when it comes to my husband’s ex and the older kids. It could be a matter of being instigated to do things by other people. Tracey

Response:

 Wow!  This all sounds very much like it was here, too.  I snipped the rest, but it is a very insightful post. Thanks, ML. I think one of the hardest things that I have ever had to do was to try to get into my husband’s ex’s mind and figure out why she did some of the things she did. Not ‘hard’ as far as the work was concerned but ‘hard’ as in ‘It would be so much easier just to believe she was being a wench.’ And, let’s face it, we don’t *want* to have to consider someone else as a part of our marriage. Tracey

Response:

I’m going to have to digest all the responses. But what seems to be a common thread is that she came into the picture and changed everything. That isn’t the case. They have been together for over a year and just married in September. The three of us agreed to spend the holidays together sitting at my kitchen table. This was not your typical divorce. Him and I were very good friends. We fell out of love

Divorces are not like you seem to think they are, it just isn’t like that.  Many people think they are at the beginning though – its a stage to work through.  You’re on the next stage now. And the reason for email contact only is because I don’t want to talk to her.

That’s normal. Email is a good mechanism. It’s like I helped them in every way I possible could and she turned on me. She got what she wanted (gifts, money) now I’m not good enough to eat dinner with. If my ex flat-out refuses to speak to me, why am I forced to talk to her?

You aren’t forced to talk with anyone (do you have strings on your mouth ?). You seem to have inflexible expectations of the "I behaved like this so she should behave like that" kind.  People aren’t like that.  The world isn’t the way you like it.  Best to accept that because you can’t change it – but you *can* change yourself. bogey

Response:

Lauri said for all posterity… Think of it from another viewpoint.  You meet someone special.  He wants to spend the holidays with you and build new memories.  Do you think he’d want to share every holiday with your ex-husband?   Or how about this…..if/when Dee gets a new husband, is he going to expect his ex wife to spend every holiday with he and Dee?

I can just see it now… Dee + ex-husband + ex-husbands’s new wife + Dee’s new husband +  Dee’s new husband’s ex-wife + Dee’s new husband’s ex-wife’s former husband + …. + 1,257 kids…. Wow. Casey I drive way too fast to worry about cholesterol.

Response:

Dee … Just to satisfy my curiousity, where is this "Cindy" from, another planet? It seems your ex has picked a women that is the complete oppisite of what you seem to be. IMHO, you’d should put a screaching halt to all this ‘help’ you’re being to them. Since you have the kids, I’d start making plans of your own with other members of your/the family, so the holidays will be a pleasurable, not a nightnmare. You have a different ball game here Screw Cindy. You’d better set some ground rules. nm

Response:

 At this point I only want email contact with them.

Since they’re playing hardball w. you, play it back.  His "new" bride seems to have changed once she landed your ex.  Fine.  Cut them no slack in the child support.  She’s not your friend and your ex is an ass for changing "verbal" plans for the holidays.  Tell them you want payment in full, the 1st of the month (or whatever), or you’ll get a court to enforce it.

Response:

I’m sorry – please keep posting because this is a place for support.  But its also a place for honesty and I think you have some painful learning to do. I’ve commented on the things you have said not to be hard on you but to draw attention to some things. Some changes *are* painful and there’s no other way. I don’t suppose you will enjoy what I have said below. agreed the kids need to come first. We filed the divorce ourselves, no problems, no arguments. He met another lady who was very good to our kids. I was extremely

It seems to me that this kind-of civilised feeling is/was an illusion and the real adjustment hadn’t started.  I’m sorry but its a long road that I think you now have to travel. By the end of September he called me to say that, "Cindy has decided that we should not be spending holidays together." I was completely

I’m not surprised – he’s married to *her* now, not you. but my Ex needed to call me so we could sort the fight out. He never

You seem to expect to have the same relationship with your ex as when married – the patterns of interaction will change (and *are* changing) It’s getting close to Thanksgiving and my kids are crying because they aren’t spending it with me. I called my Ex and asked if there is a way we can spend it together since everything was going fine. They already made plans to go out of town with the kids that day and Cindy won’t change the plans… and she still feels we should not share the holidays.

Well this is what divorce is – you can’t expect to share his new wife’s life or for her to want to share yours.  You and he aren’t married any more. I am livid. I called my ex at work, asked him not to tell her what I’m sayiing on the phone to him, I just wanted to vent to him about how used I feel. We hung up and he called her and told her everything I said. I think he should have told me before I vented that he couldn’t

He has every right to.  When I was married I shared everything with my wife.  Its not appropriate to share with another woman person you keep from your spouse.  You don’t have that special relationship with him any more.  It seems that he and his wife have realised that but you haven’t. keep secrets from her and he was going to tell her everything. When they had fights he would call me to get a woman’s perspective and asked me not to tell her we talked, so this wasn’t unusual.

And now its time he grew up and stopped asking you.  As he is doing.  I mean nothing negative about you but she is wise for realising that she needs to break his dependence on you. At this point I only want email contact with them. I will let them see the kids for 4 hours on Christmas, but they will be un-invited to my

Well as a man I think you are being selfish.  They are his kids. You have no right to dole out time and use it as a mechanism to control him.  Its time you BOTH took responsibility for the children. parents house for Christmas night. My ex and I have always wanted a

My ex and I ?  That relationship has *gone*. partner/spouse that would share the holidays. I don’t know what happened.

You got divorced.  That’s what happened. Did your ex continue his old relationships with his friends in the same old ways after he married you ?  Of course he didn’t.  And you shouldn’t expect that from him now either.  He’s not yours any more. The reality is that you have no power over him and his wife and its right that you don’t.  Being generous with money and presents doesn’t buy you anything.  I appreciate that this is probably a painful time for you because you are meeting circumstances that you can’t control.  Its only going to get worse.  The only power you have is over your own life now.  Both of you have a respoonsibility to be fair and co-operative over the children and not use them to control the other in any way.  Being without your children at special times and not being able to provide them with loving together-times can be a painful experience.  Its no less painful for a man than a woman and you can’t demand your ex fit with your ideas of how it should be. I’m sorry, my heart goes out to you but this is how it is. Look to your own happiness, grieve that things are not the way you would like them and nurture yourself. Stick around, there’s a lot you can learn on here. bogey

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Well, Dee, as the second wife of a man with children from his first marriage and the mother of two children who would probably have to go through this sort of thing if we divorced, I *think* I can kinda see some of both (three??) sides of this. Your side: This is my ex. We have children together. We need to work together to raise these kids. Things were going great when it was just me and him, now it’s all *her* fault that it’s not going great. His side: She is my ex. We have children together We need to work together to raise these kids. But, now I’m married to her. I have to work with her or I’ll be di- vorced again. The way my ex and I worked things out before I married were okay, but now there’s another person I have to consider and it’s durned difficult to keep both of them happy. It’s hard as hell keeping *two* women happy. Her side: She is his ex. I am his wife. I don’t want to mess up things that were working great before, but, durnit, how am *I* supposed to feel like THE wife when he’s still doing everything the way she wants it done? I don’t want it done that way. Now, I’m not saying that this is *exactly* how you all are thinking, but it’s a possibility. When my husband and I married, I know that a lot of the changes that happened when it came to how he dealt with his ex and his older kids was perceived as being ‘my fault’. In a way they were, in a way there weren’t. Things that were acceptable for my husband when he was single were suddenly not acceptable or not doable when he was married

Wow!  This all sounds very much like it was here, too. I snipped the rest, but it is a very insightful post.

Response:

As others have said, your expectations that your ex’s behavior and cooperation would not change once he remarried were unrealistic. As many of us guys know, wife #2 is "she who must be obeyed." She may see you now as a rival or potential threat to his affections. My 2 cents:  Forget about trying to be friends.  Instead shoot for being business-like & diplomatic.  [Rog'] – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi and thanks for reading. This is my first posting to this board. My ex and I have been very good friends until he remarried. We were together 18 years, have three little ones under 8. We have always agreed the kids need to come first. We filed the divorce ourselves, no problems, no arguments. He met another lady who was very good to our kids. I was extremely grateful for that. She came to the US from another country to move in with my Ex. She cannot work in the States legally so I showed her how I work out of the house. I showed her the ropes so she could do this on her own. The three of us would even go out and have a beer or two together. I would cut down on child support when I knew they were low on money. Then they got married in September, 2003 and all hell has broken loose. By the end of September he called me to say that, "Cindy has decided that we should not be spending holidays together." I was completely floored. Ex and I got into a fight the week of Halloween. I called Cindy and told her they were still welcome to go with us on Halloween, but my Ex needed to call me so we could sort the fight out. He never called. Cindy called and asked if I would bring the kids over so they could see them dressed up. I did that, but stayed in the car while they took pictures. Fast forward to 2 weeks ago. I drop our youngest off at their house. My ex is literally in tears because they cannot afford Christmas this year and don’t have enough money for the bills this month. I offer a few side jobs that would pay good money and they take me up on that. I also offered to give them 30 presents for each child that I have had tucked away for Christmas (about $1,000.00 in toys total that I gave them) They are very thankful that I’m helping them. I know the INS attorney is costing them a fortune and he is the only one really working and bringing money in. I cut down on my child support by 50% for December so they can have some money for gifts and give them 100.00 cash for her dad’s birthday. Cindy’s parents will be in town in a few days. It’s getting close to Thanksgiving and my kids are crying because they aren’t spending it with me. I called my Ex and asked if there is a way we can spend it together since everything was going fine. They already made plans to go out of town with the kids that day and Cindy won’t change the plans… and she still feels we should not share the holidays. I am livid. I called my ex at work, asked him not to tell her what I’m sayiing on the phone to him, I just wanted to vent to him about how used I feel. We hung up and he called her and told her everything I said. I think he should have told me before I vented that he couldn’t keep secrets from her and he was going to tell her everything. When they had fights he would call me to get a woman’s perspective and asked me not to tell her we talked, so this wasn’t unusual. I dont know what to do. I did give them the presents today ONLY for the sake of the kids. My ex has not called me since I vented to him on the phone while he was at work. Cindy told me to call him and set up the visitation days that week. I called, she answered the phone, I asked to talk to my ex and she said, there’s no need to talk to him, these are the days. At this point I only want email contact with them. I will let them see the kids for 4 hours on Christmas, but they will be un-invited to my parents house for Christmas night. My ex and I have always wanted a partner/spouse that would share the holidays. I don’t know what happened. Sorry this is so long.

Response:

I’m going to have to digest all the responses. But what seems to be a common thread is that she came into the picture and changed everything. That isn’t the case. They have been together for over a year and just married in September. The three of us agreed to spend the holidays together sitting at my kitchen table. This was not your typical divorce. Him and I were very good friends. We fell out of love and became best friends but couldn’t fit the "lover" into the relationship. I didnt think having dinner with my children on Thanksgiving was asking for the world. And the reason for email contact only is because I don’t want to talk to her. It’s like I helped them in every way I possible could and she turned on me. She got what she wanted (gifts, money) now I’m not good enough to eat dinner with. If my ex flat-out refuses to speak to me, why am I forced to talk to her?

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I called, she answered the phone, I asked to talk to  my ex and she said, there’s no need to talk to him,  these are the days. Well, Dee, as the second wife of a man with children from his first marriage and the mother of two children who would probably have to go through this sort of thing if we divorced, I *think* I can kinda see some of both (three??) sides of this. Your side: This is my ex. We have children together. We need to work together to raise these kids. Things were going great when it was just me and him, now it’s all *her* fault that it’s not going great. His side: She is my ex. We have children together We need to work together to raise these kids. But, now I’m married to her. I have to work with her or I’ll be di- vorced again. The way my ex and I worked things out before I married were okay, but now there’s another person I have to consider and it’s durned difficult to keep both of them happy. It’s hard as hell keeping *two* women happy. Her side: She is his ex. I am his wife. I don’t want to mess up things that were working great before, but, durnit, how am *I* supposed to feel like THE wife when he’s still doing everything the way she wants it done? I don’t want it done that way. Now, I’m not saying that this is *exactly* how you all are thinking, but it’s a possibility. When my husband and I married, I know that a lot of the changes that happened when it came to how he dealt with his ex and his older kids was perceived as being ‘my fault’. In a way they were, in a way there weren’t. Things that were acceptable for my husband when he was single were suddenly not acceptable or not doable when he was married and then had two other kids on top of it all. There were plenty of times when I was like ‘What? Why do you do THAT?’ when it came to his ex and what it came down to was that it wasn’t worth the hassle for him when it was just him. When another person was being inconvenienced (and when the other person was someone he had married and wanted to remain married to), he was more apt to face the hassle with his ex than when it was just him. I’m not so sure I like the ‘you don’t need to speak with him’ part, although there might be a reason for it (as far as Cindy is concerned.) You have kids with *him*, not her, and, as such, IMO, you should be speaking with him. At the same time, if she’s of the opinion that he’ll ‘give away the farm’, so to speak, if he’s the one doing the talking, that could be why she’s saying this. But….that’s a problem between *them* and you really don’t have to accept the ‘You can’t speak with him’ edict if you don’t want to. How to get to speak to him, I don’t really know, except for going the legal route.  At this point I only want email contact with them. Well, now you’re doing to *them* what you’re pissed off at them for doing. Making changes to the way things ‘were’ without talking to them about it. It’s kinda difficult to ‘take the high road’ when you’re down there on the low road right alongside them. Not that I don’t think that e-mail contact only is a horrible way to run things. In some cases, it would be preferred, AFAIC. It’s a way to make sure that everyone at least has the opportunity to see what is being pro- posed, it gives people time to think about their response instead of the first thing that pops in their head being presented, and it leaves a paper trail so that people can go back and refresh their memory as to what has been discussed. But I don’t think that a pronouncement of ‘I only want to deal with you through e-mail from now on’ is going to fly. You have *two* people who will have to agree with it now, not just one.  I will let them see the kids for 4 hours on Christmas, Is that wise? Does that go against the formal agreement that you have with your ex regarding time with the kids? If it does and you just haven’t enforced it up until now, you might want to consider the ramifications of enforcing it now. What little tidbits in the agreement can be used against you if he so chose? Don’t use time with the chil- dren as an attempt to punish your ex for not behaving in the manner you want him to.  but they will be un-invited to my parents house for  Christmas night. That’s perfectly fine, IMO, unless you’re uninviting them to ‘punish’ them for not going along with your wishes. I, personally, would not be comfortable spending time at the holidays with either my ex or my husband’s ex and actually quite envy people who are able to do it without a lot of tension.  My ex and I have always wanted a partner/spouse that would  share the holidays. I don’t know what happened. Well, what happened is that your ex now has a partner that *doesn’t* share that. The reality you have to deal with now is that the dynamics of your relationship with your ex has changed due to the addition of another person in his life. As important as it might be to keep his relationship with you, his ex, on an even keel because of having children together, it is probably *more* important for him to keep his relationship with his wife on an even keel. And, maybe I’m biased, but I gotta agree with that (as long as it’s not affecting his relationship with the kids and, it seems to me, that you’re doing more to alter that relationship than they are.) Tracey

Response:

Hi and thanks for reading. This is my first posting to this board. My ex and I have been very good friends until he remarried. We were together 18 years, have three little ones under 8. We have always agreed the kids need to come first. We filed the divorce ourselves, no problems, no arguments. He met another lady who was very good to our kids. I was extremely grateful for that. She came to the US from another country to move in with my Ex. She cannot work in the States legally so I showed her how I work out of the house. I showed her the ropes so she could do this on her own. The three of us would even go out and have a beer or two together. I would cut down on child support when I knew they were low on money. Then they got married in September, 2003 and all hell has broken loose. By the end of September he called me to say that, "Cindy has decided that we should not be spending holidays together." I was completely floored. Ex and I got into a fight the week of Halloween. I called Cindy and told her they were still welcome to go with us on Halloween, but my Ex needed to call me so we could sort the fight out. He never called. Cindy called and asked if I would bring the kids over so they could see them dressed up. I did that, but stayed in the car while they took pictures. Fast forward to 2 weeks ago. I drop our youngest off at their house. My ex is literally in tears because they cannot afford Christmas this year and don’t have enough money for the bills this month. I offer a few side jobs that would pay good money and they take me up on that. I also offered to give them 30 presents for each child that I have had tucked away for Christmas (about $1,000.00 in toys total that I gave them) They are very thankful that I’m helping them. I know the INS attorney is costing them a fortune and he is the only one really working and bringing money in. I cut down on my child support by 50% for December so they can have some money for gifts and give them 100.00 cash for her dad’s birthday. Cindy’s parents will be in town in a few days. It’s getting close to Thanksgiving and my kids are crying because they aren’t spending it with me. I called my Ex and asked if there is a way we can spend it together since everything was going fine. They already made plans to go out of town with the kids that day and Cindy won’t change the plans… and she still feels we should not share the holidays. I am livid. I called my ex at work, asked him not to tell her what I’m sayiing on the phone to him, I just wanted to vent to him about how used I feel. We hung up and he called her and told her everything I said. I think he should have told me before I vented that he couldn’t keep secrets from her and he was going to tell her everything. When they had fights he would call me to get a woman’s perspective and asked me not to tell her we talked, so this wasn’t unusual. I dont know what to do. I did give them the presents today ONLY for the sake of the kids. My ex has not called me since I vented to him on the phone while he was at work. Cindy told me to call him and set up the visitation days that week. I called, she answered the phone, I asked to talk to my ex and she said, there’s no need to talk to him, these are the days. At this point I only want email contact with them. I will let them see the kids for 4 hours on Christmas, but they will be un-invited to my parents house for Christmas night. My ex and I have always wanted a partner/spouse that would share the holidays. I don’t know what happened. Sorry this is so long.

Response:

 I called, she answered the phone, I asked to talk to  my ex and she said, there’s no need to talk to him,  these are the days. Well, Dee, as the second wife of a man with children from his first marriage and the mother of two children who would probably have to go through this sort of thing if we divorced, I *think* I can kinda see some of both (three??) sides of this. Your side: This is my ex. We have children together. We need to work together to raise these kids. Things were going great when it was just me and him, now it’s all *her* fault that it’s not going great. His side: She is my ex. We have children together We need to work together to raise these kids. But, now I’m married to her. I have to work with her or I’ll be di- vorced again. The way my ex and I worked things out before I married were okay, but now there’s another person I have to consider and it’s durned difficult to keep both of them happy. It’s hard as hell keeping *two* women happy. Her side: She is his ex. I am his wife. I don’t want to mess up things that were working great before, but, durnit, how am *I* supposed to feel like THE wife when he’s still doing everything the way she wants it done? I don’t want it done that way. Now, I’m not saying that this is *exactly* how you all are thinking, but it’s a possibility. When my husband and I married, I know that a lot of the changes that happened when it came to how he dealt with his ex and his older kids was perceived as being ‘my fault’. In a way they were, in a way there weren’t. Things that were acceptable for my husband when he was single were suddenly not acceptable or not doable when he was married and then had two other kids on top of it all. There were plenty of times when I was like ‘What? Why do you do THAT?’ when it came to his ex and what it came down to was that it wasn’t worth the hassle for him when it was just him. When another person was being inconvenienced (and when the other person was someone he had married and wanted to remain married to), he was more apt to face the hassle with his ex than when it was just him. I’m not so sure I like the ‘you don’t need to speak with him’ part, although there might be a reason for it (as far as Cindy is concerned.) You have kids with *him*, not her, and, as such, IMO, you should be speaking with him. At the same time, if she’s of the opinion that he’ll ‘give away the farm’, so to speak, if he’s the one doing the talking, that could be why she’s saying this. But….that’s a problem between *them* and you really don’t have to accept the ‘You can’t speak with him’ edict if you don’t want to. How to get to speak to him, I don’t really know, except for going the legal route.  At this point I only want email contact with them. Well, now you’re doing to *them* what you’re pissed off at them for doing. Making changes to the way things ‘were’ without talking to them about it. It’s kinda difficult to ‘take the high road’ when you’re down there on the low road right alongside them. Not that I don’t think that e-mail contact only is a horrible way to run things. In some cases, it would be preferred, AFAIC. It’s a way to make sure that everyone at least has the opportunity to see what is being pro- posed, it gives people time to think about their response instead of the first thing that pops in their head being presented, and it leaves a paper trail so that people can go back and refresh their memory as to what has been discussed. But I don’t think that a pronouncement of ‘I only want to deal with you through e-mail from now on’ is going to fly. You have *two* people who will have to agree with it now, not just one.  I will let them see the kids for 4 hours on Christmas, Is that wise? Does that go against the formal agreement that you have with your ex regarding time with the kids? If it does and you just haven’t enforced it up until now, you might want to consider the ramifications of enforcing it now. What little tidbits in the agreement can be used against you if he so chose? Don’t use time with the chil- dren as an attempt to punish your ex for not behaving in the manner you want him to.  but they will be un-invited to my parents house for  Christmas night. That’s perfectly fine, IMO, unless you’re uninviting them to ‘punish’ them for not going along with your wishes. I, personally, would not be comfortable spending time at the holidays with either my ex or my husband’s ex and actually quite envy people who are able to do it without a lot of tension.  My ex and I have always wanted a partner/spouse that would  share the holidays. I don’t know what happened. Well, what happened is that your ex now has a partner that *doesn’t* share that. The reality you have to deal with now is that the dynamics of your relationship with your ex has changed due to the addition of another person in his life. As important as it might be to keep his relationship with you, his ex, on an even keel because of having children together, it is probably *more* important for him to keep his relationship with his wife on an even keel. And, maybe I’m biased, but I gotta agree with that (as long as it’s not affecting his relationship with the kids and, it seems to me, that you’re doing more to alter that relationship than they are.) Tracey

Response:

"Cindy has decided that we should not be spending holidays together."

FWIW, as I have no children, it seems obvious your alturism has been repaid with contempt. I’d say get out the claymores. And clean the Mauser. Sorry for your trouble. Sid

Response:

"Cindy has decided that we should not be spending holidays together." FWIW, as I have no children, it seems obvious your alturism has been repaid with contempt. I’d say get out the claymores. And clean the Mauser. Sorry for your trouble. Sid

altruism with expectations attached is not altruism bogey

Response:

Hi and thanks for reading. This is my first posting to this board. My ex and I have been very good friends until he remarried. We were together 18 years, have three little ones under 8. We have always agreed the kids need to come first. We filed the divorce ourselves, no problems, no arguments. <remainder snipped for brevity

If you were such good friends, and had been married for 18 years, why did you get divorced?  Seems like, with all those things going for you, you two could’ve worked out whatever the problems were, if you wanted to. For one thing, stop the helping and gift giving now.  Also, be there for your kids and try to not show them that it bothers you as much as possible.  And, as someone else, said, remember that you got divorced. This is what divorce is, a separation of lives.  I agree that it is best for the kids if the two parents can get along, but you can’t make it happen if the other person(s) are not willing to.

Response:

God is Good

Question:

In order to understand good and bad I guess you would have to believe in the existence of good and evil. If you believe in good and evil then the possibility of personification of them exists. I am familiar with Thomas Paine and also understand some have come forward and refute him. I am not an expert in theology, but there have been intelligent men such as Newton, Pascal, Einstein, who’s success in their fields of physics were not because they were trying to prove the non-existence of God but rather that they were seeking to understand how God did what He did. Creation is just too complicated to be an accident. The mathematical odds of a one cell "living" organism popping into existence from a primordial soup is 1to the 13th power. Essentially a mathematical impossibility. Then if you consider the number of different species and their complexities the size of the number becomes inexpressible and virtually impossible within even the accepted age of the earth at 5 billion years. With all of the intellect and level of technology that man has achieved, we still don’t know what gravity is or how it works. Never mind even how, why, or what consciousness is. To read a book, or debate individuals who adamantly refuse to believe that there is a greater "lifeform" that they don’t fully understand is essentially banging my head against a wall and that is why I won’t do it. I’m done. Bob

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – It says that the evidence of God can be seen through the things He has made Does that include HIV? Tapeworms? Cancer? No reference to those in the Bible. But read "The Age of Reason" written by Thomas Paine from memory in a French prison  in the 1700’s as a refutation of scripture and get back to me. Sid

Response:

You are one to talk, Robert. You who divorced his wife for selfished reasons. And you call yourself a christian. you talk about the bible, about all these things. yet you are a hypocrite, a phoney christian. you and my mom should hook up. you deserve each other. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – You have "felt" the Holy Spirit that you accepted. Just remember when you humble yourself like Jesus did, evil will attack you like it did Him. I did as you did, tried to be humble, non-aggressive in my divorce. My wife took advantage of it and used it against me. Hi all I have been lurking for a very long time. Heres my story: First I must say that I  am a Christian man that that is coming to terms with divorce.(whew.. difficult)   My wife left me in march of this year.  She espouses the same beliefs as me but there has been alot of pain and discord in our relationship.  She  has two children from another man and I have raised them since they were very little(4yrs old and 9 months… both girls).  We have 2 together. I guess our biggest problem has been blending the families effectively.  She felt very protective of her children and I felt (truly) that the whole family was mine… i.e. there was no difference between the oldest and youngest  as far as our relationship together was.  but as the middle  child came into her teenage years within the last two years.. rebellion has  really settled in.  I have been adamant about administring the authority and the house.. and I realize(hindsight) that i was perhaps overbearing.  I love  all of my children.     Within the last year and  a half  I have accepted Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior of my life( my wife has been one a few years longer).. Ironic that at this time(when you are supposed to be at the height of your joy) things start to go south. (the enemy really knows when to strike)  I  really emphasized christianity in the home.  and it really wasnt fair to dictate(suddenly) to the kids what music and what movies, etc they could/couldn’t watch when (before) i was fairly liberal.  This has caused chaos tension and unease in the home. We have been in and out of counseling.   been seperated and back  together.. and finally she moved out(4 months ago) and said thats it… she filed for divorce last week.        I have to admit that it was devastating.  She  told me she wanted full custody of the kids and wanted full blown support. I have never wanted to be a "weekend" dad.  My children have never been longer than  a couple of days away from me and I wanted more than anything to keep my children. in the beginning of our seperation I TOLD her she would never keep the kids.. I would fight tooth and nail.. I was very bitter and angry.  we  were both ugly.     Recently… within the last month or so,   I realize I was sooooo  wrong … I stopped fighting and arguing… I put all of my trust before the  lord and started living a life of self-less-ness.  I realize that only when you pour out love that do you find peace.  This is the lesson that Jesus gave  us so long ago. children and financial support. After all four of us conferred(her, I , 2 lawyers)  she GAVE me equal time with the kids..   Because she lives so close to me we agreed that I keep  the children from Sunday 6:00pm until the following sunday 6 pm… she picks them up and keeps them until the following sund,,, etc.. etc.        we  have Any way I am so overjoyed that I have my children… there are a few other items we need to work out.. but I give full glory to the Lord for this. Only when I laid it at his feet and lived the life that he wanted me to  live did he give me the desires of my heart. Anyway i wanted to share the hope and joy and goodness that can come out  of the wreckage and pain of divorce…. men and women alike… I believe that if you put aside the hatred and the bitterness and live a righteous life,  God will come into your life and direct you and guide you and bless you.. Im sure I will get flamed from many naysayers and negative people and that   I was at one time in my life an ATHEIST..       God bless you all .

Response:

Tommy,  I am sorry that your family broke up and that your wife left. I am not married, nor will i ever be. I cannot stand the idea of marriage in this society, in america. I am here because mu parents divorced. My mom was the unfaithful one. she left. she wanted the divorce. my dad did not want it. but he didnt really fight that hard. he let so much shit happen to him. to me. to my brother. and he got really messed up, emotionally. to say that he was unstable is an understatment. but the whole thing was unstable and totally sickening. he made things ALOT worse for my brother and for me.  but my dad is not what i wanted to talk about here. why would God allow such a bad fucking thing to happen, such as this? adultery and incredibly hurtful and awkward situations. perhaps even evil. actually it was all evil. since the very first night that I found out my mom was commiting adultery and seeing other people and had been for years behind the rest of our backs.  how the fuck could God allow that. I am pretty certain he didnt want that. He is said to HATE divorce. well I HATE it also. I hate it so fucking bad, I hate all of this, not unlike the Jews hated the concentraition camps, the nazis and hitler. its ALL bad. its beyond sickening and hurtful. its worse than the worst nightmare. its worse than all your nightmares combined. My dad and bother started going to this church in the community we had to move to, after my mom forced the sale of our nice house.  I went a few times, but then got very resentful and realized that I was there only because of what happened. the divorce, the adultery, etc.  many people would NOT or could not make that connection. but its really very simple for me.  I resent all the friends my brother has made. not because i am jealous. I can and do make plenty of friends. never had a problem with that. but i resent my dads friends and my brother friends and the church they go to, because they are in their lives as a DIRECT result of losing the house, the divorce, the unfaithfulness, betrayal, deciet, etc and and I cannot stand it. its too much for me to deal with or cope with. I will never feel differently about that. I completely resent the things my brother is into, in church. its one of those down to earth churches and he is learning alot. some of it is isnt so terrible, (he is learning that the world is a fucked up place) but he gets too preachy with it.  he doesnt like alot of the things we used to like as brothers (movies, music, videogames, other things)   I truly resent the church people he is ALWAYS hanging around with. I dont dislike them personally, but the fact that he even knows them. if the divorce never happened, he would not know these people, and we’d be a proper and decent family.  but thats not possible, because this is reality. even though it fucking sucks. most of all, I am wonder how God could allow this to happen.  For some reason though, I never get mad or upset at God, even though I KNOW many people hate God for what has happened in their lives. I dont know WHY I dont even get slightly upset at God.  All of my hate and upsetness and resentment gets directed on the handful of people who caused this: my parents, my aunt, and a few "friends" of my moms, who along with my aunt, planned and carried out the destruction of my family. I will NEVER forgive them for this. I am only just beginning to learn how to hate them.  I wish I could really hurt them, but its against my nature. my nature is to be good to others. so, I guess Im really screwed. I cant get back at the ones who have done such catastrophic mega-damage to my family. If they had physically murdered my family, I would be less hateful of them. because my family would still have loved each other. but what happened was, they turned my family into the enemy, and got my mom into doing the things herself, that would rip my family to pieces. and do others things constantly that are anti-family, that are not wholesome. she thinks and acts completely differently now. and so does my dad. and it is BEYOND fucked up. As I was saying , I cant get back at anyone. because its against my nature, plus I am a natural chicken-shit. but if they EVER needed help desperately, and I could do something help them? hahahahaha, God help them! I wouldnt. sorry to sound so hateful and bitter, but this is how i feel. actually, it’s not even beginning to describe it. God has the power to undo everything that was done. he could take things back in time and make it so the divorce (your’s and my parents) never happened. he has MORE than enough power and capability to do that. I dont. well duh! obviously.  I dont even feel like bothering to pray that he would do that, even though he CAN, because I know he wont. Why can I so EASILY HATE my parents and the handful of other people who caused this, with all of my heart. I can hate them without even trying. yet, I find it impossible to hate God, or even be a tiny bit angry with him? just a few thoughts. sorry for your divorce. truly. I know it must hurt terribly. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi all I have been lurking for a very long time. Heres my story: First I must say that I  am a Christian man that that is coming to terms with divorce.(whew.. difficult)   My wife left me in march of this year.  She espouses the same beliefs as me but there has been alot of pain and discord in our relationship.  She has two children from another man and I have raised them since they were very little(4yrs old and 9 months… both girls).  We have 2 together. I guess our biggest problem has been blending the families effectively.  She felt very protective of her children and I felt (truly) that the whole family was mine… i.e. there was no difference between the oldest and youngest  as far as our relationship together was.  but as the middle child came into her teenage years within the last two years.. rebellion has really settled in.  I have been adamant about administring the authority and the house.. and I realize(hindsight) that i was perhaps overbearing.  I love all of my children.     Within the last year and  a half  I have accepted Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior of my life( my wife has been one a few years longer).. Ironic that at this time(when you are supposed to be at the height of your joy) things start to go south. (the enemy really knows when to strike)  I really emphasized christianity in the home.  and it really wasnt fair to dictate(suddenly) to the kids what music and what movies, etc they could/couldn’t watch when (before) i was fairly liberal.  This has caused chaos tension and unease in the home. We have been in and out of counseling.   been seperated and back together.. and finally she moved out(4 months ago) and said thats it… she filed for divorce last week.        I have to admit that it was devastating.  She told me she wanted full custody of the kids and wanted full blown support. I have never wanted to be a "weekend" dad.  My children have never been longer than  a couple of days away from me and I wanted more than anything to keep my children. in the beginning of our seperation I TOLD her she would never keep the kids.. I would fight tooth and nail.. I was very bitter and angry.  we were both ugly.     Recently… within the last month or so,   I realize I was sooooo wrong … I stopped fighting and arguing… I put all of my trust before the lord and started living a life of self-less-ness.  I realize that only when you pour out love that do you find peace.  This is the lesson that Jesus gave us so long ago. children and financial support. After all four of us conferred(her, I , 2 lawyers)  she GAVE me equal time with the kids..   Because she lives so close to me we agreed that I keep the children from Sunday 6:00pm until the following sunday 6 pm… she picks them up and keeps them until the following sund,,, etc.. etc.        we have Any way I am so overjoyed that I have my children… there are a few other items we need to work out.. but I give full glory to the Lord for this. Only when I laid it at his feet and lived the life that he wanted me to live did he give me the desires of my heart. Anyway i wanted to share the hope and joy and goodness that can come out of the wreckage and pain of divorce…. men and women alike… I believe that if you put aside the hatred and the bitterness and live a righteous life,  God will come into your life and direct you and guide you and bless you.. Im sure I will get flamed from many naysayers and negative people and that   I was at one time in my life an ATHEIST..       God bless you all .

Response:

virtually impossible within even the accepted age of the earth at 5 billion years.

So, Bob. How old do you think the earth is? –JMB

Response:

Tommy, thanks for writing this. I will reply more later. just wanted to say thanks. I think this helps a little. And there is no reason for you to get ridiculed by anyone. you didn’t want any of what happened. you’re beliefs are good ones. I dont think the immoral people around here even have the stomache to flame you. if they do, they’ll have to flame me too.  again, I’ll reply more later. what you said gives me a little peace. even though this life is all about destruction.  I know what you mean about feeling funny about it, when you are telling me to endure, yet you’re going through some of it too. Ive been there!  I mean, Ive done the same. again… I’ll reply more later. sending good thoughts in your direction. wait, that sounds kinda new-agey. God Bless you sir. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – ryanguy,  I am so sorry that you are hurt and devestated by the  divorce of your parents.  I feel for you, believe me.  I am also suffering but I do have a strong grasp on my beliefs.  Romans, I believe, tells us that" I consider our present sufferings are not even worth comparing to the glory that will be revealed in us through christ.  " I think thats it but Im doing it from memory.  anyway, that was such an inspiration to me because I know that the terrible pain and loss "is not even worth comparing"  to the joy and hapiness that awaits.  That is a promise from God.  And to me I draw strength from knowing that. One thing I have learned from my marriage and through the bible is that everything…. EVERYTHING of this earth is temporary.  (even if you are married 50 years.. its still temporary).  I know that your pain is immense. and I feel some of it myself.. but I hope you can find someone to trust in to talk to… believe me.. it will pass : the pain.  I know its hard to cope with and deal with while you are in it but I am telling you that it will pass.. BUT until it does.. you need someone.. (counselor, teacher, friend ) that can empathize with you and  pull you through this. Its funny that Im telling you to endure and im dealing with it myself, but hey  I have already had one victory through christ.. I EXPECT more in the future.   God’s hope is eternal.  I cannot address your other subject of hypocrisy because I donot know the other people.. but I will tell you condem NOONE becuase i have issues that I myself cope with That is the beauty of the gift of Jesus Christ .  God knows we are all unworthy.. But he loves us soooooo much so he gives us a chance to have anyway.. take heart and know that there are people out there who love you. I love you man.. and I dont even know you. Once again I expect to get ridiculed( i love the tooth fairy post).  I have heard it all and I was once dishing it all in when I was an Atheist.  I dont want to get into a debate on here about why do i believe in god/christ/ etc and give me reasons why im a fool, etc..

Response:

that is just the way it is, and it is precisely that way for your benefit. I promised myself I wouldn’t bite, but, precisely how instructive, edifying and enlightening are the explosion of Krakatoa,

"..don’t live on volcanos, or right on the beach"? the Bataan Death March,

"do not blindly follow human leaders"? (that could, I suppose, be applied to both Hirohito, and the American commanders who decided those men weren’t worth reinforcing) the Bubonic plague

"don’t live in such filth that you’re overrun with rats"? and Abba?

Uhhhh,….I can’t help you here. CJ da Yooper

Response:

I could clearly hear the voice of Cartman ( the fat boy ).

I’M NOT FAT, I’M BIG BONED GODDAMMIT!!!!

Response:

that is just the way it is, and it is precisely that way for your benefit.

I promised myself I wouldn’t bite, but, precisely how instructive, edifying and enlightening are the explosion of Krakatoa, the Bataan Death March, the Bubonic plague and Abba? Sid

Response:

Since the Bible is the source of information about God, it has to be referenced. It says that the evidence of God can be seen through the things He has made (paraphrased). Faith results in action on our part i.e. trust.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Once again I expect to get ridiculed May I ask one question: Why does God require Faith? Shouldn’t He be self-evident enough to preclude that? Thanks, and sorry to highjack the thread. Sid PS: Please don’t tell me He is embodied in a world whose sole aim is to consume itself: "What are we to make of a creation in which the routine activity is for organisms to be tearing others apart, with teeth of all types-biting, grinding flesh, plant stalks, bones between molars, pushing the pulp greedily down the gullet with delight, incorporating it’s essence into one’s own organization and then excreting with foul stench and gasses the residue?" Ernst Becker I await your answer, Sid

Response:

It says that the evidence of God can be seen through the things He has made

Does that include HIV? Tapeworms? Cancer? No reference to those in the Bible. But read "The Age of Reason" written by Thomas Paine from memory in a French prison  in the 1700’s as a refutation of scripture and get back to me. Sid

Response:

It says that the evidence of God can be seen through the things He has made Does that include HIV? Tapeworms? Cancer? No reference to those in the Bible. But read "The Age of Reason" written by Thomas Paine from memory in a French prison  in the 1700’s as a refutation of scripture and get back to me. Sid

I think this is where you get the line, "I don’t debate scripture with non-believers."

Response:

"I don’t debate scripture with non-believers."

What else is there to commend the Faith? The conflicting testamony of witnesses? Live in tension with the absurd and preserve your dignity. Sid (out)

Response:

Once again I expect to get ridiculed May I ask one question: Why does God require Faith? Shouldn’t He be self-evident enough to preclude that?

JC said, iirc, having seen, faith is optional. Please don’t tell me He is embodied in a world whose sole aim is to consume itself: "What are we to make of a creation in which the routine activity is for organisms to be tearing others apart, with teeth of all types-biting, grinding flesh, plant stalks, bones between molars, pushing the pulp greedily down the gullet with delight, incorporating it’s essence into one’s own organization and then excreting with foul stench and gasses the residue?" Ernst Becker

we are to commiserate with the creator who suffers along with its creation, and to stop criticising like whiny little brats who want everything our way. that is just the way it is, and it is precisely that way for your benefit. "anyone who denies that life is suffering is trying to sell you something."

Response:

   ryanguy,  I am so sorry that you are hurt and devestated by the  divorce of your parents.  I feel for you, believe me.  I am also suffering but I do have a strong grasp on my beliefs.  Romans, I believe, tells us that" I consider our present sufferings are not even worth comparing to the glory that will be revealed in us through christ.  " I think thats it but Im doing it from memory.  anyway, that was such an inspiration to me because I know that the terrible pain and loss "is not even worth comparing"  to the joy and hapiness that awaits.  That is a promise from God.  And to me I draw strength from knowing that. One thing I have learned from my marriage and through the bible is that everything…. EVERYTHING of this earth is temporary.  (even if you are married 50 years.. its still temporary).  I know that your pain is immense. and I feel some of it myself.. but I hope you can find someone to trust in to talk to… believe me.. it will pass : the pain.  I know its hard to cope with and deal with while you are in it but I am telling you that it will pass.. BUT until it does.. you need someone.. (counselor, teacher, friend ) that can empathize with you and  pull you through this. Its funny that Im telling you to endure and im dealing with it myself, but hey  I have already had one victory through christ.. I EXPECT more in the future.   God’s hope is eternal.  I cannot address your other subject of hypocrisy because I donot know the other people.. but I will tell you condem NOONE becuase i have issues that I myself cope with That is the beauty of the gift of Jesus Christ .  God knows we are all unworthy.. But he loves us soooooo much so he gives us a chance to have anyway.. take heart and know that there are people out there who love you. I love you man.. and I dont even know you. Once again I expect to get ridiculed( i love the tooth fairy post).  I have heard it all and I was once dishing it all in when I was an Atheist.  I dont want to get into a debate on here about why do i believe in god/christ/ etc and give me reasons why im a fool, etc..

Response:

Once again I expect to get ridiculed

May I ask one question: Why does God require Faith? Shouldn’t He be self-evident enough to preclude that? Thanks, and sorry to highjack the thread. Sid PS: Please don’t tell me He is embodied in a world whose sole aim is to consume itself: "What are we to make of a creation in which the routine activity is for organisms to be tearing others apart, with teeth of all types-biting, grinding flesh, plant stalks, bones between molars, pushing the pulp greedily down the gullet with delight, incorporating it’s essence into one’s own organization and then excreting with foul stench and gasses the residue?" Ernst Becker I await your answer, Sid

Response:

Within the last year and  a half  I have accepted Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior of my life( my wife has been one a few years longer)..

That such a development hasn’t produced concomitant harmony is a quandary. I am sorry for your trouble. At least you have a way of interpreting events in a larger view, and have a community looking out for your well-being. In the end, one must deny, incorporate, or live as best one can in tension with the Absurd. I choose the latter, but have respect for other solutions. Good luck, Sid

Response:

Within the last year and  a half  I have accepted Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior of my life( my wife has been one a few years longer).. That such a development hasn’t produced concomitant harmony is a quandary.

heh, harmony is the exception, JC said as much.   very confusing to the neophytes. american fundamentalism usually settles for hypocrisy as a substitute for harmony. I am sorry for your trouble. At least you have a way of interpreting events in a larger view, and have a community looking out for your well-being. In the end, one must deny, incorporate, or live as best one can in tension with the Absurd. I choose the latter, but have respect for other solutions.

well said, "One does not discover the absurd without being tempted to write a manual of happiness." -Camus

Response:

You have "felt" the Holy Spirit that you accepted. Just remember when you humble yourself like Jesus did, evil will attack you like it did Him. I did as you did, tried to be humble, non-aggressive in my divorce. My wife took advantage of it and used it against me.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi all I have been lurking for a very long time. Heres my story: First I must say that I  am a Christian man that that is coming to terms with divorce.(whew.. difficult)   My wife left me in march of this year.  She espouses the same beliefs as me but there has been alot of pain and discord in our relationship.  She has two children from another man and I have raised them since they were very little(4yrs old and 9 months… both girls).  We have 2 together. I guess our biggest problem has been blending the families effectively. She felt very protective of her children and I felt (truly) that the whole family was mine… i.e. there was no difference between the oldest and youngest  as far as our relationship together was.  but as the middle child came into her teenage years within the last two years.. rebellion has really settled in.  I have been adamant about administring the authority and the house.. and I realize(hindsight) that i was perhaps overbearing.  I love all of my children.     Within the last year and  a half  I have accepted Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior of my life( my wife has been one a few years longer).. Ironic that at this time(when you are supposed to be at the height of your joy) things start to go south. (the enemy really knows when to strike)  I really emphasized christianity in the home.  and it really wasnt fair to dictate(suddenly) to the kids what music and what movies, etc they could/couldn’t watch when (before) i was fairly liberal.  This has caused chaos tension and unease in the home. We have been in and out of counseling.   been seperated and back together.. and finally she moved out(4 months ago) and said thats it… she filed for divorce last week.        I have to admit that it was devastating.  She told me she wanted full custody of the kids and wanted full blown support. I have never wanted to be a "weekend" dad.  My children have never been longer than  a couple of days away from me and I wanted more than anything to keep my children. in the beginning of our seperation I TOLD her she would never keep the kids.. I would fight tooth and nail.. I was very bitter and angry.  we were both ugly.     Recently… within the last month or so,   I realize I was sooooo wrong … I stopped fighting and arguing… I put all of my trust before the lord and started living a life of self-less-ness.  I realize that only when you pour out love that do you find peace.  This is the lesson that Jesus gave us so long ago. children and financial support. After all four of us conferred(her, I , 2 lawyers)  she GAVE me equal time with the kids..   Because she lives so close to me we agreed that I keep the children from Sunday 6:00pm until the following sunday 6 pm… she picks them up and keeps them until the following sund,,, etc.. etc.        we have Any way I am so overjoyed that I have my children… there are a few other items we need to work out.. but I give full glory to the Lord for this. Only when I laid it at his feet and lived the life that he wanted me to live did he give me the desires of my heart. Anyway i wanted to share the hope and joy and goodness that can come out of the wreckage and pain of divorce…. men and women alike… I believe that if you put aside the hatred and the bitterness and live a righteous life,  God will come into your life and direct you and guide you and bless you.. Im sure I will get flamed from many naysayers and negative people and that   I was at one time in my life an ATHEIST..       God bless you all .

Response:

35 minutes ago i posted my question. The answer come from the computer of my oldest. He was watching South Park and on my way from the kitchen i could overhear that the characters of  South Park were talking about the tooth-fairy. South park part 402 I could clearly hear the voice of Cartman ( the fat boy ). So the tooth-fairy does exist. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi all I have been lurking for a very long time. Heres my story: First I must say that I  am a Christian man that that is coming to terms with divorce.(whew.. difficult)  My wife left me in march of this year.  She espouses the same beliefs as me but there has been alot of pain and discord in our relationship.   She has two children from another man and I have raised them since they were very little(4yrs old and 9 months… both girls).  We have 2 together. I guess our biggest problem has been blending the families effectively.  She felt very protective of her children and I felt (truly) that the whole family was mine… i.e. there was no difference between the oldest and youngest  as far as our relationship together was.  but as the middle child came into her teenage years within the last two years.. rebellion has really settled in.  I have been adamant about administring the authority and the house.. and I realize(hindsight) that i was perhaps overbearing.  I love all of my children.    Within the last year and  a half  I have accepted Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior of my life( my wife has been one a few years longer).. Ironic that at this time(when you are supposed to be at the height of your joy) things start to go south. (the enemy really knows when to strike)  I really emphasized christianity in the home.  and it really wasnt fair to dictate(suddenly) to the kids what music and what movies, etc they could/couldn’t watch when (before) i was fairly liberal.  This has caused chaos tension and unease in the home. We have been in and out of counseling.   been seperated and back together.. and finally she moved out(4 months ago) and said thats it… she filed for divorce last week.        I have to admit that it was devastating.   She told me she wanted full custody of the kids and wanted full blown support. I have never wanted to be a "weekend" dad.  My children have never been longer than  a couple of days away from me and I wanted more than anything to keep my children. in the beginning of our seperation I TOLD her she would never keep the kids.. I would fight tooth and nail.. I was very bitter and angry.   we were both ugly.    Recently… within the last month or so,   I realize I was sooooo wrong … I stopped fighting and arguing… I put all of my trust before the lord and started living a life of self-less-ness.  I realize that only when you pour out love that do you find peace.  This is the lesson that Jesus gave us so long ago. of the children and financial support. After all four of us conferred(her, I , 2 lawyers)  she GAVE me equal time with the kids..   Because she lives so close to me we agreed that I keep the children from Sunday 6:00pm until the following sunday 6 pm… she picks them up and keeps them until the following sund,,, etc.. etc.         we have Any way I am so overjoyed that I have my children… there are a few other items we need to work out.. but I give full glory to the Lord for this. Only when I laid it at his feet and lived the life that he wanted me to live did he give me the desires of my heart. Anyway i wanted to share the hope and joy and goodness that can come out of the wreckage and pain of divorce…. men and women alike… I believe that if you put aside the hatred and the bitterness and live a righteous life,  God will come into your life and direct you and guide you and bless you.. Im sure I will get flamed from many naysayers and negative people and that  I was at one time in my life an ATHEIST.. What about the tooth fairy?      God bless you all .

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi all I have been lurking for a very long time. Heres my story: First I must say that I  am a Christian man that that is coming to terms with divorce.(whew.. difficult)  My wife left me in march of this year.  She espouses the same beliefs as me but there has been alot of pain and discord in our relationship.  She has two children from another man and I have raised them since they were very little(4yrs old and 9 months… both girls).  We have 2 together. I guess our biggest problem has been blending the families effectively.  She felt very protective of her children and I felt (truly) that the whole family was mine… i.e. there was no difference between the oldest and youngest  as far as our relationship together was.  but as the middle child came into her teenage years within the last two years.. rebellion has really settled in.  I have been adamant about administring the authority and the house.. and I realize(hindsight) that i was perhaps overbearing.  I love all of my children.    Within the last year and  a half  I have accepted Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior of my life( my wife has been one a few years longer).. Ironic that at this time(when you are supposed to be at the height of your joy) things start to go south. (the enemy really knows when to strike)  I really emphasized christianity in the home.  and it really wasnt fair to dictate(suddenly) to the kids what music and what movies, etc they could/couldn’t watch when (before) i was fairly liberal.  This has caused chaos tension and unease in the home. We have been in and out of counseling.   been seperated and back together.. and finally she moved out(4 months ago) and said thats it… she filed for divorce last week.        I have to admit that it was devastating.  She told me she wanted full custody of the kids and wanted full blown support. I have never wanted to be a "weekend" dad.  My children have never been longer than  a couple of days away from me and I wanted more than anything to keep my children. in the beginning of our seperation I TOLD her she would never keep the kids.. I would fight tooth and nail.. I was very bitter and angry.  we were both ugly.    Recently… within the last month or so,   I realize I was sooooo wrong … I stopped fighting and arguing… I put all of my trust before the lord and started living a life of self-less-ness.  I realize that only when you pour out love that do you find peace.  This is the lesson that Jesus gave us so long ago. children and financial support. After all four of us conferred(her, I , 2 lawyers)  she GAVE me equal time with the kids..   Because she lives so close to me we agreed that I keep the children from Sunday 6:00pm until the following sunday 6 pm… she picks them up and keeps them until the following sund,,, etc.. etc.        we have Any way I am so overjoyed that I have my children… there are a few other items we need to work out.. but I give full glory to the Lord for this. Only when I laid it at his feet and lived the life that he wanted me to live did he give me the desires of my heart. Anyway i wanted to share the hope and joy and goodness that can come out of the wreckage and pain of divorce…. men and women alike… I believe that if you put aside the hatred and the bitterness and live a righteous life,  God will come into your life and direct you and guide you and bless you.. Im sure I will get flamed from many naysayers and negative people and that  I was at one time in my life an ATHEIST..

What about the tooth fairy? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –      God bless you all .

Response:

oh yeah, another thing, if you’re interested in seeing how I feel about divorce, adultery and breaking families apart, from the perspective of the other side (I mean from the kids/teens perspective)  check out my posts. Ive been around since Nov.  - just plug "Ryanguy" into Google Groups and read how I feel about divorce and what its like for a family to be wrecked. Although  I get pretty upset and extremely hateful, but that is to be expected… anyway, sorry again Tommy.

Response:

Something else I thought of, as I re-read your post. Now that you have gotten time with your children, why not work on repairing your relationship with your wife, and making your family whole, or prevent it from being torn apart. We both share the belief that God can do anything. I believe that your family has a chance even though its way too late for mine. My mom has a hard heart and my dad would never go back to her. neither would. but perhaps you and your wife can.  Since you are a christian, (and your wife is too) you obviously know how wrong divorce is, and that God doesnt like it, to say the least. perhaps it is possible. it doesnt seem like its too late, unlike with my family.  You also did not mention any affairs. she didnt have an affair right? if so, you probably have an even better chance. btw, my mom is christian too. a fake christian though, of course. she reads from the bible and talks about it all the time. but she is a total hypocrite and a phoney. otherwise she would have not done what she did. fucking other people, destroying her family. drinking. all of it. I suppose I can ask God to repair my family and make it whole again. but I know with absolute certainty that will never happen.  sigh. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi all I have been lurking for a very long time. Heres my story: First I must say that I  am a Christian man that that is coming to terms with divorce.(whew.. difficult)   My wife left me in march of this year.  She espouses the same beliefs as me but there has been alot of pain and discord in our relationship.  She has two children from another man and I have raised them since they were very little(4yrs old and 9 months… both girls).  We have 2 together. I guess our biggest problem has been blending the families effectively.  She felt very protective of her children and I felt (truly) that the whole family was mine… i.e. there was no difference between the oldest and youngest  as far as our relationship together was.  but as the middle child came into her teenage years within the last two years.. rebellion has really settled in.  I have been adamant about administring the authority and the house.. and I realize(hindsight) that i was perhaps overbearing.  I love all of my children.     Within the last year and  a half  I have accepted Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior of my life( my wife has been one a few years longer).. Ironic that at this time(when you are supposed to be at the height of your joy) things start to go south. (the enemy really knows when to strike)  I really emphasized christianity in the home.  and it really wasnt fair to dictate(suddenly) to the kids what music and what movies, etc they could/couldn’t watch when (before) i was fairly liberal.  This has caused chaos tension and unease in the home. We have been in and out of counseling.   been seperated and back together.. and finally she moved out(4 months ago) and said thats it… she filed for divorce last week.        I have to admit that it was devastating.  She told me she wanted full custody of the kids and wanted full blown support. I have never wanted to be a "weekend" dad.  My children have never been longer than  a couple of days away from me and I wanted more than anything to keep my children. in the beginning of our seperation I TOLD her she would never keep the kids.. I would fight tooth and nail.. I was very bitter and angry.  we were both ugly.     Recently… within the last month or so,   I realize I was sooooo wrong … I stopped fighting and arguing… I put all of my trust before the lord and started living a life of self-less-ness.  I realize that only when you pour out love that do you find peace.  This is the lesson that Jesus gave us so long ago. children and financial support. After all four of us conferred(her, I , 2 lawyers)  she GAVE me equal time with the kids..   Because she lives so close to me we agreed that I keep the children from Sunday 6:00pm until the following sunday 6 pm… she picks them up and keeps them until the following sund,,, etc.. etc.        we have Any way I am so overjoyed that I have my children… there are a few other items we need to work out.. but I give full glory to the Lord for this. Only when I laid it at his feet and lived the life that he wanted me to live did he give me the desires of my heart. Anyway i wanted to share the hope and joy and goodness that can come out of the wreckage and pain of divorce…. men and women alike… I believe that if you put aside the hatred and the bitterness and live a righteous life,  God will come into your life and direct you and guide you and bless you.. Im sure I will get flamed from many naysayers and negative people and that   I was at one time in my life an ATHEIST..       God bless you all .

Response:

Hi all I have been lurking for a very long time. Heres my story: First I must say that I  am a Christian man that that is coming to terms with divorce.(whew.. difficult)   My wife left me in march of this year.  She espouses the same beliefs as me but there has been alot of pain and discord in our relationship.  She has two children from another man and I have raised them since they were very little(4yrs old and 9 months… both girls).  We have 2 together. I guess our biggest problem has been blending the families effectively.  She felt very protective of her children and I felt (truly) that the whole family was mine… i.e. there was no difference between the oldest and youngest  as far as our relationship together was.  but as the middle child came into her teenage years within the last two years.. rebellion has really settled in.  I have been adamant about administring the authority and the house.. and I realize(hindsight) that i was perhaps overbearing.  I love all of my children.     Within the last year and  a half  I have accepted Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior of my life( my wife has been one a few years longer).. Ironic that at this time(when you are supposed to be at the height of your joy) things start to go south. (the enemy really knows when to strike)  I really emphasized christianity in the home.  and it really wasnt fair to dictate(suddenly) to the kids what music and what movies, etc they could/couldn’t watch when (before) i was fairly liberal.  This has caused chaos tension and unease in the home. We have been in and out of counseling.   been seperated and back together.. and finally she moved out(4 months ago) and said thats it… she filed for divorce last week.        I have to admit that it was devastating.  She told me she wanted full custody of the kids and wanted full blown support. I have never wanted to be a "weekend" dad.  My children have never been longer than  a couple of days away from me and I wanted more than anything to keep my children. in the beginning of our seperation I TOLD her she would never keep the kids.. I would fight tooth and nail.. I was very bitter and angry.  we were both ugly.     Recently… within the last month or so,   I realize I was sooooo wrong … I stopped fighting and arguing… I put all of my trust before the lord and started living a life of self-less-ness.  I realize that only when you pour out love that do you find peace.  This is the lesson that Jesus gave us so long ago. children and financial support. After all four of us conferred(her, I , 2 lawyers)  she GAVE me equal time with the kids..   Because she lives so close to me we agreed that I keep the children from Sunday 6:00pm until the following sunday 6 pm… she picks them up and keeps them until the following sund,,, etc.. etc.        we have Any way I am so overjoyed that I have my children… there are a few other items we need to work out.. but I give full glory to the Lord for this. Only when I laid it at his feet and lived the life that he wanted me to live did he give me the desires of my heart. Anyway i wanted to share the hope and joy and goodness that can come out of the wreckage and pain of divorce…. men and women alike… I believe that if you put aside the hatred and the bitterness and live a righteous life,  God will come into your life and direct you and guide you and bless you.. Im sure I will get flamed from many naysayers and negative people and that   I was at one time in my life an ATHEIST..       God bless you all .

Response:

As we slide down the razorblade’s edge of life, we all look for something grab on to.  So, if you think that Christianity is what works for you, hang on to it.  But as you’ve seen,  its mundane issues like raising kids, that puts theology to the test.  The trick IMHO, is not be so dogmatic that you fail to accept your kids for who they are or who they become.  [Rog'] – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi all I have been lurking for a very long time. Heres my story: First I must say that I  am a Christian man that that is coming to terms with divorce.(whew.. difficult)   My wife left me in march of this year.  She espouses the same beliefs as me but there has been alot of pain and discord in our relationship. She has two children from another man and I have raised them since they were very little(4yrs old and 9 months… both girls).  We have 2 together. I guess our biggest problem has been blending the families effectively. She felt very protective of her children and I felt (truly) that the whole family was mine… i.e. there was no difference between the oldest and youngest  as far as our relationship together was.  but as the middle child came into her teenage years within the last two years.. rebellion has really settled in.  I have been adamant about administring the authority and the house.. and I realize(hindsight) that i was perhaps overbearing.  I love all of my children.     Within the last year and  a half  I have accepted Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior of my life( my wife has been one a few years longer).. Ironic that at this time(when you are supposed to be at the height of your joy) things start to go south. (the enemy really knows when to strike)  I really emphasized christianity in the home.  and it really wasnt fair to dictate (suddenly) to the kids what music and what movies, etc they could/couldn’t watch when (before) i was fairly liberal.  This has caused chaos tension and unease in the home. We have been in and out of counseling.   been seperated and back together.. and finally she moved out(4 months ago) and said thats it… she filed for divorce last week.  I have to admit that it was devastating. She told me she wanted full custody of the kids and wanted full blown support. I have never wanted to be a "weekend" dad.  My children have never been longer than  a couple of days away from me and I wanted more than anything to keep my children. in the beginning of our seperation I TOLD her she would never keep the kids.. I would fight tooth and nail.. I was very bitter and angry.  we were both ugly.     Recently… within the last month or so,   I realize I was sooooo wrong … I stopped fighting and arguing… I put all of my trust before the lord and started living a life of self-less-ness.  I realize that only when you pour out love that do you find peace.  This is the lesson that Jesus gave us so long ago. the children and financial support. After all four of us conferred(her, I , 2 lawyers)  she GAVE me equal time with the kids..   Because she lives so close to me we agreed that I keep the children from Sunday 6:00pm until the following sunday 6 pm… she picks them up and keeps them until the following sund,,, etc.. etc.        we have Any way I am so overjoyed that I have my children… there are a few other items we need to work out.. but I give full glory to the Lord for this. Only when I laid it at his feet and lived the life that he wanted me to live did he give me the desires of my heart. Anyway i wanted to share the hope and joy and goodness that can come out of the wreckage and pain of divorce…. men and women alike… I believe that if you put aside the hatred and the bitterness and live a righteous life,  God will come into your life and direct you and guide you and bless you.. Im sure I will get flamed from many naysayers and negative people and   I was at one time in my life an ATHEIST..       God bless you all.

Response:

As we slide down the razorblade’s edge of life, we all look for something grab on to.  So, if you think that Christianity is what works for you, hang on to it.  But as you’ve seen,  its mundane issues like raising kids, that puts theology to the test.  The trick IMHO, is not be so dogmatic that you fail to accept your kids for who they are or who they become.  [Rog']

One thing Rog… There is no dogma in the bible.  Just a blurb… Storm

Response:

how to divorce? do i need a lawyer?

Question:

As Roger said, you need to ask about laws in your state. Do a search at  www.google.com, looking for "Mayland Divorce"  – you’ll see what you need. In my state a 2 month marriage is easy to dissolve as long as it is uncontested.  Keep lawyers out of it as much as possible.  If you must get an attorney (to make sure paperwork is correct)  make sure he/she is not adversarial (not out to screw your spouse).  Ask that question–it’s VERY important. Rob

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – i live in maryland and got married in maryland.  i feel very panic about my marriage,  i only got married for 2 months.  things have been changed….we don’t have kids or any property.  both of us agree to divorce.  do i need a lawyer?  what should i do?  thanks a lot…

Response:

Don’t know about Maryland, but in many states, the Clerk at the County Courthouse can help you with an uncontested divorce, or a least refer you to a place which can help.  It won’t hurt to ask. You can also find books or kits on the subject in libraries and bookstores.  [Roger] – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – i live in maryland and got married in maryland.  i feel very panic about my marriage,  i only got married for 2 months.  things have been changed….we don’t have kids or any property.  both of us agree to divorce.  do i need a lawyer?  what should i do?  thanks a lot…

Response:

i live in maryland and got married in maryland.  i feel very panic about my marriage,  i only got married for 2 months.  things have been changed….we don’t have kids or any property.  both of us agree to divorce.  do i need a lawyer?  what should i do?  thanks a lot…

Response:

ready to move on

Question:

Strontium said for all posterity… But, then again, you’re on webtv..now I’m wondering whether you are that troll from a few months ago.  No offense intended, it just happened.

Hmmm…. I missed the repeated first letter (W’s).   Could be. Casey "It is easier to get older than it is to get wiser."

Response:

Real quick advice…Learn to type.  Lawyers hate that.  IRC does not extend to real life.  PS, you will need to have many ‘written’ communications with people to make things ‘legal’.  But, then again, you’re on webtv..now I’m wondering whether you are that troll from a few months ago.  No offense intended, it just happened.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I need mmediate help on how to divorce cheaply i have been married for over six years  i need to divorce  he is destroying myn financial status as well as does not see his daughter  he lives withn dad and has another child by livin girlfriend and we r still legally married need immediate advice blessed be to you,in peace,trust,truth and love may the lord and lady shower you with abundance

Response:

And just WHY is it NOT going to be cheap?   Hmmm.   The answer just eludes me…   (Woops, just remembered….it was to cover that second Mercedes for the lawyer…) – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – With a child, its not going to be cheap, unless you can qualify for free (pro bono) legal services through a legal aid agency. In the meantime, segregate you finances.  Close out joint accounts and open your own.   [Rog'] I need mmediate help on how to divorce cheaply i have been married for over six years  i need to divorce  he is destroying myn financial status as well as does not see his daughter  he lives withn dad and has another child by livin girlfriend and we r still legally married need immediate advice blessed be to you, in peace, trust, truth and love may the lord and lady shower you with abundance

Response:

GET BETTER ODDS ON THE POWER BALL. blessed be to you,in peace,trust,truth and love may the lord and lady shower you with abundance – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I need mmediate help on how to divorce cheaply i have been married for over six years  i need to divorce  he is destroying myn financial status as well as does not see his daughter  he lives withn dad and has another child by livin girlfriend and we r still legally married need immediate advice blessed be to you,in peace,trust,truth and love may the lord and lady shower you with abundance

Response:

With a child, its not going to be cheap, unless you can qualify for free (pro bono) legal services through a legal aid agency. In the meantime, segregate you finances.  Close out joint accounts and open your own.   [Rog'] – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I need mmediate help on how to divorce cheaply i have been married for over six years  i need to divorce  he is destroying myn financial status as well as does not see his daughter  he lives withn dad and has another child by livin girlfriend and we r still legally married need immediate advice blessed be to you, in peace, trust, truth and love may the lord and lady shower you with abundance

Response:

I need mmediate help on how to divorce cheaply i have been married for over six years  i need to divorce  he is destroying myn financial status as well as does not see his daughter  he lives withn dad and has another child by livin girlfriend and we r still legally married need immediate advice blessed be to you,in peace,trust,truth and love may the lord and lady shower you with abundance

Response:

one good thing about Catholics

Question:

good Catholics that is, not the sicko priests…. good Catholics dislike divorce. as well as abortion (off-topic i know) of which both are wrong. (most of the time) i am not Catholic. although i find their religion interesting. sometimes i stop the tv on channel EWTN (the catholic channel) if they are talking about divorce. although it chokes me up when they start talking about how to avoid one, or about "satans power" to destroy familes. or how "divorce is very difficult on kids" cus i know my family is already fucked and it aint gonna be alright again.

Response:

I’d like to read that fairytale novel you’ve been reading. Don’t believe everything you hear on TV. You don’t want me to get started on "good Catholics," I was married to one – what a joke that was. People are all human. Never forget that fact.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – good Catholics that is, not the sicko priests…. good Catholics dislike divorce. as well as abortion (off-topic i know) of which both are wrong. (most of the time) i am not Catholic. although i find their religion interesting. sometimes i stop the tv on channel EWTN (the catholic channel) if they are talking about divorce. although it chokes me up when they start talking about how to avoid one, or about "satans power" to destroy familes. or how "divorce is very difficult on kids" cus i know my family is already fucked and it aint gonna be alright again.

Response:

LOL…..my husband had an affair with the flute player in our intensely (which is giving herself way too much credit) that I should consider my hiatus from the Praise Band that she unfortunately wound up becoming the leader of, that it wasn’t appropriate for us to be serving mass with this undercurrent.  But, she forgot one thing….Hubby is also in the praise band, and it’s interesting she didn’t find the fact that they’re fucking like bunnies as being inappropriate.  She quit our regular choir, so hubby and I are still in it.  I can deal with that, but I couldn’t be within a foot of her because I would probably take a swing at her. Tispe

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’d like to read that fairytale novel you’ve been reading. Don’t believe everything you hear on TV. You don’t want me to get started on "good Catholics," I was married to one – what a joke that was. People are all human. Never forget that fact. good Catholics that is, not the sicko priests…. good Catholics dislike divorce. as well as abortion (off-topic i know) of which both are wrong. (most of the time) i am not Catholic. although i find their religion interesting. sometimes i stop the tv on channel EWTN (the catholic channel) if they are talking about divorce. although it chokes me up when they start talking about how to avoid one, or about "satans power" to destroy familes. or how "divorce is very difficult on kids" cus i know my family is already fucked and it aint gonna be alright again.

Response:

Question of Funeral "protocol" with Divorce

Question:

Should?   For *whose* benefit?   The dead?   Nope.  They are dead.  It’s for the living, and that is up to the individual – and not the social clique. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – So, how appropriate, inappropriate would it be for me to go to one of his family members funerals?..  Is there some sort of "protocol" that is considered appropriate?.. Do you think I should ask my ex how he feels about it?.. and if so, would you ask now, when he’s not under duress? I would say that unless you are specifically asked *not* to attend, you should attend.  I wouldn’t ask that unfeeling clod anything. Most of the time, calling hours are published in the newspaper and anyone can attend without permission.

Response:

It’s funny, if my stbx ’s mother ever finally dies, I’m sure I would be welcome at the visitation as well as the funeral. Her own daughter who lives in Florida told hubby that if Mom dies in the winter she couldn’t possibly deal with coming up here for the funeral.  I think that’s pretty crass, though they certainly didn’t have a great relationship. But I’ll be there….hell, being in choir, I’ll probably sing at her funeral, and believe me hubby’s moving her in with us was one of the reasons for the marriage going down the tube. That being said, though,I think it’s inevitible that you would speak to your ex at a visitation, and if you feel awkward talking to your ex at the visitation, my suggestion would be to attend the funeral/memorial service, as there really isn’t much chance to chat in a church. Tispe

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Cal, My ex’s dad died just after our divorce was final; his mother died about 3 years ago.  In each case, I went to the visitation but avoided the formal ceremony.  My ex knew I’d be attending, which gave him the opportunity to be there or not, as he chose.  (He chose not, but honestly — he might have chosen so anyway; he has a strong aversion to anything related to death.)  This gave me a chance to spend some time talking to my ex brother- and sister-in-law, and then slip away. It’s kind of weird; my ex is not good about keeping in touch with his family, so I’ve continued to have a relationship with his brother’s family ever since our divorce.  In fact, my son and I will be seeing them when we’re in Florida next week visiting my dad. Barb The thread earlier this week has got me thinking about this quite seriously. My ex’s family and I were very close for most of our marriage, but as most of you know he’s married to MH now. His parents are getting up there, as are mine and I was wondering what would be proper when it comes time for the inevitable funerals for various family members. If something happened to one of his family members I would really want to be there.  I would also want to be there to support my children, though the argument could be made that he would be, but how well could he be there for them, when he would be grieving himself?.. So, how appropriate, inappropriate would it be for me to go to one of his family members funerals?..  Is there some sort of "protocol" that is considered appropriate?.. Do you think I should ask my ex how he feels about it?.. and if so, would you ask now, when he’s not under duress? The last time I spoke with my former MIL about two weeks ago, she invited both the kids and myself to their new house in Florida and she said that she still loves me like a daughter.  But communication between his family and me has been drastically cut from the days when his sister and I spoke nearly every day (long distance).  So how do others handle this situation? Thanks for the input. Cal~

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – The thread earlier this week has got me thinking about this quite seriously. My ex’s family and I were very close for most of our marriage, but as most of you know he’s married to MH now. His parents are getting up there, as are mine and I was wondering what would be proper when it comes time for the inevitable funerals for various family members. If something happened to one of his family members I would really want to be there.  I would also want to be there to support my children, though the argument could be made that he would be, but how well could he be there for them, when he would be grieving himself?.. So, how appropriate, inappropriate would it be for me to go to one of his family members funerals?..  Is there some sort of "protocol" that is considered appropriate?.. Do you think I should ask my ex how he feels about it?.. and if so, would you ask now, when he’s not under duress? The last time I spoke with my former MIL about two weeks ago, she invited both the kids and myself to their new house in Florida and she said that she still loves me like a daughter.  But communication between his family and me has been drastically cut from the days when his sister and I spoke nearly every day (long distance).  So how do others handle this situation? Thanks for the input. Cal~ Cal, it’s a matter of what’s in your heart and what you feel, not somebody else’s idea of protocol. In a sense, you’re asking if there’s a place for you in being public at mourning the loss of people who are very closely related to your kids, as well as, at minimum, having had an important and positive part in your life. Of course there is such a place. There is also the option for you of not attending if that is your choice. There’d be more  understanding of your doing that among the people who are there than if you were still married.

I agree – I think that if you want to go, you should go… And if it annoyed MH, that would just be a bonus S.B.

Response:

Thanks to all the replies to my question about going to former relatives funerals.  I talked with the kids to see what their feelings were in regards to this issue, as I felt that anything I did would impact them the most. They both felt that my not going would be wrong, because, as my daughter put it, you are their family because we are their family and it is important to us that you go. So that settles that, aside of the selfish reasons for my wanting to go, I will go because my children want me to as well. Thanks, Cal~ PS.  to those who have asked.. MH is the initials of my ex’s new wife.  My niece, who dearly loved my ex gave her the nickname Melonhead–(her given name is melanie).  Though it is never used anywhere else, here in the group, it is the nicest thing I can say about the woman. One thing that I never see addressed much is how much divorce can affect children other than those in the immediate family.  My niece adored her uncle stooge very much.  From the day she came home from the hospital, he was the only adult she would stop crying for, and their bond continued until the day he left me 8 years later.  The one time she had a chance to see and speak to him again, he got up and left the building before she got a chance even though he KNEW she was anxious to see him.  She wanted to give him a hug and tell him she loved him and that he was still her uncle stooge, no matter what.  He never gave her the chance and she was completely devastated.  The day he walked out of that gymnasium door was the day she stopped loving him.

Response:

Funerals are really for the living.  Some of us are having difficulty with that – and maybe that’s his reason. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Well this is "sort of" OT but it is the perfect opportunity for me to say what an ass my ex is!  The father of his best friend (for 30 yrs.) died last week and he couldn’t be bothered to attend the funeral Mass (or anything else).  I sat there in the church and couldn’t believe he wasn’t there. Today I asked my son if there was a reason for his dad not going.  He said that "Jim" was supposed to call with the funeral details and didn’t.  What total bullshit!  I told my ex the place and time myself when I spoke with him over the phone.  I just don’t get it… JA

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – The thread earlier this week has got me thinking about this quite seriously. My ex’s family and I were very close for most of our marriage, but as most of you know he’s married to MH now. His parents are getting up there, as are mine and I was wondering what would be proper when it comes time for the inevitable funerals for various family members. If something happened to one of his family members I would really want to be there.  I would also want to be there to support my children, though the argument could be made that he would be, but how well could he be there for them, when he would be grieving himself?.. So, how appropriate, inappropriate would it be for me to go to one of his family members funerals?..  Is there some sort of "protocol" that is considered appropriate?.. Do you think I should ask my ex how he feels about it?.. and if so, would you ask now, when he’s not under duress? The last time I spoke with my former MIL about two weeks ago, she invited both the kids and myself to their new house in Florida and she said that she still loves me like a daughter.  But communication between his family and me has been drastically cut from the days when his sister and I spoke nearly every day (long distance).  So how do others handle this situation? Thanks for the input. Cal~

Cal, it’s a matter of what’s in your heart and what you feel, not somebody else’s idea of protocol. In a sense, you’re asking if there’s a place for you in being public at mourning the loss of people who are very closely related to your kids, as well as, at minimum, having had an important and positive part in your life. Of course there is such a place. There is also the option for you of not attending if that is your choice. There’d be more  understanding of your doing that among the people who are there than if you were still married. By the way….what’s MH?.

Response:

So, how appropriate, inappropriate would it be for me to go to one of his family members funerals?..  Is there some sort of "protocol" that is considered appropriate?.. Do you think I should ask my ex how he feels about it?.. and if so, would you ask now, when he’s not under duress?

I would say that unless you are specifically asked *not* to attend, you should attend.  I wouldn’t ask that unfeeling clod anything.  Most of the time, calling hours are published in the newspaper and anyone can attend without permission.

Response:

Cal, I feel that if you want to attend any funeral of any person that you cared about, you do not need your exes permission or blessing to do so. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – The thread earlier this week has got me thinking about this quite seriously. My ex’s family and I were very close for most of our marriage, but as most of you know he’s married to MH now. His parents are getting up there, as are mine and I was wondering what would be proper when it comes time for the inevitable funerals for various family members. If something happened to one of his family members I would really want to be there.  I would also want to be there to support my children, though the argument could be made that he would be, but how well could he be there for them, when he would be grieving himself?.. So, how appropriate, inappropriate would it be for me to go to one of his family members funerals?..  Is there some sort of "protocol" that is considered appropriate?.. Do you think I should ask my ex how he feels about it?.. and if so, would you ask now, when he’s not under duress? The last time I spoke with my former MIL about two weeks ago, she invited both the kids and myself to their new house in Florida and she said that she still loves me like a daughter.  But communication between his family and me has been drastically cut from the days when his sister and I spoke nearly every day (long distance).  So how do others handle this situation?  Thanks for the input. Cal~

– To send email remove JUNK twice from return address.

Response:

To me, a funeral could be for all sorts of people the deceased has known throughout their lifetime.  Not just the ones actively involved in their life today. I think it’s appropriate for ex in-laws, new SO’s, and anyone in between to attend, both to support the grieving survivors AND to pay respects to someone who was an important part of their life at some time.   I think it’s a time to put all bad feelings aside, in respect for the deceased..   (then after the funeral, they can all go back into battle or whatever)

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Well this is "sort of" OT but it is the perfect opportunity for me to say what an ass my ex is!  The father of his best friend (for 30 yrs.) died last week and he couldn’t be bothered to attend the funeral Mass (or anything else).  I sat there in the church and couldn’t believe he wasn’t there. Today I asked my son if there was a reason for his dad not going.  He said that "Jim" was supposed to call with the funeral details and didn’t.  What total bullshit!  I told my ex the place and time myself when I spoke with him over the phone.  I just don’t get it… JA

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I’ve been divorced for 10 years now … I was close with my ex’s family and inasmuch as I wanted to cut all ties after the divorce, that simply is impossible; especially when you have children.  My ex’s grandmother died a few years ago – I went to the funeral, it was much appreciated by the family, including my ex; they didn’t hesitate to let me know how glad they were to see me.  I did respect her and I loved her as my own when we were married.  We also lost a nephew 2 years ago … I think my x-sister-in-law would have been extremely hurt had I not shown up for his funeral … my ex-husband didn’t show up … but she had my support and love and she always will. Just because we divorce, doesn’t mean we lose the family we were so a part of during the marriage.  We’re divorcing our spouses, not the family. There is no reason why you shouldn’t attend an x-family funeral if your love and respect is genuine and the person who passed was a big part of your life, even if only for awhile .

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – The thread earlier this week has got me thinking about this quite seriously. My ex’s family and I were very close for most of our marriage, but as most of you know he’s married to MH now. His parents are getting up there, as are mine and I was wondering what would be proper when it comes time for the inevitable funerals for various family members. If something happened to one of his family members I would really want to be there.  I would also want to be there to support my children, though the argument could be made that he would be, but how well could he be there for them, when he would be grieving himself?.. So, how appropriate, inappropriate would it be for me to go to one of his family members funerals?..  Is there some sort of "protocol" that is considered appropriate?.. Do you think I should ask my ex how he feels about it?.. and if so, would you ask now, when he’s not under duress? The last time I spoke with my former MIL about two weeks ago, she invited both the kids and myself to their new house in Florida and she said that she still loves me like a daughter.  But communication between his family and me has been drastically cut from the days when his sister and I spoke nearly every day (long distance).  So how do others handle this situation? Thanks for the input. Cal~

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What I did when my Ex-FIL died, and what my Ex did when my father died was attend the visiting but not the funeral. That way we could speak to each other and make it a little less obvious, not have people turning around gawking. It was just easier to move around the room, speak to those we wanted/needed to speak to and then leave. Denise

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – The thread earlier this week has got me thinking about this quite seriously. My ex’s family and I were very close for most of our marriage, but as most of you know he’s married to MH now. His parents are getting up there, as are mine and I was wondering what would be proper when it comes time for the inevitable funerals for various family members. If something happened to one of his family members I would really want to be there.  I would also want to be there to support my children, though the argument could be made that he would be, but how well could he be there for them, when he would be grieving himself?.. So, how appropriate, inappropriate would it be for me to go to one of his family members funerals?..  Is there some sort of "protocol" that is considered appropriate?.. Do you think I should ask my ex how he feels about it?.. and if so, would you ask now, when he’s not under duress? The last time I spoke with my former MIL about two weeks ago, she invited both the kids and myself to their new house in Florida and she said that she still loves me like a daughter.  But communication between his family and me has been drastically cut from the days when his sister and I spoke nearly every day (long distance).  So how do others handle this situation? Thanks for the input. Cal~

Response:

The thread earlier this week has got me thinking about this quite seriously. My ex’s family and I were very close for most of our marriage, but as most of you know he’s married to MH now. His parents are getting up there, as are mine and I was wondering what would be proper when it comes time for the inevitable funerals for various family members. If something happened to one of his family members I would really want to be there.  I would also want to be there to support my children, though the argument could be made that he would be, but how well could he be there for them, when he would be grieving himself?.. So, how appropriate, inappropriate would it be for me to go to one of his family members funerals?..  Is there some sort of "protocol" that is considered appropriate?.. Do you think I should ask my ex how he feels about it?.. and if so, would you ask now, when he’s not under duress? The last time I spoke with my former MIL about two weeks ago, she invited both the kids and myself to their new house in Florida and she said that she still loves me like a daughter.  But communication between his family and me has been drastically cut from the days when his sister and I spoke nearly every day (long distance).  So how do others handle this situation?  Thanks for the input. Cal~

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TO RYANGUY..

Question:

Maybe your mom and dad got divorced because you are an idiot?? Yeah, your mom and dad got divorced, that sucks, but there’s alot of other people here that have been through alot worse than that, that don’t feel the need to post 100 messages per day! And alot of your posts are plain stupid! How many times do you think you need to post that divorce sucks?? You are like the boy that cried wolf. You post so much crap that people are going to not even bother reading your posts anymore, like I already have. Then one day when you have something really important to say, other than how much divorce sucks, which we already know, no one is going to bother even reading it. Life’s a bitch, get over it and move on!! — "life is all the pain we endeavour.."

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Maybe your mom and dad got divorced because you are an idiot?? Yeah, your mom and dad got divorced, that sucks, but there’s alot of other people here that have been through alot worse than that, that don’t feel the need to post 100 messages per day! And alot of your posts are plain stupid! How many times do you think you need to post that divorce sucks?? You are like the boy that cried wolf. You post so much crap that people are going to not even bother reading your posts anymore, like I already have. Then one day when you have something really important to say, other than how much divorce sucks, which we already know, no one is going to bother even reading it. Life’s a bitch, get over it and move on!! — "life is all the pain we endeavour.."

 killfiled/ignored! for being a dumbf___! bye-bye.

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