Article from Date.com

Question:

On Sun, 10 Apr 2005 10:42:47 GMT, Dustbin – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -<dustbin_addr…@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote: >Hardpan wrote: >> On 9 Apr 2005 16:47:59 -0700, "Conrad" <eremit…@lycos.com> wrote: >>>Skinn…@hotmail.com wrote: >>>>On Sat, 09 Apr 2005 03:24:33 -0700, Hardpan <hard…@yahoo.com> >>>wrote: >>>>>On Sat, 09 Apr 2005 00:00:30 -0400, Skinn…@hotmail.com wrote: >>>>>>On 8 Apr 2005 20:49:42 -0700, "Largo" <coats2…@yahoo.com> wrote: >>>>>>>>Hummm…… My father gave me the same speech when I was 17… >>>and >>>>>>>had >>>>>>>>lagged behind most of my classmates. And here I am, 50…. >>>having >>>>>>>>spent a life building a character that I think is pretty strong. >>>Most >>>>>>>>of my aquaintences think so too. My employers seem to think so >>>>>>>too…. >>>>>>>>as do my co-workers. I was moved to another team… and got my >>>first >>>>>>>>sale on a totally new product line on my second day… an >>>unheard of >>>>>>>>occourance…. and all my old team members, who are in >>>competition >>>>>>>>with my new team…. came over and cheered for me. That was >>>something >>>>>>>>that has never been done in this office either. That’s >>>character. >>>>>>>>And yet I sit here alone… never having been chosen. So, tell >>>me…. >>>>>>>>how does that play into your theory? >>>>>>>What else in your life IS working? Surely at 50 you’ve >>>accomplished so >>>>>>>much in other areas of your life that this one problem–no luck >>>with >>>>>>>women-doesn’t extinguish the good stuff shining brightly on the >>>other >>>>>>>facets of your life? >>>>>>>Coats >>>>>>Sure I have accomplished a few things. Nothing to brag about >>>though. >>>>>>Good thing too cause who would I brag to? >>>>>>See, accomplishments are only good for the fleeting moment after >>>>>>achieved. After that if you have nobody to share those memories >>>>>>with…. Nobody to share the combined memories with… what good >>>are >>>>>>they? >>>>>Plenty, if you ask me. >>>>>Success breeds success, and everyone loves a winner. >>>>>And don’t forget that when Dr. Death comes a calling for those who >>>>>remember those "shared" memories, even that solace goes out the >>>>>window. >>>>>In the end, it all comes down to _you_, as an individual, not as a >>>>>couple or as part of a group, which are transitory, at best. >>>>True….. >>>>But the time inbetween birth and death can be long and tiresome and >>>>having a partner to share things with certainly would have made it a >>>>little more enjoyable. >>>>Or are you telling me that this aspect of life isn’t worth my >>>>lamenting? >>>And reproducing has also generally been looked upon as an important >>>part of life. Even if he doesn’t consciously want to sire bairnies, a >>>man’s desire for female company shows that the underlying instincts are >>>still at work. >> Thankfully, I have never ever wanted to have children myself and many >> Men only put up with the reproduction of rug-rats because their women >> have a biological clock ticking away like a time bomb, and she will >> cut off the sex/love in a heartbeat when she figures this fact out. >> Once women have the kids, many a Man has felt the gentle sound of a >> policemans’ rap upside his head, after the women decides that she no >> longer is in "love" with him, whatever that word means to a women, and >> gives him the boot out the very door, that he bought and paid for with >> years of hard work, with a call to 911 claiming that he was abusive or >> some other made-up nonsense. >> In my long experience on this world, the word "love" is used by >> most western women to justify and rationalize just about everything >> they do romantically and often things otherwise, as well. >> "Love" is just an excuse to whore around and nothing more for most >> women these days. >> More and more women had better get used to the idea that they will >> never, EVER be married to a sane, rational Man until their is some >> equality in the laws governing marriage, divorce and child support. >That is the very point. >Ever since shortly after my divorce I have been >saying that I would never have got married had >the fascists of State told the truth about the >legal system instead of filling our heads with >LIES about the right to be innocent until proven >guilty beyond a reasonable doubt. >Shortly after arriving at that conclusion I also >concluded that to marry would be grounds for >psychiatric incarceration of a man because it >amounts to self-harming. The only reason that >this is not true is because we are LIED to LIED >to and LIED to about the wonderfull rights that >we are supposed to have in the legal system. >Thus the man is misled into this action.

There are no rights, when it comes to the male partner, except those few bones the Judge might throw his way. Very doubtful these days, in most cases. These days marriage for most couples is a complete economic disaster for the Man, and a legal tool of extortion and blackmail by the woman.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Skinn…@hotmail.com wrote: > On Sat, 09 Apr 2005 03:24:33 -0700, Hardpan <hard…@yahoo.com> wrote: > > On Sat, 09 Apr 2005 00:00:30 -0400, Skinn…@hotmail.com wrote: > >>On 8 Apr 2005 20:49:42 -0700, "Largo" <coats2…@yahoo.com> wrote: > >>>> Hummm…… My father gave me the same speech when I was 17… > and > > > > had > >>>> lagged behind most of my classmates. And here I am, 50…. having > >>>> spent a life building a character that I think is pretty strong. > Most >>>> of my aquaintences think so too. My employers seem to think > so > > > > too…. > >>>> as do my co-workers. I was moved to another team… and got my > first >>>> sale on a totally new product line on my second day… an > unheard of >>>> occourance…. and all my old team members, who are > in competition >>>> with my new team…. came over and cheered for > me. That was something >>>> that has never been done in this office > either. That’s character. > >>>> And yet I sit here alone… never having been chosen. So, tell > me….  >>>> how does that play into your theory? > > > > What else in your life IS working? Surely at 50 you’ve > > > > accomplished so much in other areas of your life that this one > > > > problem–no luck with women-doesn’t extinguish the good stuff > > > > shining brightly on the other facets of your life? > > > > Coats > > > Sure I have accomplished a few things. Nothing to brag about > > > though.  Good thing too cause who would I brag to? > > > See, accomplishments are only good for the fleeting moment after > > > achieved. After that if you have nobody to share those memories > > > with…. Nobody to share the combined memories with… what good > > > are they? > > Plenty, if you ask me. > > Success breeds success, and everyone loves a winner. > > And don’t forget that when Dr. Death comes a calling for those who > > remember those "shared" memories, even that solace goes out the > > window. > > In the end, it all comes down to you, as an individual, not as a > > couple or as part of a group, which are transitory, at best. > True….. > But the time inbetween birth and death can be long and tiresome and

II found dat line verlly funny for sum reason. > having a partner to share things with certainly would have made it a > little more enjoyable.

hacing teh rong partner iz worse than beink alone. > Or are you telling me that this aspect of life isn’t worth my > lamenting?

– ———————————————————————— Ms Pnoopie Pnats Usnet Legend http://mspoopiepants.blogspot.com/ ———————————————————————— —————- ———————————————————————— —————

Response:

On 9 Apr 2005 14:20:54 -0700, "Largo" <coats2…@yahoo.com> wrote: – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->> >Plenty, if you ask me. >> >Success breeds success, and everyone loves a winner. >> >And don’t forget that when Dr. Death comes a calling for those who >> >remember those "shared" memories, even that solace goes out the >> >window. >> >In the end, it all comes down to _you_, as an individual, not as a >> >couple or as part of a group, which are transitory, at best. >Nice words from an unexpected source! >> True….. >> But the time inbetween birth and death can be long and tiresome and >> having a partner to share things with certainly would have made it a >> little more enjoyable. >> Or are you telling me that this aspect of life isn’t worth my >> lamenting? >If coming here and doing a bit of the lamenting thing is a help, lament >away my friend. As a guy who also was destined to have no chance with >the whole romantic thing, your bad feelings are understandable to me. I >wore the same wounds, and even though, luckily for me, they healed >years ago, I still remember how dreadful it felt.

Someone who get’s it. I would say it’s nice to know somebody else understands… but to be truthful I would rather NOBODY ever understand this! If youo get my drift. >However, occasional lamenting should be followed with action lest it >lead to more lamenting.

How true. I never did condone extended self pity. A little is OK. I mean, youo SHOULD be youor own best friend and who else to better console you than yourself right?  But too much becomes counter productive. >Don’t you hate that song and dance about how it will all work out for >you just like it did for most other people? Even I used to get a little >of that.

As I have said many many times in here. Their intentions are good but they just don;t understand. >I won’t give you that song and dance. For some people, it just won’t >happen. For you. For me. For whatever sad person is behind Darkfalz. >For Mark. For SS. For Mzsmanic. For others I can’t think of off the top >of my head. We are alone. We always will be. Nothing will ever change >that. Forever. But it’s what you do after you realize that that >matters. Fate slapped you when you were dealt the cards you were. Are >you going to let it slap you again? These words won’t mean anything >when your temporily depressed, like now apparently. Save them for >later.

Actually I am not miserable over this. I am sad from time to time. I imagine as spring springs and I get out more and see all the couples I will get those pangs… but for the most part I now accept my place in society and my lot in life. >Which brings me to my second point. Another thing I won’t give you is >any variation of that sickening old saw, "Don’t worry, be happy." You >feel bad right now. (If I’m reading your words correctly.) Nothing will >change that in the immediate instance. Go on feeling bad for a while. >Wallow in it a little. But here’s my method to forge ahead: when I get >down, I know–at least the objective, unemotional side of me >knows–that I will eventually feel better. And that future point is my >lighthouse. I plod towards it through the dark, feeling bad all the >way, but I have always, eventually, reached it. So have you, or you >wouldn’t be here at 50.

Ya, I do things that make me feel good. I enjoy being nice to people and being friendly. I like working with people too. I really am a people person and that suits me occutaion in Sales and Marketing well. I like photography and work hard at that trying to get better and better. I paint some… and draw/sketch. And I play on the computer like here. You find things to occupy your time with and you tolerate those who feel it’s their duty in life to figgure out why you aren’t married… and those who, though well meaning, try to make you realize that you are wrong and that happiness lies arounbd the next cornet. They don;t understand that happiness is what you make it. >Finally, another thing that’s always helped me, strangely, is letting >my objective side look at my problems with life and compare them with >the "long view." For thousands of years, people have succeeded and >failed, prospered or not, obtained intimacy or not. And they’re all >dead. Inside fifty years max, you’ll me dead. I’ll be dead. Those who >enter the river of time after us will bloom, wilt and die. What are >your intangible worries when placed alongside the concept of eternity?

Yep. Grains of sand and all  that. I am also a military historian (amatuer) and I look back at the wars of the ancient worls and try to imagine the people that fought and dies 2000 years ago…. and what their sacrifices meant to the world today. Not everybody can make earth changing effects with their lives…. funny too how some people will accept this fact… yet balk at the premise that not everybody finds a mate!! – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->Coats >P.S. This poem always resonated with me when I looked at the "long >view"–particularly the last third, which I’ve committed to memory and >separated from the rest. It has long been popular among Americans as a >soothing, objective and nonreligious look at death. >Thanatopsis >by William Cullen Bryant >To him who in the love of Nature holds >Communion with her visible forms, she speaks >A various language; for his gayer hours >She has a voice of gladness, and a smile >And eloquence of beauty, and she glides >Into his darker musings, with a mild >And gentle sympathy, that steals away >Their sharpness, ere he is aware. When thoughts >Of the last bitter hour come like a blight >Over thy spirit, and sad images >Of the stern agony, and shroud, and pall, >And breathless darkness, and the narrow house, >Make thee to shudder, and grow sick at heart;– >Go forth under the open sky, and list >To Nature’s teachings, while from all around– >Earth and her waters, and the depths of air,– >Comes a still voice–Yet a few days, and thee >The all-beholding sun shall see no more >In all his course; nor yet in the cold ground, >Where thy pale form was laid, with many tears, >Nor in the embrace of ocean shall exist >Thy image. Earth, that hourished thee, shall claim >Thy growth, to be resolv’d to earth again; >And, lost each human trace, surrend’ring up >Thine individual being, shalt thou go >To mix forever with the elements, >To be a brother to th’ insensible rock >And to the sluggish clod, which the rude swain >Turns with his share, and treads upon. The oak >Shall send his roots abroad, and pierce thy mould. >Yet not to thy eternal resting place >Shalt thou retire alone–nor couldst thou wish >Couch more magnificent. Thou shalt lie down >, With patriarchs of the infant world–with kings >The powerful of the earth–the wise, the good, >Fair forms, and hoary seers of ages past, >All in one mighty sepulchre.–The hills >Rock-ribb’d and ancient as the sun,–the vales >Stretching in pensive quietness between; >The vernal woods–rivers that move >In majesty, and the complaining brooks >That make the meadows green; and pour’d round all, >Old ocean’s grey and melancholy waste,– >Are but the solemn decorations all >Of the great tomb of man. The golden sun, >The planets, all the infinite host of heaven, >Are shining on the sad abodes of death, >Through the still lapse of ages. All that tread >The globe are but a handful to the tribes >That slumber in its bosom.–Take the wings >Of morning–and the Barcan desert pierce, >Or lost thyself in the continuous woods >Where rolls the Oregan, and hears no sound, >Save his own dashings–yet–the dead are there, >And millions in those solitudes, since first >The flight of years began, have laid them down >In their last sleep–the dead reign there alone. >So shalt thou rest–and what if thou shalt fall >Unnoticed by the living–and no friend >Take note of thy departure? All that breathe >Will share thy destiny. The gay will laugh, >When thou art gone, the solemn brood of care >Plod on, and each one as before will chase >His favourite phantom; yet all these shall leave >Their mirth and their employments, and shall come, >And make their bed with thee. As the long train >Of ages glide away, the sons of men, >The youth in life’s green spring, and he who goes >In the full strength of years, matron, and maid, >The bow’d with age, the infant in the smiles >And beauty of its innocent age cut off,– >Shall one by one be gathered to thy side, >By those, who in their turn shall follow them. >So live, that when thy summons comes to join >The innumerable caravan, that moves >To the pale realms of shade, where each shall take >His chamber in the silent halls of death, >Thou go not, like the quarry-slave at night, >Scourged to his dungeon, but sustain’d and sooth’d >By an unfaltering trust, approach thy grave, >Like one who wraps the drapery of his couch >About him, and lies down to pleasant dreams.

Response:

<SNIP> >And reproducing has also generally been looked upon as an important >part of life. Even if he doesn’t consciously want to sire bairnies, a >man’s desire for female company shows that the underlying instincts are >still at work.

I think it’s just a little more base than that. Everybody needs to know they are loved. It gives the person justification that they are on the right track as a person. It gives them consolance against the bad they see daily.

Response:

<SNIP> >> True….. >> But the time inbetween birth and death can be long and tiresome and >II found dat line verlly funny for sum reason.

Ummm, Ok. But it wasn’t meant to be funny. >> having a partner to share things with certainly would have made it a >> little more enjoyable. >hacing teh rong partner iz worse than beink alone.

Think so? How about never having a partner at all? But you won;t ever be in that position will you? Yes. Making a wrong choice is bad but think of this….. Even the Bad guy accepted you for some reason….. I wasn’t even good enough for the bad ones. How’s that grab ya? I wasn’t even good enough to be a mistake. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->> Or are you telling me that this aspect of life isn’t worth my >> lamenting?

Response:

Skinn…@hotmail.com wrote: > <SNIP> > >> True….. > >> But the time inbetween birth and death can be long and tiresome and > > II found dat line verlly funny for sum reason. > Ummm, Ok. But it wasn’t meant to be funny.

I know. mebbe I wuz laffin becawse of teh succint truth in in. > >> having a partner to share things with certainly would have made it > a >> little more enjoyable. > > hacing teh rong partner iz worse than beink alone. > Think so? How about never having a partner at all? But you won;t ever > be in that position will you? Yes. Making a wrong choice is bad but > think of this…..

if u neber had it I dunno.  mah sister neber hace had a bf. she is 47. she doesnt seem to mind. > Even the Bad guy accepted you for some reason…..

prolly becauseee he got what he wantedd owt of teh marriage > I wasn’t even good enough for the bad ones. How’s that grab ya? > I wasn’t even good enough to be a mistake.

u sound like u hace giben up. dont gibe up. I dont no u at alle but surely there iz something about u others would like. or hace u just not been tryink at all? > >> Or are you telling me that this aspect of life isn’t worth my > >> lamenting?

– ———————————————————————— Ms Pnoopie Pnats Usnet Legend http://mspoopiepants.blogspot.com/ ———————————————————————— —————- ———————————————————————— —————

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Hardpan wrote: > On 9 Apr 2005 16:47:59 -0700, "Conrad" <eremit…@lycos.com> wrote: >>Skinn…@hotmail.com wrote: >>>On Sat, 09 Apr 2005 03:24:33 -0700, Hardpan <hard…@yahoo.com> >>wrote: >>>>On Sat, 09 Apr 2005 00:00:30 -0400, Skinn…@hotmail.com wrote: >>>>>On 8 Apr 2005 20:49:42 -0700, "Largo" <coats2…@yahoo.com> wrote: >>>>>>>Hummm…… My father gave me the same speech when I was 17… >>and >>>>>>had >>>>>>>lagged behind most of my classmates. And here I am, 50…. >>having >>>>>>>spent a life building a character that I think is pretty strong. >>Most >>>>>>>of my aquaintences think so too. My employers seem to think so >>>>>>too…. >>>>>>>as do my co-workers. I was moved to another team… and got my >>first >>>>>>>sale on a totally new product line on my second day… an >>unheard of >>>>>>>occourance…. and all my old team members, who are in >>competition >>>>>>>with my new team…. came over and cheered for me. That was >>something >>>>>>>that has never been done in this office either. That’s >>character. >>>>>>>And yet I sit here alone… never having been chosen. So, tell >>me…. >>>>>>>how does that play into your theory? >>>>>>What else in your life IS working? Surely at 50 you’ve >>accomplished so >>>>>>much in other areas of your life that this one problem–no luck >>with >>>>>>women-doesn’t extinguish the good stuff shining brightly on the >>other >>>>>>facets of your life? >>>>>>Coats >>>>>Sure I have accomplished a few things. Nothing to brag about >>though. >>>>>Good thing too cause who would I brag to? >>>>>See, accomplishments are only good for the fleeting moment after >>>>>achieved. After that if you have nobody to share those memories >>>>>with…. Nobody to share the combined memories with… what good >>are >>>>>they? >>>>Plenty, if you ask me. >>>>Success breeds success, and everyone loves a winner. >>>>And don’t forget that when Dr. Death comes a calling for those who >>>>remember those "shared" memories, even that solace goes out the >>>>window. >>>>In the end, it all comes down to _you_, as an individual, not as a >>>>couple or as part of a group, which are transitory, at best. >>>True….. >>>But the time inbetween birth and death can be long and tiresome and >>>having a partner to share things with certainly would have made it a >>>little more enjoyable. >>>Or are you telling me that this aspect of life isn’t worth my >>>lamenting? >>And reproducing has also generally been looked upon as an important >>part of life. Even if he doesn’t consciously want to sire bairnies, a >>man’s desire for female company shows that the underlying instincts are >>still at work. > Thankfully, I have never ever wanted to have children myself and many > Men only put up with the reproduction of rug-rats because their women > have a biological clock ticking away like a time bomb, and she will > cut off the sex/love in a heartbeat when she figures this fact out. > Once women have the kids, many a Man has felt the gentle sound of a > policemans’ rap upside his head, after the women decides that she no > longer is in "love" with him, whatever that word means to a women, and > gives him the boot out the very door, that he bought and paid for with > years of hard work, with a call to 911 claiming that he was abusive or > some other made-up nonsense. > In my long experience on this world, the word "love" is used by > most western women to justify and rationalize just about everything > they do romantically and often things otherwise, as well. > "Love" is just an excuse to whore around and nothing more for most > women these days. > More and more women had better get used to the idea that they will > never, EVER be married to a sane, rational Man until their is some > equality in the laws governing marriage, divorce and child support.

That is the very point. Ever since shortly after my divorce I have been saying that I would never have got married had the fascists of State told the truth about the legal system instead of filling our heads with LIES about the right to be innocent until proven guilty beyond a reasonable doubt. Shortly after arriving at that conclusion I also concluded that to marry would be grounds for psychiatric incarceration of a man because it amounts to self-harming. The only reason that this is not true is because we are LIED to LIED to and LIED to about the wonderfull rights that we are supposed to have in the legal system. Thus the man is misled into this action. D. D.

Response:

On 10 Apr 2005 06:34:34 GMT, "Ms Pnoopie Pnats" <n…@not.com> wrote: – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->Skinn…@hotmail.com wrote: >> <SNIP> >> >> True….. >> >> But the time inbetween birth and death can be long and tiresome and >> > II found dat line verlly funny for sum reason. >> Ummm, Ok. But it wasn’t meant to be funny. >I know. mebbe I wuz laffin becawse of teh succint truth in in. >> >> having a partner to share things with certainly would have made it >> a >> little more enjoyable. >> > hacing teh rong partner iz worse than beink alone. >> Think so? How about never having a partner at all? But you won;t ever >> be in that position will you? Yes. Making a wrong choice is bad but >> think of this….. >if u neber had it I dunno.  mah sister neber hace had a bf. she is 47. >she doesnt seem to mind. >> Even the Bad guy accepted you for some reason….. >prolly becauseee he got what he wantedd owt of teh marriage >> I wasn’t even good enough for the bad ones. How’s that grab ya? >> I wasn’t even good enough to be a mistake. >u sound like u hace giben up. dont gibe up. I dont no u at alle but >surely there iz something about u others would like. or hace u just not >been tryink at all?

Apparently not enough to take home for even a part time pet. And like your sister…. I am not particularly concerned anymore. I’m too old for that sappy crap anyway. But it might have been nice… or even different had I been seen for the man I am instead of the package I reside in. And every woman that thinks she is fat… or thinks her hair is the worst in the world…. Or thinks he3r boobs are too small…. or her ass too big…. Well every one of them knows a little of what I have dealt wtih every time they get overlooked or tossed aside…. but they all totally miss the point. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->> >> Or are you telling me that this aspect of life isn’t worth my >> >> lamenting?

Response:

—–BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE—– Hash: SHA1 In article <a891d8002df92b217964db504c320…@localhost.talkaboutsupport.com> RonW <rtw…@hotmail.com> wrote: >Why is it (if thats the case) ’someone elses’ fault he hasn’t been >chosen?  He can choose just like anyone else.

"Which one of these 0 women would you like to choose, sir?" >Again, maybe some puzzle pieces need to be fitted in before I can >comment and/or advise on this.

Maybe he’s ugly *and* has no "game"? —–BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE—– Version: GnuPG v1.0.4 (GNU/Linux) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iD8DBQFCWlCd/FmLrNfLpjMRAsUXAKCOCCiWAa1LVMWy+ak43aQIcJ3OLwCfaWMk C40Lrpe94TghkcRteSiwztA= =+HJc —–END PGP SIGNATURE—–

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Skinn…@hotmail.com wrote: > On Sat, 09 Apr 2005 03:24:33 -0700, Hardpan <hard…@yahoo.com> wrote: > >On Sat, 09 Apr 2005 00:00:30 -0400, Skinn…@hotmail.com wrote: > >>On 8 Apr 2005 20:49:42 -0700, "Largo" <coats2…@yahoo.com> wrote: > >>>> Hummm…… My father gave me the same speech when I was 17… and > >>>had > >>>> lagged behind most of my classmates. And here I am, 50…. having > >>>> spent a life building a character that I think is pretty strong. Most > >>>> of my aquaintences think so too. My employers seem to think so > >>>too…. > >>>> as do my co-workers. I was moved to another team… and got my first > >>>> sale on a totally new product line on my second day… an unheard of > >>>> occourance…. and all my old team members, who are in competition > >>>> with my new team…. came over and cheered for me. That was something > >>>> that has never been done in this office either. That’s character. > >>>> And yet I sit here alone… never having been chosen. So, tell me…. > >>>> how does that play into your theory? > >>>What else in your life IS working? Surely at 50 you’ve accomplished so > >>>much in other areas of your life that this one problem–no luck with > >>>women-doesn’t extinguish the good stuff shining brightly on the other > >>>facets of your life? > >>>Coats > >>Sure I have accomplished a few things. Nothing to brag about though. > >>Good thing too cause who would I brag to? > >>See, accomplishments are only good for the fleeting moment after > >>achieved. After that if you have nobody to share those memories > >>with…. Nobody to share the combined memories with… what good are > >>they? > >Plenty, if you ask me. > >Success breeds success, and everyone loves a winner. > >And don’t forget that when Dr. Death comes a calling for those who > >remember those "shared" memories, even that solace goes out the > >window. > >In the end, it all comes down to _you_, as an individual, not as a > >couple or as part of a group, which are transitory, at best. > True….. > But the time inbetween birth and death can be long and tiresome and > having a partner to share things with certainly would have made it a > little more enjoyable. > Or are you telling me that this aspect of life isn’t worth my > lamenting?

And reproducing has also generally been looked upon as an important part of life. Even if he doesn’t consciously want to sire bairnies, a man’s desire for female company shows that the underlying instincts are still at work.

Response:

I’m not entirely clear what the problem is here. Obviously this guy’s doing something right. He has good work ethic as part of his character and is being recognized for it. I guess the ‘never been chosen’ comment doesn’t make much sense. Does he mean relationshipwise? (assuming thats the case since the article is taken from date.com)   Why is it (if thats the case) ’someone elses’ fault he hasn’t been chosen?  He can choose just like anyone else. Again, maybe some puzzle pieces need to be fitted in before I can comment and/or advise on this. RW

Response:

> >Plenty, if you ask me. > >Success breeds success, and everyone loves a winner. > >And don’t forget that when Dr. Death comes a calling for those who > >remember those "shared" memories, even that solace goes out the > >window. > >In the end, it all comes down to _you_, as an individual, not as a > >couple or as part of a group, which are transitory, at best.

Nice words from an unexpected source! > True….. > But the time inbetween birth and death can be long and tiresome and > having a partner to share things with certainly would have made it a > little more enjoyable. > Or are you telling me that this aspect of life isn’t worth my > lamenting?

If coming here and doing a bit of the lamenting thing is a help, lament away my friend. As a guy who also was destined to have no chance with the whole romantic thing, your bad feelings are understandable to me. I wore the same wounds, and even though, luckily for me, they healed years ago, I still remember how dreadful it felt. However, occasional lamenting should be followed with action lest it lead to more lamenting. Don’t you hate that song and dance about how it will all work out for you just like it did for most other people? Even I used to get a little of that. I won’t give you that song and dance. For some people, it just won’t happen. For you. For me. For whatever sad person is behind Darkfalz. For Mark. For SS. For Mzsmanic. For others I can’t think of off the top of my head. We are alone. We always will be. Nothing will ever change that. Forever. But it’s what you do after you realize that that matters. Fate slapped you when you were dealt the cards you were. Are you going to let it slap you again? These words won’t mean anything when your temporily depressed, like now apparently. Save them for later. Which brings me to my second point. Another thing I won’t give you is any variation of that sickening old saw, "Don’t worry, be happy." You feel bad right now. (If I’m reading your words correctly.) Nothing will change that in the immediate instance. Go on feeling bad for a while. Wallow in it a little. But here’s my method to forge ahead: when I get down, I know–at least the objective, unemotional side of me knows–that I will eventually feel better. And that future point is my lighthouse. I plod towards it through the dark, feeling bad all the way, but I have always, eventually, reached it. So have you, or you wouldn’t be here at 50. Finally, another thing that’s always helped me, strangely, is letting my objective side look at my problems with life and compare them with the "long view." For thousands of years, people have succeeded and failed, prospered or not, obtained intimacy or not. And they’re all dead. Inside fifty years max, you’ll me dead. I’ll be dead. Those who enter the river of time after us will bloom, wilt and die. What are your intangible worries when placed alongside the concept of eternity? Coats P.S. This poem always resonated with me when I looked at the "long view"–particularly the last third, which I’ve committed to memory and separated from the rest. It has long been popular among Americans as a soothing, objective and nonreligious look at death. Thanatopsis by William Cullen Bryant To him who in the love of Nature holds Communion with her visible forms, she speaks A various language; for his gayer hours She has a voice of gladness, and a smile And eloquence of beauty, and she glides Into his darker musings, with a mild And gentle sympathy, that steals away Their sharpness, ere he is aware. When thoughts Of the last bitter hour come like a blight Over thy spirit, and sad images Of the stern agony, and shroud, and pall, And breathless darkness, and the narrow house, Make thee to shudder, and grow sick at heart;– Go forth under the open sky, and list To Nature’s teachings, while from all around– Earth and her waters, and the depths of air,– Comes a still voice–Yet a few days, and thee The all-beholding sun shall see no more In all his course; nor yet in the cold ground, Where thy pale form was laid, with many tears, Nor in the embrace of ocean shall exist Thy image. Earth, that hourished thee, shall claim Thy growth, to be resolv’d to earth again; And, lost each human trace, surrend’ring up Thine individual being, shalt thou go To mix forever with the elements, To be a brother to th’ insensible rock And to the sluggish clod, which the rude swain Turns with his share, and treads upon. The oak Shall send his roots abroad, and pierce thy mould. Yet not to thy eternal resting place Shalt thou retire alone–nor couldst thou wish Couch more magnificent. Thou shalt lie down , With patriarchs of the infant world–with kings The powerful of the earth–the wise, the good, Fair forms, and hoary seers of ages past, All in one mighty sepulchre.–The hills Rock-ribb’d and ancient as the sun,–the vales Stretching in pensive quietness between; The vernal woods–rivers that move In majesty, and the complaining brooks That make the meadows green; and pour’d round all, Old ocean’s grey and melancholy waste,– Are but the solemn decorations all Of the great tomb of man. The golden sun, The planets, all the infinite host of heaven, Are shining on the sad abodes of death, Through the still lapse of ages. All that tread The globe are but a handful to the tribes That slumber in its bosom.–Take the wings Of morning–and the Barcan desert pierce, Or lost thyself in the continuous woods Where rolls the Oregan, and hears no sound, Save his own dashings–yet–the dead are there, And millions in those solitudes, since first The flight of years began, have laid them down In their last sleep–the dead reign there alone. So shalt thou rest–and what if thou shalt fall Unnoticed by the living–and no friend Take note of thy departure? All that breathe Will share thy destiny. The gay will laugh, When thou art gone, the solemn brood of care Plod on, and each one as before will chase His favourite phantom; yet all these shall leave Their mirth and their employments, and shall come, And make their bed with thee. As the long train Of ages glide away, the sons of men, The youth in life’s green spring, and he who goes In the full strength of years, matron, and maid, The bow’d with age, the infant in the smiles And beauty of its innocent age cut off,– Shall one by one be gathered to thy side, By those, who in their turn shall follow them. So live, that when thy summons comes to join The innumerable caravan, that moves To the pale realms of shade, where each shall take His chamber in the silent halls of death, Thou go not, like the quarry-slave at night, Scourged to his dungeon, but sustain’d and sooth’d By an unfaltering trust, approach thy grave, Like one who wraps the drapery of his couch About him, and lies down to pleasant dreams.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -On Sat, 09 Apr 2005 03:24:33 -0700, Hardpan <hard…@yahoo.com> wrote: >On Sat, 09 Apr 2005 00:00:30 -0400, Skinn…@hotmail.com wrote: >>On 8 Apr 2005 20:49:42 -0700, "Largo" <coats2…@yahoo.com> wrote: >>>> Hummm…… My father gave me the same speech when I was 17… and >>>had >>>> lagged behind most of my classmates. And here I am, 50…. having >>>> spent a life building a character that I think is pretty strong. Most >>>> of my aquaintences think so too. My employers seem to think so >>>too…. >>>> as do my co-workers. I was moved to another team… and got my first >>>> sale on a totally new product line on my second day… an unheard of >>>> occourance…. and all my old team members, who are in competition >>>> with my new team…. came over and cheered for me. That was something >>>> that has never been done in this office either. That’s character. >>>> And yet I sit here alone… never having been chosen. So, tell me…. >>>> how does that play into your theory? >>>What else in your life IS working? Surely at 50 you’ve accomplished so >>>much in other areas of your life that this one problem–no luck with >>>women-doesn’t extinguish the good stuff shining brightly on the other >>>facets of your life? >>>Coats >>Sure I have accomplished a few things. Nothing to brag about though. >>Good thing too cause who would I brag to? >>See, accomplishments are only good for the fleeting moment after >>achieved. After that if you have nobody to share those memories >>with…. Nobody to share the combined memories with… what good are >>they? >Plenty, if you ask me. >Success breeds success, and everyone loves a winner. >And don’t forget that when Dr. Death comes a calling for those who >remember those "shared" memories, even that solace goes out the >window. >In the end, it all comes down to _you_, as an individual, not as a >couple or as part of a group, which are transitory, at best.

True….. But the time inbetween birth and death can be long and tiresome and having a partner to share things with certainly would have made it a little more enjoyable. Or are you telling me that this aspect of life isn’t worth my lamenting?

Response:

> Hummm…… My father gave me the same speech when I was 17… and had > lagged behind most of my classmates. And here I am, 50…. having > spent a life building a character that I think is pretty strong. Most > of my aquaintences think so too. My employers seem to think so too…. > as do my co-workers. I was moved to another team… and got my first > sale on a totally new product line on my second day… an unheard of > occourance…. and all my old team members, who are in competition > with my new team…. came over and cheered for me. That was something > that has never been done in this office either. That’s character. > And yet I sit here alone… never having been chosen. So, tell me…. > how does that play into your theory?

What else in your life IS working? Surely at 50 you’ve accomplished so much in other areas of your life that this one problem–no luck with women-doesn’t extinguish the good stuff shining brightly on the other facets of your life? Coats

Response:

On 8 Apr 2005 20:49:42 -0700, "Largo" <coats2…@yahoo.com> wrote: – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->> Hummm…… My father gave me the same speech when I was 17… and >had >> lagged behind most of my classmates. And here I am, 50…. having >> spent a life building a character that I think is pretty strong. Most >> of my aquaintences think so too. My employers seem to think so >too…. >> as do my co-workers. I was moved to another team… and got my first >> sale on a totally new product line on my second day… an unheard of >> occourance…. and all my old team members, who are in competition >> with my new team…. came over and cheered for me. That was something >> that has never been done in this office either. That’s character. >> And yet I sit here alone… never having been chosen. So, tell me…. >> how does that play into your theory? >What else in your life IS working? Surely at 50 you’ve accomplished so >much in other areas of your life that this one problem–no luck with >women-doesn’t extinguish the good stuff shining brightly on the other >facets of your life? >Coats

Sure I have accomplished a few things. Nothing to brag about though. Good thing too cause who would I brag to? See, accomplishments are only good for the fleeting moment after achieved. After that if you have nobody to share those memories with…. Nobody to share the combined memories with… what good are they?

Response:

A "gift" – sort of…

Question:

Sounds wonderful…! Make sure you take a camera…. and take lots of pictures…..

yep…

Response:

You have a good ex.  Enjoy the trip! – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I just wanted to share this, it’s a wonderful thing to me. As i’ve talked about a lot, my ex has been very cooperative in facilitating my ongoing relationship with our sons (as the NCP).    Maybe becuz he was a NCP in his prior marriage/divorce and knows how painful it could be, i don’t know. Anyway, he came up with an awesome idea. When the kids were growing up, the happiest memories of all were the yearly trips to Disneyland, ever since each of them was a baby.  Even during the rockiest parts of the marriage, the Disneyland trips were the brightest memories.  I went there myself yearly ever since i was a kid, too – brightest memories amidst a lot of dark ones.  Anyway, the last time I went with my kids (or at all, for that matter) was in 1996, before we split up.  I figured I’d never be able to go with them again, since the boys are grown and going their own ways and all that.  (18 & 21) Well, in a couple of months BOTH sons will be moved out of state, one to make it on his own, the other to live at college.  Their dad made an offer to make arrangements to get us all to Disneyland "one last time"….  I cry just thinking about it!  It will be crowded and all that, but i can’t think of a better "mother’s day" gift than spending ONE MORE day with my boys at "The Happiest Place on Earth"….   I can’t think about them moving…  not yet…  that’s gonna be difficult… sh*t!  now you made me cry again.

Response:

Anyway, he came up with an awesome idea. When the kids were growing up, the happiest memories of all were the yearly trips to Disneyland, ever since each of them was a baby.  Even during the rockiest parts of the marriage, the Disneyland trips were the brightest memories.  I went there myself yearly ever since i was a kid, too –

That really is nice of him…

Response:

You know, ML, from many of the things you have said about your ex, he really does seem like rather a decent person. Pamela

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I just wanted to share this, it’s a wonderful thing to me. As i’ve talked about a lot, my ex has been very cooperative in facilitating my ongoing relationship with our sons (as the NCP).    Maybe becuz he was a NCP in his prior marriage/divorce and knows how painful it could be, i don’t know. Anyway, he came up with an awesome idea. When the kids were growing up, the happiest memories of all were the yearly trips to Disneyland, ever since each of them was a baby.  Even during the rockiest parts of the marriage, the Disneyland trips were the brightest memories.  I went there myself yearly ever since i was a kid, too – brightest memories amidst a lot of dark ones.  Anyway, the last time I went with my kids (or at all, for that matter) was in 1996, before we split up.  I figured I’d never be able to go with them again, since the boys are grown and going their own ways and all that.  (18 & 21) Well, in a couple of months BOTH sons will be moved out of state, one to make it on his own, the other to live at college.  Their dad made an offer to make arrangements to get us all to Disneyland "one last time"….  I cry just thinking about it!  It will be crowded and all that, but i can’t think of a better "mother’s day" gift than spending ONE MORE day with my boys at "The Happiest Place on Earth"…. I can’t think about them moving…  not yet…  that’s gonna be difficult… sh*t!  now you made me cry again.

Response:

You know, ML, from many of the things you have said about your ex, he really does seem like rather a decent person.

He has changed so much over the last few years, not just his attitude towards me, but towards the kids and other people in general. We’ve had some talks about it on the phone, and he admits that for years he was in denial of a lot of painful stuff, and now he’s come to face and accept it, and it’s given him a whole lot of peace in his life.   We don’t even blame each other any more for the hurts we caused each other. I think maybe that’s the greatest "gift" that two divorced people can give to their kids.

Response:

Yeah.  In fact….well, let’s not go there.    Sigh. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – You know, ML, from many of the things you have said about your ex, he really does seem like rather a decent person. Pamela I just wanted to share this, it’s a wonderful thing to me. As i’ve talked about a lot, my ex has been very cooperative in facilitating my ongoing relationship with our sons (as the NCP).    Maybe becuz he was a NCP in his prior marriage/divorce and knows how painful it could be, i don’t know. Anyway, he came up with an awesome idea. When the kids were growing up, the happiest memories of all were the yearly trips to Disneyland, ever since each of them was a baby.  Even during the rockiest parts of the marriage, the Disneyland trips were the brightest memories.  I went there myself yearly ever since i was a kid, too – brightest memories amidst a lot of dark ones.  Anyway, the last time I went with my kids (or at all, for that matter) was in 1996, before we split up.  I figured I’d never be able to go with them again, since the boys are grown and going their own ways and all that.  (18 & 21) Well, in a couple of months BOTH sons will be moved out of state, one to make it on his own, the other to live at college.  Their dad made an offer to make arrangements to get us all to Disneyland "one last time"….  I cry just thinking about it!  It will be crowded and all that, but i can’t think of a better "mother’s day" gift than spending ONE MORE day with my boys at "The Happiest Place on Earth"…. I can’t think about them moving…  not yet…  that’s gonna be difficult… sh*t!  now you made me cry again.

Response:

thinking about it!  It will be crowded and all that, but i can’t think of a better "mother’s day" gift than spending ONE MORE day with my boys at "The Happiest Place on Earth"….  

wow. bogey

Response:

thinking about it!  It will be crowded and all that, but i can’t think of a better "mother’s day" gift than spending ONE MORE day with my boys at "The Happiest Place on Earth"….  

actually, no, technically he left the marriage first, and i initiated the divorce legally. but there were plenty of reasons.  A yearly trip to Disneyland was one of the BRIGHT spots.  But maybe becuz we’d mostly split up, each take a kid and go separate ways, meet for lunch and trade kids and meet up again before closing time. Now that his job is on the line this may get called off, i don’t know.  :-(  I was planning to pay half the expenses anyway, so maybe it will still go thru. Just becuz people are divorced they don’t have to act like they hate each other (like when we were married, haha – not).  The boys wanted to give him a special type of canary for his birthday a couple years back but didn’t have the money, i took them out to pick it out at a bird farm and paid eighty-some dollars for it.  Being kind to one another is the best thing for the kids, IMO.  Sure we still have disagreements, pretty big ones actually.  The kids know that, they’re adults and understand why things happened the way they did, but they also see an example of two people attempting to get along in a civil manner and treating one another with the respect that decent human beings deserve.  Promoting a close, loving relationship between one’s kid(s) and their other parent is good for the kid(s), IMO.  Also IMO, pulling the kid(s) emotionally or physically away from the other parent is ultimately harmful to the kid(s). I got over whining about the "injustices" a long time ago, and he did too. They’re not forgotten, but they just seem irrelevant now.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I just wanted to share this, it’s a wonderful thing to me. As i’ve talked about a lot, my ex has been very cooperative in facilitating my ongoing relationship with our sons (as the NCP).    Maybe becuz he was a NCP in his prior marriage/divorce and knows how painful it could be, i don’t know. Anyway, he came up with an awesome idea. When the kids were growing up, the happiest memories of all were the yearly trips to Disneyland, ever since each of them was a baby.  Even during the rockiest parts of the marriage, the Disneyland trips were the brightest memories.  I went there myself yearly ever since i was a kid, too – brightest memories amidst a lot of dark ones.  Anyway, the last time I went with my kids (or at all, for that matter) was in 1996, before we split up.  I figured I’d never be able to go with them again, since the boys are grown and going their own ways and all that.  (18 & 21) Well, in a couple of months BOTH sons will be moved out of state, one to make it on his own, the other to live at college.  Their dad made an offer to make arrangements to get us all to Disneyland "one last time"….  I cry just thinking about it!  It will be crowded and all that, but i can’t think of a better "mother’s day" gift than spending ONE MORE day with my boys at "The Happiest Place on Earth"….   I can’t think about them moving…  not yet…  that’s gonna be difficult… sh*t!  now you made me cry again.

That sounds wonderful ML!  :) Cheryl

Response:

Sounds wonderful…! Make sure you take a camera…. and take lots of pictures…..

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I just wanted to share this, it’s a wonderful thing to me. As i’ve talked about a lot, my ex has been very cooperative in facilitating my ongoing relationship with our sons (as the NCP).    Maybe becuz he was a NCP in his prior marriage/divorce and knows how painful it could be, i don’t know. Anyway, he came up with an awesome idea. When the kids were growing up, the happiest memories of all were the yearly trips to Disneyland, ever since each of them was a baby.  Even during the rockiest parts of the marriage, the Disneyland trips were the brightest memories.  I went there myself yearly ever since i was a kid, too – brightest memories amidst a lot of dark ones.  Anyway, the last time I went with my kids (or at all, for that matter) was in 1996, before we split up.  I figured I’d never be able to go with them again, since the boys are grown and going their own ways and all that.  (18 & 21) Well, in a couple of months BOTH sons will be moved out of state, one to make it on his own, the other to live at college.  Their dad made an offer to make arrangements to get us all to Disneyland "one last time"….  I cry just thinking about it!  It will be crowded and all that, but i can’t think of a better "mother’s day" gift than spending ONE MORE day with my boys at "The Happiest Place on Earth"…. I can’t think about them moving…  not yet…  that’s gonna be difficult… sh*t!  now you made me cry again.

Response:

I just wanted to share this, it’s a wonderful thing to me. As i’ve talked about a lot, my ex has been very cooperative in facilitating my ongoing relationship with our sons (as the NCP).    Maybe becuz he was a NCP in his prior marriage/divorce and knows how painful it could be, i don’t know. Anyway, he came up with an awesome idea. When the kids were growing up, the happiest memories of all were the yearly trips to Disneyland, ever since each of them was a baby.  Even during the rockiest parts of the marriage, the Disneyland trips were the brightest memories.  I went there myself yearly ever since i was a kid, too – brightest memories amidst a lot of dark ones.  Anyway, the last time I went with my kids (or at all, for that matter) was in 1996, before we split up.  I figured I’d never be able to go with them again, since the boys are grown and going their own ways and all that.  (18 & 21) Well, in a couple of months BOTH sons will be moved out of state, one to make it on his own, the other to live at college.  Their dad made an offer to make arrangements to get us all to Disneyland "one last time"….  I cry just thinking about it!  It will be crowded and all that, but i can’t think of a better "mother’s day" gift than spending ONE MORE day with my boys at "The Happiest Place on Earth"….   I can’t think about them moving…  not yet…  that’s gonna be difficult… sh*t!  now you made me cry again.

Response:

If they want a divorce, why don't they just do it?

Question:

She’s crying to be heard.  That dont mean that you’ll garee with what she has to say of course!  Good luck. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’ve seen it happen a few too many times where the woman files for divorce (no-fault) and then drags it out. It’s happening to me right now. I’ve seen it happen to several friends of mine. I really don’t get it. If you want a divorce (man or woman) and you go through the trouble of filing for it, why, then, wouldn’t you try to get it over as quickly as possible? In my own situation, we were separated Oct 1st (still living in the same house). To this day I still don’t get what the reason is and figure I won’t ever get it. Friends and family who have spoken to us both over the course of this were, at first, on the fence trying not to take sides have since come around and said, "We don’t get it, either." (these are friends and family from both sides here). So, I’m left with a wife who wants a divorce. Says she doesn’t love me, etc. She files January 8th. She gets a judge to kick me out at the end of March. Now I’m extended-stay-motel guy. I’ve got 6 months under my belt of ‘no-wife’ and 3 full months of divorce under my belth with no proposal sent over by her. The only proposal that has been told (verbally) to my lawyer was, "We want it all plus a huge check each month." Even if she really does want it all, why not write that up and send it over so we can hash it out? That’s my story (well, part of the legal part of it). Other stories about my friends are similar. So, the question is: Why go through all the trouble of filing for divorce and then drag it out for such a long time when it could be resolved fairly quickly? I figure that the answer will come in one of two ways from the women here: 1) There is something *painfully* obvious that I’m just not getting as a guy. 2) They don’t get it either, these women (the ones who file but won’t settle) are just nuts. I can understand a similar, but different, situation where one party files for divorce and the party who didn’t want the divorce then drags it out. That, at least in some ways, makes more sense. For the filing party to drag it out makes no sense. Any thoughts? Brad

Response:

Brad: Sounds to me like she’s out to ‘ouch’ you. I simply moved out – took the kids with me, left the furniture, etc.. and.. started over. Divorced almost a year now… happier.. still no support check in mail (he moved in with his mom) but… I did it, am happier – but I guess every person has a different approach huh? Sue him for support?  How do you get $ out of a rock? Deb.

Response:

(I’m including my original message below just so that you don’t have to go back through old articles and try to climb up the thread (this was originally posted nearly a month ago) – much against the advice I gave someone else about not posting the original message in a followup – I’m using time as my defense here, though) I think I may have come up with a reason to my original question: If the marriage has no value to the party filing for divorce (to where that party decides to leave or cheat or whatever) then why would the divorce have value or meaning? The divorce really only has meaning/value to the person who thought that marriage means something and has value. So, the person who decides to leave doesn’t really have any incentive to do anything more than what it would take to accomplish their goals (getting out or getting the other party kicked out and possibly setting up some financial incentive like alimony or child support or in the major-earner’s case, not setting up any of that). Filing for divorce is a tool for them to do that but once that tool has been used to accomplish their goal, there really isn’t much of a reason to continue with it. The concept of divorce having meaning relies solely on the concept of marriage having meaning. Enjoy! Brad

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’ve seen it happen a few too many times where the woman files for divorce (no-fault) and then drags it out. It’s happening to me right now. I’ve seen it happen to several friends of mine. I really don’t get it. If you want a divorce (man or woman) and you go through the trouble of filing for it, why, then, wouldn’t you try to get it over as quickly as possible? In my own situation, we were separated Oct 1st (still living in the same house). To this day I still don’t get what the reason is and figure I won’t ever get it. Friends and family who have spoken to us both over the course of this were, at first, on the fence trying not to take sides have since come around and said, "We don’t get it, either." (these are friends and family from both sides here). So, I’m left with a wife who wants a divorce. Says she doesn’t love me, etc. She files January 8th. She gets a judge to kick me out at the end of March. Now I’m extended-stay-motel guy. I’ve got 6 months under my belt of ‘no-wife’ and 3 full months of divorce under my belth with no proposal sent over by her. The only proposal that has been told (verbally) to my lawyer was, "We want it all plus a huge check each month." Even if she really does want it all, why not write that up and send it over so we can hash it out? That’s my story (well, part of the legal part of it). Other stories about my friends are similar. So, the question is: Why go through all the trouble of filing for divorce and then drag it out for such a long time when it could be resolved fairly quickly? I figure that the answer will come in one of two ways from the women here: 1) There is something *painfully* obvious that I’m just not getting as a guy. 2) They don’t get it either, these women (the ones who file but won’t settle) are just nuts. I can understand a similar, but different, situation where one party files for divorce and the party who didn’t want the divorce then drags it out. That, at least in some ways, makes more sense. For the filing party to drag it out makes no sense. Any thoughts? Brad

Response:

I’ve seen it happen a few too many times where the woman files for divorce (no-fault) and then drags it out. It’s happening to me right now. I’ve seen it happen to several friends of mine. I really don’t get it. If you want a divorce (man or woman) and you go through the trouble of filing for it, why, then, wouldn’t you try to get it over as quickly as possible? In my own situation, we were separated Oct 1st (still living in the same house). To this day I still don’t get what the reason is and figure I won’t ever get it. Friends and family who have spoken to us both over the course of this were, at first, on the fence trying not to take sides have since come around and said, "We don’t get it, either." (these are friends and family from both sides here). So, I’m left with a wife who wants a divorce. Says she doesn’t love me, etc. She files January 8th. She gets a judge to kick me out at the end of March. Now I’m extended-stay-motel guy. I’ve got 6 months under my belt of ‘no-wife’ and 3 full months of divorce under my belth with no proposal sent over by her. The only proposal that has been told (verbally) to my lawyer was, "We want it all plus a huge check each month." Even if she really does want it all, why not write that up and send it over so we can hash it out? That’s my story (well, part of the legal part of it). Other stories about my friends are similar. So, the question is: Why go through all the trouble of filing for divorce and then drag it out for such a long time when it could be resolved fairly quickly? I figure that the answer will come in one of two ways from the women here: 1) There is something *painfully* obvious that I’m just not getting as a guy. 2) They don’t get it either, these women (the ones who file but won’t settle) are just nuts. I can understand a similar, but different, situation where one party files for divorce and the party who didn’t want the divorce then drags it out. That, at least in some ways, makes more sense. For the filing party to drag it out makes no sense. Any thoughts? Brad

Response:

kick me out at the end of March. Now I’m extended-stay-motel guy. I’ve got 6 months under my belt of ‘no-wife’ and 3 full months of divorce under my belth with no proposal sent over by her. The only proposal that has been told (verbally) to my lawyer was, "We want it all plus a huge check each month." Even if she really does want it all, why not write that up and send it over so we can hash it out?

You providing benefits of some sort, or is she waiting for you to get a big inheritance?  No sense dragging it out, and if she’s got an order kicking you out of the house, she thinks it’s over. Get a lawyer, file, and be done w. it.  By then she’ll have decided if she wants you or the guy she’s seeing that she won’t tell you about.  Either way, you’re in limbo until the filing is done.  

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – kick me out at the end of March. Now I’m extended-stay-motel guy. I’ve got 6 months under my belt of ‘no-wife’ and 3 full months of divorce under my belth with no proposal sent over by her. The only proposal that has been told (verbally) to my lawyer was, "We want it all plus a huge check each month." Even if she really does want it all, why not write that up and send it over so we can hash it out? You providing benefits of some sort, or is she waiting for you to get a big inheritance?  No sense dragging it out, and if she’s got an order kicking you out of the house, she thinks it’s over. Get a lawyer, file, and be done w. it.  By then she’ll have decided if she wants you or the guy she’s seeing that she won’t tell you about.  Either way, you’re in limbo until the filing is done.

I must not have been clear – She filed in January. I’m was trying to work it out up until that point but it didn’t work. I just want out, at this point. I don’t want to drag it out. I want to be done with it. Your statement of, "Get a lawyer, file, and be done with it," is exactly what I’m trying to do. My whole question was, "Why would she (and other women – it seems to happen frequently enough where I see a pattern) go to all the trouble of filing for divorce and then not follow through by wrapping it all up?" There is no inheritance. I am paying for the mortgage and child support (which is close to cost of the mortgage). She is, essentially, getting paid to live free (she is supposed to pay me back for the utilities, though). That seems like a pretty sweet deal for her to me but I don’t think she’s thinking a whole lot about the finances of it all. I just don’t get why she just doesn’t divorce me and be done with it. Brad

Response:

My whole question was, "Why would she (and other women – it seems to happen frequently enough where I see a pattern) go to all the trouble of filing for divorce and then not follow through by wrapping it all up?"

I don’t know what’s going on with her but i can only share my own story. After i discussed divorce with my ex (but before i actually got anywhere to file) i got a call from the dr. and found out i was very ill and needed surgery.  Kind of delayed things, and recovering in that "atmosphere" was pretty uncomfortable for both of us, my not wanting to be "taken care of" although that’s what i needed, and his having to care for a sick wife with whom he was divorcing.  Soon as i was well enough to drive, i filed.  He was "surprised" and apparently thought the illness might change things, i don’t know.  A time in my life i DON’T care to recall in too much detail.  But anyway, ours was dragged out a couple years for financial/medical insurance reasons.  We BOTH wanted to get it "over with" but there was so much to get worked out, and i needed to find a place to live and be strong enough to be able to work to pay for it, which took some time. But probably a whole different story from whatever’s going on with your wife.

Response:

But probably a whole different story from whatever’s going on with your

wife. Way different. There’s nothing (that I know of) that’s stopping her. It’s the same case with a friend of mine. He’s got everything worked out (she wanted it) but she won’t sign. Unless, in my case, she really does just want to get paid to live free and this is just a means of doing so. I just don’t think that that is going through her head. Of course, the end result is this: * I had to stop trying to figure out why we were getting divorced. That was driving me nuts (all of the what ifs, if only’s, etc.) * I had to stop thinking about the financial aspects of it ("She wants that much to raise a kid? That’s crazy!" – "The state completely backs her no matter what she does?" – "She gets to up and leave anytime she wants and I have to pay?"). It’s just the way that it is and I know I’m not going to be the one to change it. * Now I have to try to stop trying to figure out why she doesn’t just divorce me and get it over with. It’s a bit like having a gun pointed to your head 24/7. I suppose, eventually, that I’ll get used to it and when the trigger is pulled that it really won’t matter. I was just wondering if there is a woman here that decided to divorce her husband (no fault) and went and filed and then drug it out for an inordinate amount of time. If so, what was your reason? In my case (and my friend’s) it’s not medical or financial. I really just don’t get it. Enjoy! Brad

Response:

there was no real detriment to being legally married.  Since your stbx got so far as to file, maybe that’s not her problem, though.

My only guess is that, once she filed, it wasn’t that big of a step to force me out of the house (I’m out based on the word, ‘tension’ – used successfully in the sentence: "There’s tension in the house.").  At this point, though. There really isn’t any reason for her to go forward. She’s got everything she wants. I *really* want to be divorced and be done with it. I don’t have anyone waiting on the side or anything. I just want this albatross of marriage/divorce as far away from me as I can get it. I’m sort of stuck in that I can’t really do anything until I’m divorced except go to work and go back to the motel. If I saved up any money and bought a house to live in she may claim that as 1/2 hers. I have no furniture (I was told, essentially, "Get your clothes and get out – Don’t forget to send a huge check back, though.") so an apartment is out for right now. I’m just in this weird ’stuck’ mode. Enjoy! Brad

Response:

Just one other comment that I’ll add to my own message: The end result is probably going to be this: "Don’t try to make sense out of the senseless. Just accept it for what it is."

Yup, now you got it.  :)

Response:

LoriMc said… My ex turned into this odd person I didn’t even know anymore?  I never did figure out alot of the "why" questions, after awhile it just didn’t matter to me anymore.  

Same with me. It ceased to matter after a while.  I realized I could never understand her reasons because I was looking at things from my rational viewpoint.  To be honest, I’m not sure she ever understood them herself.  I think she was driven by compulsions and had no long range plan in mind. Casey "A clear conscience is usually the sign of a bad memory."                                      -Steven Wright

Response:

Just one other comment that I’ll add to my own message: The end result is probably going to be this: "Don’t try to make sense out of the senseless. Just accept it for what it is." Enjoy! Brad

Yep, pretty much.  I had (almost) the reverse happen to me;  he wanted out, he moved out, he didn’t even get to the filing stage.  I waited a few months and filed myself;  at that point I would still have liked to work things out, but it was abundantly clear that it wasn’t going to happen and I figured I might as well get it over with. In my ex’s case, my best guess at a reason for not filing was that he just didn’t get around to it.  He wasn’t looking to get married again anytime soon, I wasn’t trying to screw him over and he knew it, so there was no real detriment to being legally married.  Since your stbx got so far as to file, maybe that’s not her problem, though. Michelle

Response:

Just one other comment that I’ll add to my own message: The end result is probably going to be this: "Don’t try to make sense out of the senseless. Just accept it for what it is." Enjoy! Brad

Response:

My whole question was, "Why would she (and other women – it seems to happen frequently enough where I see a pattern) go to all the trouble of filing for divorce and then not follow through by wrapping it all up?"

You never really know the answers as to why some people do some things.  I know I tried to find the answers to so many why’s when my marriage ended…..Try to let it go, focus on you. My ex turned into this odd person I didn’t even know anymore?  I never did figure out alot of the "why" questions, after awhile it just didn’t matter to me anymore.  I have a life of my own to live now and what is going on in the pea brain of his ceased to matter. Lori Mc

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – kick me out at the end of March. Now I’m extended-stay-motel guy. I’ve got 6 months under my belt of ‘no-wife’ and 3 full months of divorce under my belth with no proposal sent over by her. The only proposal that has been told (verbally) to my lawyer was, "We want it all plus a huge check each month." Even if she really does want it all, why not write that up and send it over so we can hash it out? You providing benefits of some sort, or is she waiting for you to get a big inheritance?  No sense dragging it out, and if she’s got an order kicking you out of the house, she thinks it’s over. Get a lawyer, file, and be done w. it.  By then she’ll have decided if she wants you or the guy she’s seeing that she won’t tell you about.  Either way, you’re in limbo until the filing is done. I must not have been clear – She filed in January. I’m was trying to work it out up until that point but it didn’t work. I just want out, at this point. I don’t want to drag it out. I want to be done with it. Your statement of, "Get a lawyer, file, and be done with it," is exactly what I’m trying to do. My whole question was, "Why would she (and other women – it seems to happen frequently enough where I see a pattern) go to all the trouble of filing for divorce and then not follow through by wrapping it all up?"

This isn’t a woman thing as much as it is a human thing.  It is human nature to do what is in your own best interests.  If one party will gain an advantage, financial or otherwise, from delaying proceedings odds are they will do so.  In your case it could be that she likes the sweet deal she’s got going, so she wants to keep is as long as possible because she isn’t sure she’ll get the same deal in the divorce.  It could be that she thinks if she drags it out long enough you’ll give her more in the divorce just to go ahead and be done with it, so she may perceive an advantage.  It may be that she wants to stay on your health insurance as long as possible (in most places, health insurance coverage stops for the ex-spouse when the divorce is final, which makes this a reason to delay proceedings).  It may be that she thinks she’ll lose the house in the divorce, and wants to stay there as long as possible.  While this may not apply to you, a lot of the time one spouse or the other will find it personally advantageous to delay proceedings because they are not paying spousal support or child support, and they know they will have to, and they don’t want to, so they drag things out.  Sometimes it is a control issue.  Sometimes it is because one spouse is conflicted about the divorce – they think they want it, but want to keep the other party on the hook "just in case".  There are a lot of reasons that people (not just women) drag out proceedings.

Response:

So, the question is: Why go through all the trouble of filing for divorce and then drag it out for such a long time when it could be resolved fairly quickly?

Manipulation, with the threat of divorce as the means. She doesn’t wanna be divorced, she wants to be married to you on her terms. If I’m right, then you do not want to be married to this person. — "Rudeness is the weak man’s imitation of strength"

Response:

Bishop) says… Your statement of, "Get a lawyer, file, and be done with it," is exactly what I’m trying to do.

Instruct your lawyer to get a court date ASAP.  Don’t wait for a proposal, write up your own and let them respond to it.  As a suggestion, sell all assets except for personal clothing and heirlooms, and split the proceeds, each of you to go your own way with no further contact.  That is equitable, and any judge will go for it.  See how she feels about having Solomon slice up the baby.   You are within your rights to enforce a prompt settlement.  Don’t let your attorney drag it out for a year.  It should be over and done with in 3 months.  

Response:

China fucked the United Nations

Question:

After exchanging about 30 e-mails, two weeks ago, I had a meeting with a Chinese female economics student. She is 31 years old and married. Her husband is a chemical engineer, living in a big city in N. China. They have one child. (of course) The purpose of our meeting was absolutely clear:  She would tell me about the economic situation in China, as my wife and I want to relocate to China at the end of this year. It was her idea to continue our email conversation in a personal meeting. "We can make a walk over nice grassland" she wrote…   So I arranged a meeting. I picked her up in her apartment, close to the university.  I clearly don’t like grasslands and none of us had an idea where else to go for the meeting. So I drove her to an exclusive restaurant 40 km away from the city. The meeting was extremely useful, both for me as for her I suppose. We exchanged ideas about life in various areas in China, I explained her how to get a job here in W. Europe. We had a 4 hour conversation about a variety of subjects. About a particular company in her home town, I was interested in. About my family and hers, about my other contacts with Chinese people here. About how often she contacted her husband in remote China (by e-mail and webcam) About moral standards, the cost of living, taxes and business habits here, compared to China. About sneaky and violent Chinese people, about cold-hearted western business people. About age and whether to be concerned about it. She, with her 31 years, was the oldest student of the class. She clearly had a problem with that.   I, with my 51 years, don’t have such a problem.  I am considering a couple of years hard work or either retirement in China. About a lot of other issues, but we both more or less avoided the subject of relationships. We clearly had a business meeting, sure.  I had the impression that the other people in the restaurant had a different opinion about that. We both felt extremely comfortable in each others companionship. We made jokes and I enjoyed each and every word or movement of her. At the end of the afternoon, I paid the restaurant bill. She insisted to know the amount of the bill, so I showed her the note and I noticed some perplexity in her eyes. From that amount, she said, I can pay my food for an entire month. When we drove back, she all of a sudden raised the subject of whether or not to disclose our meeting to her husband / my wife.  I told her that I enjoyed the feeling of conspiracy.  She was highly indignant about my attitude and she by all means insisted to me to explain everything openly to my wife. She finally gets me to promise to think about it. I dropped her at the university ground, some fifty other students looking at us, when she stepped out of my car. Almost immediately, the same evening and the day after we both started exchanging e-mail messages again. About ‘thank you for the …(all kind of nice adjectives) day’. But still a safe distance. About a week ago, I had a (disclosed, unpublished) job opportunity for her. From our first meeting she expressed her ambition to embroider her CV with some work experience here in Europe, before to return to China. She met the job profile and I am on good terms with the general manager of that company, so I could arrange that for her. This inducted us for another appointment. Again, she took the initiative, without saying were or when to meet. The day after, in the late afternoon, I drove to the university and called her on her mobile when I was almost there. She was very excited on the phone and before I arrived there, she was waiting on the sidewalk for me, some books and her laptop in her hand. From what she said, it was very clear that she didn’t want to talk about the job.  The border was moved, shifted away from business to personal issues. We went to a pub. When we were properly seated, I noted that she arranged her chair next to the table in such a strange way that she faced me very close. I couldn’t avoid my legs touching her legs.  She almost permanently looked into my eyes.  But she avoided touching my hand. Subjects like beauty, art, personal skills, friends, marriage, divorce, ambitions, etc   passed the conversation. In spite of her strong insistence after our first meeting, she didn’t ask whether I told something to my wife. When I asked her how  _she_  handled this issue, she clearly stated that she didn’t felt the need to tell every single detail of her life to her husband. I had another business meeting later that day, so when I checked the time on my watch, she asked whether I had to go. She seemed disappointed but accepted that it had to be. All of a sudden, sitting in my car, she started telling some explicit stories about her fellow female Chinese students. One of these stories, I don’t want to withhold you: – I have a friend, a female Chinese classmate, much younger than I. She told me last week, she had a date with some boys here in the city. A real "date" you know…  With three boys at the same time… – With some boys from here? – No, with an Italian, a German and an English boy – Wow, that’s impressive. – Yes, it is.  Do you believe she just had a date? – I have no reason to think something else. – I know, she has made love with all three. – You must be kidding. – I’m sure she fucked the "United Nations" (I assure you, I literally wrote down here what she said) I was shocked and tried to understand why she told me that story on the way back to the university, although that story didn’t fit in the conversation at all.  When we almost arrived at the university, we were talking about keeping everything under control. We firmly agreed to do so. But, contrary to the agreement, just before she opened the door of my car, she unexpectedly kissed me and disappeared between the other students. I was perplexed. I drove my car to a quiet street to recover. That night, I wrote her a mail with some poetry and a lot of romantic stuff The day after nothing happened, she didn’t replied my mail. Yesterday afternoon she wrote an e-mail telling that I misunderstood her and asked me to get my feelings under control again. I was broken, completely down. I cried (yes, I did) and played hard rock music to push my feelings away. Today, she didn’t replied my SMS message… I have been cheated a couple of times in my life, but this is different. I can by no means understand why she did what she did. From my extensive travelling in China I learned that a lot of Chinese people have a very particular opinion about truth and verity.  (not to tell that they don’t mind to lie).  After all I learned to live with that, I even developed a nose for strangled stories. So, that’s no problem for me, I can live with it.  But all the time, I couldn’t catch her lying. The only explanation I can think of is that she discussed this issue with a classmate. And probably she was advised to break of the adventure. This story, although I feel myself deceived and disappointed, learned me that there are important and very important things in life.  I no longer care about politics, neither about my real estate or stock options. My wounds are not yet healed but it is my strong conviction that finally and after all, this adventure will strengthen me. Looking forward to your replies. Tell me how stupid I am. Please tell it softly. I’m not yet healed.

Response:

"Andrew Gallagher" <tr…@tijd.com> wrote in message

news:1qp6c.40111$ef6.2847792@phobos.telenet-ops.be… > After exchanging about 30 e-mails, two weeks ago, I had a meeting with a > Chinese female economics student. > She is 31 years old and married. Her husband is a chemical engineer, living > in a big city in N. China. They have one child. (of course)

Aren’t you a little old for a mid-life crisis? You’re married, make that your first priority and if it isn’t break it off before you start looking for new relationships. I hope you didn’t expect sympathy as you don’t don’t deserve any.

Response:

"Clockmeister" <no-…@nowhere.com> wrote > > "Andrew Gallagher" <tr…@tijd.com> wrote > > After exchanging about 30 e-mails, two weeks ago, I had a meeting with a > > Chinese female economics student. > > She is 31 years old and married. Her husband is a chemical engineer, > > living in a big city in N. China. They have one child. > Aren’t you a little old for a mid-life crisis?

The figure of age has nothing to do with the feeling of age As I explained in my story, she was much more concered about age than I > You’re married, make that your first priority

So was she > and if it isn’t break it off before you start looking > for new relationships.

Was I looking for that ? Were did you get that from ?

Response:

"Andrew Gallagher" <tr…@tijd.com> wrote in message

news:j9B6c.40635$xQ6.2873489@phobos.telenet-ops.be… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> "Clockmeister" <no-…@nowhere.com> wrote > > > "Andrew Gallagher" <tr…@tijd.com> wrote > > > After exchanging about 30 e-mails, two weeks ago, I had a meeting with a > > > Chinese female economics student. > > > She is 31 years old and married. Her husband is a chemical engineer, > > > living in a big city in N. China. They have one child. > > Aren’t you a little old for a mid-life crisis? > The figure of age has nothing to do with the feeling of age > As I explained in my story, > she was much more concered about age than I > > You’re married, make that your first priority > So was she > > and if it isn’t break it off before you start looking > > for new relationships. > Was I looking for that ? > Were did you get that from ?

Your story, and you know it.

Response:

It was just a summer thing. s

Response:

On Thu, 18 Mar 2004 22:30:21 +0000, the world was enlightented by Andrew Gallagher, unto whom the words are attributed: > Looking forward to your replies. Tell me how stupid I am. Please tell it > softly. I’m not yet healed.

Silly bugger.  You let yourself be led by the trousers, didn’t you? *sigh* I know how it feels though, you get all worked up about some woman or other, then come down with a crash when you discover it’s not going to happen – I’ve done it often enough – have learn’t not to permit myself to have raised hopes now.  Suppose you are all innocent from having been happily married for x years… Oh, and you’re stupid, but I’m only telling you that because you said to:-) Monster — Who stole my sig?  Who stole it? Own up, dammit!!  It was YOU, wasn’t it?

Response:

marriage amendment – Seperate can't be equal

Question:

<snip> > But never before has the Constitution been amended to restrict fundamental > civil rights and defy our deeply rooted national commitment to individual > liberty. Prohibition – this country’s last foray into using the Constitution > to define morality – was noted more for how it was breached than how it was > observed. And, it was notoriously short-lived.

This depends on what you understand to be a fundamental civil right, which is of course at the heart of the whole debate.  For example, the 13th Amendment abolished slavery.  From the point of view of abolitionists, this was an expansion of individual freedom.  To slave-owners and racists, this was a radical restriction of fundamental property rights.  It all depends on whether you believe black people are legal "persons".  Of course, everyone agrees with the 13th Amendment now, but I think it is fair to say that abolishing slavery constitutes an amendment defining morality. Secondly, everyone already has the same civil right to get married. Current marriage laws do not prohibit gays from getting married. There is no discrimination.  All consenting adults have an equal right to marry someone of the opposite sex.  The complaint of gays is that the refusal of the state to expand the meaning of marriage to accomodate the fact that they don’t like the choices that leaves them (given that they claim not to be attracted to members of the opposite sex) constitutes a violation of equal rights.  That is nonsense.  That is like having kleptomaniacs claim equal protection violation because the law prohibits stealing.  In fact, every law could constitute an equal protection violation against the people who want to violate it. The bottom line is that one’s sexual orientation does not legally limit one’s freedom to marry.  It may create an unpleasant practical dilemma but that is a personal problem not a constitutional one. Equal rights already exist for gays. > The so-called "marriage amendment" – proposed by Rep. Marilyn Musgrave, > R-Colo., and defining marriage as the union of a man and a woman – upsets > our historic balance of power between state and federal governments.

This is comical to hear from individuals who traditionally don’t favor states rights.  It is also historically inaccurate with respect to marriage.  States have always been free to administer and regulate marriage on matters tangential to the essence of marriage, but they have never been free to DEFINE marriage, which is why until recently you did not find a definition of marriage in the state laws; it was just universally understood to be between a man and a woman.  For example, Utah, Oklahoma, Arizona, and New Mexico were required as a condition of statehood to place irrevocable provisions in their constitutions prohibiting polygamy.  Why would this be if the govt had no role to play in defining marriage?  Polygamy is closer to the ideal of one man/woman marriage than gay marriage, which was inconceivable at the time (or they would have required them to put that provision in their constitution also).  Also, these same individuals who are suddenly big fans of states rights, will be the first to run to the US Supreme Court, asking them strike down all of the state’s Defense of Marriage Acts as unconstitutional.  When that happens, they will laugh all the way to the altar at conservative suckers who actually fell for the states rights argument, when it was actually a ploy to create an foothold for gay marriage.  They reserve the right for themselves to use the Constitution to strike down state laws they don’t like, but then accuse Conservatives of being hypocritical when they do the same thing.  Don’t fall for this trick. > The Constitution created a unique system of government, balancing the > freedom of the states to shape their own laws against the power of the > federal government. It has ensured that regulation of marriage, divorce and > other family law questions would be decided locally rather than nationally.

See above.  This is not a matter of mere family law… it is a matter of the most fundamental definition of what marriage is, not how marriage should be regulated.  It is most definitely a matter of federal interest because it would be almost impossible to maintain different definitions of marriage in different states.  Imagine if the federal government had allowed the aforementioned states to allow polygamy.  What would happen with these "groups" moved to another state that did not accept polygamy?  How would the state have handled?  Only allowed one of the women to count as the spouse?  Similar legal complications exist for gay marriage. > For example, Washington has permitted interracial marriage since 1868, even > though most states at the time barred it. It was nearly a hundred years > before the United States Supreme Court, based on fundamental principles of > equality, declared those laws unconstitutional. But in the meantime, > Washington was free to decide this question locally, based on the views of > its own citizens, rather than succumbing either to peer pressure from other > states or direct orders from the federal government.

And of course the fact that the Supreme Court outlawed this practice proves that marriage IS a matter of federal concern.  State definitions of marriage that were essentially racist were declared invalid, based on a federal standard. > The marriage amendment flies in the face of this ideal. It shifts power to > the federal government at the expense of local control. Historically, our > nation has benefited from the independence of its states, allowing regional > and local solutions to problems instead of insisting on one-size-fits-all > approaches. In a nation that is increasingly diverse, this preference for > local variation is crucial.

If there is ANY issue that is less amenable to "local variation", it is marriage, for the simple fact that married couples in one state can move to another state.  It is hard to imagine any other situation in which the status of an individual or couple changes simply because they move to another state.  The vary nature of marriage requires a federal one size fits all standard.  Secondary, less essential, matters related to marriage can be regulated at the state level (e.g. age of consent) but the basic definition can legitimately be imposed federally. > State sovereignty should be tread upon lightly, and only in the name of > promoting equality and individual freedom, not in the name of denying those > core values.

I see, now the strategy is clear.  They have expressed a convenient loophole here for violating state sovereignty; that is, federal power CAN be used in the interest of promoting "equality and individual freedom."  This makes it clear that the proponents of gay marriage think it is ok to REQUIRE states to accept gay marriage (either through federal statute or Supreme Court decision) because this promoteds "equality and individual freedom" which is more important than states rights, but it is wrong to FORBID them from accepting gay marriage because that violates states rights.  How convenient.  As long as you define your position as one promoting equality and freedom, then you can have your cake and eat it to.  You get to use the federal govt to impose your position on all the states, but forbid the federal govt from imposing the opposite position.  First of all, as I stated at the beginning, current laws ARE equal and to the degree that they limit individual freedom, they do so equally for all citizens.  Second, there are more values to protect than just equality and freedom… such as social order and public morality.  If the only objectives worth using federal power to impose were equality and individual freedom, then of course ALL laws would be illegal, because EVERY law is a violation of freedom and equality to some degree (to those who want to violate it).  For example, laws against murder (to use an extremely trivial example) limits the freedom of individuals who like to kill and certainly doesn’t treat murders equally (that’s why they end up on death row).  Marriage laws don’t exist for the purpose of "equality" and "freedom"; they exist because they represent the most perfect structure known to man to further social order and stability.  Expanding the definition to include same-sex marriages not only trivializes the historic understanding of marriage, it will have the effect of reducing the general culture commitment to marriage as a value in itself that transcends the happiness of the individuals involved. > The alternative of offering "civil unions" as a substitute for marriage is > not a solution. It is like promising equality in education through a systemf segregated schools.

I agree, it is not a solution.  It is a cowardly position equivalent to making blacks 3/5 of a person.  You are either in favor of equality for gay relationships or your are not, which means full marriage or nothing; there can be no compromise (John Kerry, are you listening?). I am opposed to equality for gay couples, who should have the same rights as any other unmarried arrangement of individuals.  Note however that that does not mean that I am opposed to equality for gay INDIVIDUALS, who already have the right to take advantage of the privileges of marriage.  Gay individuals have no right to demand that society change its definition of marriage simply to accomodate their chioce of partners when they have the option available to them to choose a partner of the opposite sex just like everyone else.  This is true in every other situation.  Take school vouchers for example. Liberals claim that equal protection is not violated when the govt refuses to fund private schools for student who don’t choose the officially sanctioned government (i.e. "public") school.  Even if the student claims the option of public school is not acceptable, the govt can legitimately discriminate against that choice on … read more »

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -"David Koski" <david.nosp…@KosmosIsland.com> writes: > On Sat, 06 Mar 2004 04:20:10 +0000, Bill in Co. wrote: > > Dr. Di wrote: > >> On Sat, 06 Mar 2004 03:23:35 +0000, Bill in Co. wrote: > >>> Hey Diana – I hope I didn’t embarrass you that other time with the > >>> dear bit – I was just playing around, ok? > >> Not at all, it was ‘cute’… You know what I recently learned here > >> Bill? The left is hardly ever right.. > Heh, I’ll remember that. > >>So stand by for many more bombastic > >> comments in the name of equality and Gay ‘marriage’! > > The real irony is here is that despite all the rhetoric we hear in here > > (and sometimes in RL), I think there is more of a balance than we think > > there is, but it takes some GUTS to stand up against the PC crowd.   > > And the sad fact is, most people don’t have that degree of courage and > > fortitude – to go against the prevailing (current mantra) PC winds.   > > God help you if you say Johnny is deaf or blind!    You might be sued, > > for defamation of his character!     The whole thing is pure bullshit, > > created by a bunch of liberal spineless wimps. > And I wonder how many lurkers like myself are out here applauding you.

And another one who believes taking a majority position opposing civil rights is a sign of guts?  Yikes.  

Response:

On Sat, 06 Mar 2004 04:20:10 +0000, Bill in Co. wrote: > Dr. Di wrote: >> On Sat, 06 Mar 2004 03:23:35 +0000, Bill in Co. wrote: >>> Hey Diana – I hope I didn’t embarrass you that other time with the >>> dear bit – I was just playing around, ok? >> Not at all, it was ‘cute’… You know what I recently learned here >> Bill? The left is hardly ever right..

Heh, I’ll remember that. >>So stand by for many more bombastic >> comments in the name of equality and Gay ‘marriage’! > The real irony is here is that despite all the rhetoric we hear in here > (and sometimes in RL), I think there is more of a balance than we think > there is, but it takes some GUTS to stand up against the PC crowd.   > And the sad fact is, most people don’t have that degree of courage and > fortitude – to go against the prevailing (current mantra) PC winds.   > God help you if you say Johnny is deaf or blind!    You might be sued, > for defamation of his character!     The whole thing is pure bullshit, > created by a bunch of liberal spineless wimps.

And I wonder how many lurkers like myself are out here applauding you. david

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -David Bloom <Da…@Bloom.com.zz> writes: > Bill in Co. wrote: > > Peacenik wrote: > > > "Bill in Co." <surly_curmudg…@earthlink.net> wrote in message > > > news:Et82c.20771$yZ1.3159@newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.net… > > >> Dr. Di wrote: > > >>> On Fri, 05 Mar 2004 13:13:49 -0800, Dane wrote: (in part) > > >>>> The alternative of offering "civil unions" as a substitute for marriage > > >>>> is not a solution. It is like promising equality in education through a > > >>>> system of segregated schools. > > >>> Who promised you and anyone else equality? Woman aren’t equal to Men, Dogs > > >>> are not equal to Cats, but inequality, inferiority, and discrimination > > >>> aren’t necessarily related. In the case of ‘marriage’ two Men, or two > > >>> Women, don’t equal one Man and one Woman.. > > >>> Your point of equality in schools is a bad one, we strived for equality > > >>> and ended up with a school system where teachers can’t teach, students > > >>> don’t care, and the entire country suffered as a result of this social > > >>> engineering experiment designed to ‘enforce’ equality.. > > >>> You’re not my equal, and I’m not yours, but neither of us are any better > > >>> or worse than the other.. We’re just different.. Personally I have no wish > > >>> to be equal to a Man, as I enjoy being different than a Man, and no one > > >>> ever held me back because of those differences. > > >> Go get em, Diana!!       Sometimes I think we’re in the minority in > > here. > > > If opponents of freedom and equal rights are in the minority, that is indeed > > > a good thing. > > I see.  Does that also include supporters of AA (Affirmative Action), which is > > often nothing more than ARD (Affirmative Reverse Discrimination) these days, in > > disguise? > Affirmative Action is not a fundamental right of man, marriage is. > Affirmative Action was created to equal the balance of injustice > brought about by the Jim Crow laws that your lot seek to reenact > with DOMA and the Marriage Ban Amendment. Who is George > Bush trying to protect marriage from, other citizens?

Maybe people who are against gay marriage are somehow afraid there will be no one left to marry them because all the good prospects will marry someone of the same sex? I don’t know; you gotta wonder what their bug is about this. Especially those who pat themselves on the back for taking a "minority" opinion (when in fact, opposition to this particular civil right seems, unfortunately, to be a _majority_ opinion)!

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -billbai…@carolina.rr.com (Bill Bailey) writes: > <snip> > > But never before has the Constitution been amended to restrict fundamental > > civil rights and defy our deeply rooted national commitment to individual > > liberty. Prohibition – this country’s last foray into using the Constitution > > to define morality – was noted more for how it was breached than how it was > > observed. And, it was notoriously short-lived. > This depends on what you understand to be a fundamental civil right, > which is of course at the heart of the whole debate.  For example, the > 13th Amendment abolished slavery.  From the point of view of > abolitionists, this was an expansion of individual freedom.  To > slave-owners and racists, this was a radical restriction of > fundamental property rights.  It all depends on whether you believe > black people are legal "persons".  Of course, everyone agrees with the > 13th Amendment now, but I think it is fair to say that abolishing > slavery constitutes an amendment defining morality. > Secondly, everyone already has the same civil right to get married. > Current marriage laws do not prohibit gays from getting married. > There is no discrimination.

This is true only if you word things very carefully. You, for example (assuming you are unmarried) have the civil right to marry my sister if she consents.  Jenna Bush by contrast, does not have that right, simply because Jenna Bush is a woman. Thus, discrimination.  Differential rights with respect to marrying my sister. > All consenting adults have an equal right > to marry someone of the opposite sex.

That is sort of like saying "only whites are allowed to become doctors" and then claiming that isn’t discrimination because "all adults have the right to some job." There is clearly uneqal treatment with respect to marrying a woman. Half the population has the right to do that (with her consent) and the other half does not.  Similar differential treatment obviously exists with respect to marrying a man.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Bill in Co. wrote: > Peacenik wrote: > > "Bill in Co." <surly_curmudg…@earthlink.net> wrote in message > > news:Et82c.20771$yZ1.3159@newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.net… > >> Dr. Di wrote: > >>> On Fri, 05 Mar 2004 13:13:49 -0800, Dane wrote: (in part) > >>>> The alternative of offering "civil unions" as a substitute for marriage > >>>> is not a solution. It is like promising equality in education through a > >>>> system of segregated schools. > >>> Who promised you and anyone else equality? Woman aren’t equal to Men, Dogs > >>> are not equal to Cats, but inequality, inferiority, and discrimination > >>> aren’t necessarily related. In the case of ‘marriage’ two Men, or two > >>> Women, don’t equal one Man and one Woman.. > >>> Your point of equality in schools is a bad one, we strived for equality > >>> and ended up with a school system where teachers can’t teach, students > >>> don’t care, and the entire country suffered as a result of this social > >>> engineering experiment designed to ‘enforce’ equality.. > >>> You’re not my equal, and I’m not yours, but neither of us are any better > >>> or worse than the other.. We’re just different.. Personally I have no wish > >>> to be equal to a Man, as I enjoy being different than a Man, and no one > >>> ever held me back because of those differences. > >> Go get em, Diana!!       Sometimes I think we’re in the minority in > here. > > If opponents of freedom and equal rights are in the minority, that is indeed > > a good thing. > I see.  Does that also include supporters of AA (Affirmative Action), which is > often nothing more than ARD (Affirmative Reverse Discrimination) these days, in > disguise?

Affirmative Action is not a fundamental right of man, marriage is. Affirmative Action was created to equal the balance of injustice brought about by the Jim Crow laws that your lot seek to reenact with DOMA and the Marriage Ban Amendment. Who is George Bush trying to protect marriage from, other citizens? "I have watched carefully what’s happened in San Francisco, where licenses were being issued even though the law states otherwise, I have consistently stated that I’ll support law to protect marriage between a man and a woman. And obviously these events are influencing my decision. People need to be involved with this decision. Marriage ought to be defined by the people, not by the courts. And I’m watching it carefully." Georgia Bush Feb 18, 2004 So Georgia Bush feels marriage should be decided by the tyranny of the majority. James Madison wrote in Federalist Paper 51: "It is of great importance in a republic not only to guard the society against the oppression of its rulers but to guard one part of the society against the injustice of the other part. If a majority be united by a common interest, the rights of the minority will be insecure."

Response:

A local newspaper article that I thought was apropos: There is growing momentum for Congress to consider an amendment to the U. S. Constitution that would prevent any state from recognizing same-sex marriage. Tampering with the Constitution in this manner is a bad idea that should be rejected at once. The framers of the Constitution knew it was not a perfect document when it was written, and so provided a mechanism to amend it over time. In fact, it was the framers themselves who wrote the first 10 amendments, known collectively as the Bill of Rights. Over our history as a nation, the Constitution has been amended 27 times. These amendments abolished slavery and affirmed voting rights for African Americans and women. But never before has the Constitution been amended to restrict fundamental civil rights and defy our deeply rooted national commitment to individual liberty. Prohibition – this country’s last foray into using the Constitution to define morality – was noted more for how it was breached than how it was observed. And, it was notoriously short-lived. The so-called "marriage amendment" – proposed by Rep. Marilyn Musgrave, R-Colo., and defining marriage as the union of a man and a woman – upsets our historic balance of power between state and federal governments. The Constitution created a unique system of government, balancing the freedom of the states to shape their own laws against the power of the federal government. It has ensured that regulation of marriage, divorce and other family law questions would be decided locally rather than nationally. For example, Washington has permitted interracial marriage since 1868, even though most states at the time barred it. It was nearly a hundred years before the United States Supreme Court, based on fundamental principles of equality, declared those laws unconstitutional. But in the meantime, Washington was free to decide this question locally, based on the views of its own citizens, rather than succumbing either to peer pressure from other states or direct orders from the federal government. The marriage amendment flies in the face of this ideal. It shifts power to the federal government at the expense of local control. Historically, our nation has benefited from the independence of its states, allowing regional and local solutions to problems instead of insisting on one-size-fits-all approaches. In a nation that is increasingly diverse, this preference for local variation is crucial. State sovereignty should be tread upon lightly, and only in the name of promoting equality and individual freedom, not in the name of denying those core values. The alternative of offering "civil unions" as a substitute for marriage is not a solution. It is like promising equality in education through a system of segregated schools. The hard lessons America learned about racial discrimination are instructive in this context. As the U.S. Supreme Court recognized 50 years ago in Brown v. Board of Education, separate cannot be equal. Just as segregated schools could never provide African-American children with truly equal education, civil unions cannot provide gay and lesbian couples the full benefits of marriage. Marriage brings with it more than a thousand federal benefits – from military next-of-kin notification to Social Security survivor’s benefits – in addition to hundreds conferred by state law. Civil union cannot match this; although couples civilly united may receive state benefits, they are denied all the federal benefits and cannot contest their exclusion as discriminatory. More importantly, marriage is a fundamental social institution, with a long history and a unique status. Even if civil union could match the legal status of marriage, it cannot match the social meaning. Long before Brown, the Supreme Court acknowledged the value of being accepted as part of a recognized institution with an established history and reputation, rather than shunted to a specially created facsimile. Given the choice, how many heterosexuals would choose civil union over marriage? The marriage amendment abandons at least three core principles of our nation – individual liberty, equality and state sovereignty. And, it does so in an ill-conceived effort to "protect" traditional marriage by defining it. Marriage will not be undermined by a few states, or all of them for that matter, granting all Americans the right to enjoy this fundamental social institution. That argument was tried and found wanting in the context of interracial marriage; it is a tired argument, wrong then and wrong now. Our traditional values of liberty, equality and state sovereignty would be undermined by using the U.S. Constitution as a dictionary for defining marriage. Our nation’s Constitution is not for such trivial uses as that. Julie Shapiro and Kellye Testy are associate professors in the Seattle University School of Law. Copyright

Need advice , loans & divorce

Question:

My dumb 19 year old step daughter, been married for 1 1/2 years, finds husband in bed with another girl couple of months ago. Wants out of the marriage, divorce. They have bought 2 houses within the last 4 months. Each one is about $45,000. No money down, idiot at the bank loaned the money to them. His parents live in one, nobody in the second one. The second house has 2 mortgages (2nd is $6000 from owner of house).

Don’t understand buying the 2nd house if no one lives there.  Sell both houses, get out of both, DON’T let the parents live there, they can buy the house. Shame that you didn’t teach your daughter how to handle a gun, when she found her husband in bed w. another she could have used it, and NO ONE in arkansas would convict her of anything.

Response:

Like others said; it’s best to talk to a lawyer and weigh the pluses and minuses of your options. Glad u have an appointment; be good if he’s familiar with divorce and bankruptcy law.         Even if bankruptcy clears the debts, it will affect your credit rating for 5 years or so.         There are two routes, Chapter 13, where you keep the properties and 1 large amount a month; and chapter 11 (I believe) where they eliminate your debt (usually) and take and sell the properties in return. If none of the property is wanting to be kept by anyone; you could do a quick sale of the land properties for what’s owed; and return the vehicles for what’s owed. If the truck hadn’t blown an engine, this may be the cleanest way too eliminate quickly and quietly all debt. Maybe the guy could get the name on the loan for the truck changed to his name only.         The banks may even be willing to adopt the properties in return for the debt being cleared, and not quibble too much.         This would mean some cooperation, and agreement to the above between the two. And some phone calls; definitely ask the lawyer about these options. Immediately cancel any phones, credit cards etc that are in both names. Get copies of bills, and phone charges etc. Much of this may not be recoverable; but cover yourself anyway. If anyone wants to keep any of the above; it becomes more complex … quick claim deeds, and good credit ratings will be necessary.                         good luck  -  billbo – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi , My dumb 19 year old step daughter , been married for 1 1/2 years , finds husband in bed with another girl couple of months ago. Wants out of the marriage , divorce. They have bought 2 houses within the last 4 months. Each one is about $45,000. No money down , idiot at the bank loaned the money to them. His parents live in one , nobody in the second one. The second house has 2 mortgages (2nd is $6000 from owner of house). She has about $3,000 of credit card bills & a $900 cell phone bill that husband & his buddies run up. There are 3 vehicles that the 2 purchased that are being financed. A car that the husbands parents drive (parents are paying the loan but still in kids names) , a truck that the husband drives (he`s paying the loan but blew the motor up last week) & a Jeep that she bought 2 months ago (hasn`t made a payment yet). The houses and cars are in both their names , the cc bills & cell phone bill are in her name only. The car insurance is in her name , her husbands name & his parents name. It runs about $600 a month. She is living with us , works for minimum wage at clothing store. Husband has bad credit & makes about $10 an hour at a factory. The loans from the bank were given mostly on her credit. Husband & his parents don`t have good enough credit to get cars or houses in their name. She`s going to talk to a lawyer Monday about the loans & also divorce. Any advice would be greatly appreciated. Family is telling her to file bankruptcy , my wife & I don`t know what to tell her. Thanks from George in Arkansas I hope she is not going to get pregnant from that gentleman. That’s the first thing to be stressed here. The rest is secondary. Secondly, it seems to be a serious mess and definitely one that deserves attention of a bankruptcy lawyer. It seems that there are several factors here: 1) she has no way of paying off debts in her name 2) many assets that she bought on credit are being used by her husband’s relatives and are of no benefit to her 3) it would seem that if she tried to sell assets that are in her name in hope of reducing her debt, the husband and relatives are likely to interfere. So, it seems, that the mess has already been made and you need to take steps to reduce it. Bankruptcy and repossession seems like an easy way out here. Banks will worry about taking the cars and homes away from the relatives, etc. My feeling is that bankruptcy is a faster way to repair the credit issue than trying to pay the loans off. The salespeople who sold these goodies to this young poor couple, knew full well that their ability to pay off the loans was very limited. They sold that stuff nevertheless, wanting to be paid more commissions. So, then, their firms suffering a slight setback due to having to repossess that stuff, would be really a problem of these firm’s doing. So I would not go heavy on trying to make the stepdaughter feel guilty about not paying her debts. She obviously screwed up (duh!), and this should be treated as a life’s lesson. Why did she mess up so badly? i

                  Out of Body. Back in Five Minutes.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – My dumb 19 year old step daughter, been married for 1 1/2 years, finds husband in bed with another girl couple of months ago. Wants out of the marriage, divorce. They have bought 2 houses within the last 4 months. Each one is about $45,000. No money down, idiot at the bank loaned the money to them. His parents live in one, nobody in the second one. The second house has 2 mortgages (2nd is $6000 from owner of house). She has about $3,000 of credit card bills & a $900 cell phone bill that husband & his buddies run up [the cc bills & cell phone bill are in her name only]. There are 3 vehicles that…that are being financed.  A car that the husbands parents drive (parents are paying the loan but still in kids names), a truck that the husband drives (he`s paying the loan but blew the motor up last week) & a Jeep that she bought <snip

This is not your problem… it hers.  However, if you insist on sticking your nose in it: (a) She could contact a local consumer credit counseling service … most communities have a non-profit organization for this need. (b) They need to sell both houses, pay off the debts and divide the balance, if any.  His parents could buy the one they live in, possibly giving them a 2nd mortgage for the equity.  Or he takes the one with the parents and she the other.  The same with the cars. (c)  He should be held liable for 1/2 the CC’s and phone bill… the creditors may be convinced to forbear pending arrnagments. (d)  The cheapest and fastest way is for the parties to reach an agreement upfront which settles their financial affairs.  [Roger]

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi , My dumb 19 year old step daughter , been married for 1 1/2 years , finds husband in bed with another girl couple of months ago. Wants out of the marriage , divorce. They have bought 2 houses within the last 4 months. Each one is about $45,000. No money down , idiot at the bank loaned the money to them. His parents live in one , nobody in the second one. The second house has 2 mortgages (2nd is $6000 from owner of house). She has about $3,000 of credit card bills & a $900 cell phone bill that husband & his buddies run up. There are 3 vehicles that the 2 purchased that are being financed. A car that the husbands parents drive (parents are paying the loan but still in kids names) , a truck that the husband drives (he`s paying the loan but blew the motor up last week) & a Jeep that she bought 2 months ago (hasn`t made a payment yet). The houses and cars are in both their names , the cc bills & cell phone bill are in her name only. The car insurance is in her name , her husbands name & his parents name. It runs about $600 a month. She is living with us , works for minimum wage at clothing store. Husband has bad credit & makes about $10 an hour at a factory. The loans from the bank were given mostly on her credit. Husband & his parents don`t have good enough credit to get cars or houses in their name. She`s going to talk to a lawyer Monday about the loans & also divorce. Any advice would be greatly appreciated. Family is telling her to file bankruptcy , my wife & I don`t know what to tell her. Thanks from George in Arkansas

Not a lawyer. She made the credit decisions, so her credit is on the line.  She is fully responsible for the loans and the mortgage, as is her husnad who is a cosignor, I believe. US bankruptcy laws are a little better (people advised me to move to the US and file bankruptcy (US citizen living overseas) as it was easier.  She needs to talk to a bankruptcy lawyer and a family lawyer.  Might be best to declare bankruptcy and be done with it, but the whole divorce thing makes it a little different. Think there is a "Dummies" book on this. Don’t take the advice of people here (like me). Get competent legal counsel if you can afford it.  She needs to get it in her head not to do the same thing again. Rambler

Response:

Hi , My dumb 19 year old step daughter , been married for 1 1/2 years , finds husband in bed with another girl couple of months ago. Wants out of the marriage , divorce. They have bought 2 houses within the last 4 months. Each one is about $45,000. No money down , idiot at the bank loaned the money to them. His parents live in one , nobody in the second one. The second house has 2 mortgages (2nd is $6000 from owner of house). She has about $3,000 of credit card bills & a $900 cell phone bill that husband & his buddies run up. There are 3 vehicles that the 2 purchased that are being financed. A car that the husbands parents drive (parents are paying the loan but still in kids names) , a truck that the husband drives (he`s paying the loan but blew the motor up last week) & a Jeep that she bought 2 months ago (hasn`t made a payment yet). The houses and cars are in both their names , the cc bills & cell phone bill are in her name only. The car insurance is in her name , her husbands name & his parents name. It runs about $600 a month. She is living with us , works for minimum wage at clothing store. Husband has bad credit & makes about $10 an hour at a factory. The loans from the bank were given mostly on her credit. Husband & his parents don`t have good enough credit to get cars or houses in their name. She`s going to talk to a lawyer Monday about the loans & also divorce. Any advice would be greatly appreciated. Family is telling her to file bankruptcy , my wife & I don`t know what to tell her. Thanks from George in Arkansas

Response:

Some advice

Question:

This stuff is simplistic crap. bogey – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – ===        needs of spouses: == This came from an article on the causes/prevention of adultery. This "needs" list is not perfect; but is a good primer. full article here: http://www.probe.org/docs/adultery.html ==== part of article: == Preventing Adultery: Her Needs How can a couple prevent adultery? Dr. Willard Harley in his book His Needs, Her Needs: Building an Affair-Proof Marriage provides some answers. He has found that marriages that fail to meet a spouse’s needs are more vulnerable to an extramarital affair. Often the failure of men and women to meet each other’s needs is due to a lack of knowledge rather than a selfish unwillingness to be considerate. Meeting these needs is critically important because in marriages that fail to meet needs, it is striking and alarming how consistently married people seek to satisfy their unmet needs through an extramarital affair. If any of a spouse’s five basic needs goes unmet, that spouse becomes vulnerable to the temptation of an affair. First, let’s look at the five needs of a wife. The first need is for affection. To most women affection symbolizes security, protection, comfort, and approval. When a husband shows his wife affection, he sends the following messages: (1) I’ll take care of you and protect you; (2) I’m concerned about the problems you face, and I am with you; (3) I think you’ve done a good job, and I’m so proud of you. Men need to understand how strongly women need these affirmations. For the typical wife, there can hardly be enough of them. A hug can communicate all of the affirmations of the previous paragraph. But, affection can be shown in many ways such as: kisses, cards, flowers, dinners out, opening the car door, holding hands, walks after dinner, back rubs, phone calls–there are a thousand ways to say "I love you."  From a woman’s point of view, affection is the essential cement of her relationship with a man. The second need is conversation. Wives need their husbands to talk to them and to listen to them; they need lots of two-way conversation. In their dating life prior to marriage, most couples spent time showing each other affection and talking. This shouldn’t be dropped after the wedding. When two people get married, each partner has a right to expect the same loving care and attention that prevailed during courtship to continue after the wedding. The man who takes time to talk to a woman will have an inside track to her heart. The third need is honesty and openness. A wife needs to trust her husband totally. A sense of security is the common thread woven through all of a woman’s five basic needs. If a husband does not keep up honest and open communication with his wife, he undermines her trust and eventually destroys her security. To feel secure, a wife must trust her husband to give her accurate information about his past, the present, and the future. If she can’t trust the signals he sends, she has no foundation on which to build a solid relationship. Instead of adjusting to him, she always feels off balance; instead of growing toward him, she grows away from him. Financial commitment is a fourth need a wife experiences. She needs enough money to live comfortably: she needs financial support. No matter how successful a career a woman might have, she usually wants her husband to earn enough money to allow her to feel supported and to feel cared for. The fifth need is family commitment. A wife needs her husband to be a good father and have a family commitment. The vast majority of women who get married have a powerful instinct to create a home and have children. Above all, wives want their husbands to take a leadership role in the family and to commit themselves to the moral and educational development of their children. Preventing Adultery: His Needs Now, let’s look at the five needs husbands have. The first is sexual fulfillment. The typical wife doesn’t understand her husband’s deep need for sex anymore than the typical husband understands his wife’s deep need for affection. But these two ingredients can work very closely together in a happy, fulfilled marriage. Sex can come naturally and often, if there is enough affection. The second need for a man is recreational companionship. He needs her to be his playmate. It is not uncommon for women, when they are single, to join men in pursuing their interests. They find themselves hunting, fishing, playing football, and watching sports and movies they would never have chosen on their own. After marriage wives often try to interest their husbands in activities more to their own liking. If their attempts fail, they may encourage their husbands to continue their recreational activities without them. But this option is very dangerous to a marriage, because men place surprising importance on having their wives as recreational companions. Among the five basic male needs, spending recreational time with his wife is second only to sex for the typical husband. A husband’s third need is an attractive spouse. A man needs a wife who looks good to him. Dr. Harley states that in sexual relationships most men find it nearly impossible to appreciate a woman for her inner qualities alone–there must be more. A man’s need for physical attractiveness in a mate is profound. The fourth need for a man is domestic support. He needs peace and quiet. So deep is a husband’s need for domestic support from his wife that he often fantasizes about how she will greet him lovingly and pleasantly at the door, about well-behaved children who likewise act glad to see him and welcome him to the comfort of a well-maintained home. The fantasy continues as his wife urges him to sit down and relax before taking part in a tasty dinner. Later the family goes out for an evening stroll, and he returns to put the children to bed with no hassle or fuss. Then he and his wife relax, talk together, and perhaps watch a little television until they retire at a reasonable hour to love each other. Wives may chuckle at this scenario, but this vision is quite common in the fantasy lives of many men. The male need for his wife to "take care of things"–especially him–is widespread, persistent, and deep. The fifth need is admiration. He needs her to be proud of him. Wives need to learn how to express the admiration they already feel for their husbands instead of pressuring them to greater achievements. Honest admiration is a great motivator for men. When a woman tells a man she thinks he’s wonderful, that inspires him to achieve more. He sees himself capable of handling new responsibilities and perfecting skills far above those of his present level. If any of a spouse’s five basic needs go unmet, that person becomes vulnerable to the temptation of an affair. Therefore, the best way to prevent adultery is to meet the needs of your spouse and make your marriage strong. Nerd: someone on the Dork Side of the Farce.

Response:

rj said for all posterity… The bottom line is that studies have consistently shown that up to 50% of the variablility in individual human behaviour is correlatable (and hence "explained" in at least a statistical sense) to an individual’s genetic inheritance.  And there is *every* reason to suppose that there are in fact behavioral differences (on the average) between men and women that are due *only* to the fact that they are of different genders.  

Just watch the behavioral differences in very young boys and girls.   My son started picking up rocks to throw before he had seen anyone else do it.  He quickly graduated to the level of realizing that sticks were far more interesting.  He brought the good ones home until one corner of my garage was full of them.  This isn’t typical behavior for girls. Casey "I almost had a psychic girlfriend but she left me before we met."                                     – Steven Wright

Response:

Advice – Listen to the people who have been through this already. I’ve been through it and here are some of my thoughts/observations. 1. You do not have a strong stable marriage. If you did, your wife would not be out whoring around. If you believe that all she did was cuddle for three nights I’ve got the swampland in Florida ready to sell you. Your wife screwed this guy and you need to do something about it. If you still want her you need to tell her under what conditions you will continue in the marriage. She has broken your trust and its up to her to earn it back. Tell her she is to have no more contact with this guy – EVER. Tell her that you will be contacting his wife to make sure that she is aware of everything that is happening – this guy may just be a player and your wife may be dumb enough to believe that things are bad in his marriage. Tell her that she screwed up and that she needs to take responsibility for her actions. 2. DO NOT UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES ALLOW THE RELATIONSHIP WITH THIS "FRIEND" TO CONTINUE. There are plenty of books out there that will tell you the steps a cheating spouse takes/has taken when they are justifying the cheating to themselves. My wife started out with a "Friend" and I found out about it. She swore there was nothing going on between them on two separate occasions (when I caught her by intercepting emails/phone calls) and swore that she had stopped talking to him.  Then a couple of weeks later she started screwing him when I was at work or at home with the kids while she was supposedly out with her girlfriend. Boy was I an idiot. If I had known about this message board early on I would have known how to handle the situation a lot better. 3. So your wife went to her parents. My guess is that she’s there planning her escape and she’s enlisting their help with the logistics. She’s telling them that your marriage is not real and has been a sham and that you’ve been distant and uninterested in her for a long time. She may not even tell them about the other guy. Anyway, they’ll stand by their daughter no matter what (as most parents would) and protect her from the real world. 4. How can you ever trust her again? What are you going to do the next time she goes out of town? I thought I could forgive my wife. I thought I could trust her again. It hasn’t happened yet and I don’t know if it ever will. Anyway, good luck to you! I hope it works out the way you want it to.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Okay, I realize that life could be alot worse but I need some advice, and I thought the experience here might be a good place to look.  I am afraid to talk to family and (mutual) friends because once you unleash gossip there is no turning back.  I tried to keep it brief but my post is very long. I’m 28, wife is 27.  My wife went away on a work related trip (to the other side of the country).  While away, she told me on the phone she had met a guy "Sj" (33 and also married) and become really goods friends (no problem).  When she returned, she stayed in touch with him (he lives on the other side of the country) via email.  Constantly. After a couple of weeks it became obvious to me that she was preoccupied/obsessed with talking to him.  Always on the internet and trying to hide it.  I tried to tell her, without putting too much pressure on, I was worried because it looked like something was going on.  She made me feel awful for suggesting it.  Then when I found out he was calling her sometimes during the day when I was at work, she at first lied to try and cover it up, then admitted it.  She assured me they were only good friends, and so I never asked that she stop talking to him or even lay off. Then, a week ago (about a month into the whole thing) she forwarded me some pictures a girlfriend of hers sent her.  She also (accidentally) forwarded a long letter & response between her and her friend, which revealed, essentially: – my wife and Sj had developed very strong feelings for one another during the trip, and the feelings got much stronger during the emailing and phone calls after the trip. – Sj had told my wife that he was allowing his rocky marriage to get worse over these feelings. – While away on the trip she and Sj had slept together 3 nights. It turned out that this letter was somewhere in the middle of email exchanges, and that "slept" meant just that – they shared a tent to cuddle, but didn’t have sex or do anything physical.  But for 2 hours, before I confronted my wife, I thought everything was over.  I know I was never meant to look into that window, but it was in my mailbox and I thought it was for me. I only found out the whole truth by a fluke.  If my wife had told me right away what happened, it would be a different story.  But I feel like she just went on with this and allowed it escalate right in front of me, even although or marriage might have suffered and I tried to tell her it was hurting me.  Now I am very hurt over many things, least of which happened while they were together: – Sj is married and his wife is in the total dark – yet my wife still thinks he’s a hero. – Even after everything blew up, my wife was reluctant to stop communicating with Sj because she was worried about hurting him. – She tried to tell me that she thought they could be friends and everything would be fine (how??? it required lying to me and damaging our marriage). – At one point she tried to tell me she didn’t do anything wrong; so I am worried this will happen again and go further next time. We have a very strong relationship, and my wife assures me that she doesn’t want to jeopardize it.  I know these things happen for a reason, but this really came at me from the blue.  I understand it is natural to have feelings for other people, but when you’re married you have to draw a line somewhere.  My wife would be crushed if I did this. A couple of days after this blew up she went to visit her parents in a different city.  My dilemma is this: do I tell my wife now why I am hurt and exactly why – get it all out?  Or do I just try and deal with it myself and let it pass?  I am afriad of lashing out at her over this, because I don’t want to torture her or have her resent me in the future. However, I am also scared that if I don’t tell her the truth about how I feel, it will fester and I will resent her. Thanks.

Response:

Guys… and in particular, Bogey… For whatever it’s worth (not much, actually), I’m weighing in on Rambler’s side of this debate.  The reason is because for the last

Do we have to have sides ?  Doing so is not being very open-minded. sort…).  Instead, I mean books written by *real* academics , who have real credentials, and who do real science..

Well I think I’m a real academic and I think that gives me some personal experience of the rubbish we all write. What’s this "real science" stuff ? "Real science" is no more real or valid than any other argument.  We are deceived if we believe it is – where is the basis for thinking it is ?  If I can compute chess games in their entirety does it tell me anything about the world ? In particular, I’d direct anyone with an interest in this stuff to the books that Steven Pinker has written (for the general public) on cognitive science.  Pinker is Professor of Psychology and Director of the Center for Cognitive Neuroscience at MIT.  He recently showed up

Does the university for whom one works determine the validity of one’s arguments ?  I used to hold MIT in awe until I worked with academics there and some of my illusions were shattered. Have you taken account of the processes by which academic success is achieved (I am a successful academic). in paperback, is called "How the Mind Works".  The material in *that*

The title itself implies a world view I reject.  Who can prove causality to me ?  Where are the mechanisms by which it operates. If there were such mechanisms how could we describe them (which is logically impossible).  Real science has not answered questions like this and cannot.  To view the mind as engineering is to devalue it. The bottom line is that studies have consistently shown that up to 50% of the variablility in individual human behaviour is correlatable (and hence "explained" in at least a statistical sense) to an individual’s genetic inheritance.  And there is *every* reason to suppose that there are in fact behavioral differences (on the average) between men and women that are due *only* to the fact that they are of different genders.  

And can you show that this is more than the limitations of the model ?  Of course doing so is not possible. My experience of your arguments is that they have often led to eugenics and prejudice.  This is not the same as saying those things are a consequence of your arguments (but they may be – I think your model has a kind of coarse causality in it). The point is you are using a model to argue about itself and even as early as the 1950’s the logicians (Goedel, Frege, Russell, Wittgenstein) showed how that led to absurdities.  Our models for reality produce reproducible results (sometimes) but those results are very coarse, the models are self-reinforcing (even self-generating) and we have no way to know what lies outside their coarsity.  They produce and justify their own conclusions.  This in fact takes us nowhere and if that were not true science would be all solved by now. Now that this is not to say that we are *determined* by our genes. After all, that *other* 50% of behavior has got to be attributed to environment and to individual experience.  Also, this is not to say that the average behavioural differences between men and women are an "either-or" or a "black and white" sort of thing.  That’s not the case, either.  Behaviour is a very complex thing… it’s "quantitative", like height or weight, rather than "Mendelian" like the color of your eyes.   But anyhow, Bogey….  If you want to argue that there are no innate differences between men and women…. well, I’d suggest that you read one or two of Pinker’s books.  And then go argue with *him*.

Why ?  I think behavioural views are dangerous and limiting. They suggest we fit in easily described boxes and follow easily described rules.  This is counter to my daily life experience. There is no value for me in arguing with someone in that way. bogey

Response:

 … do I tell my wife now why I am hurt and exactly why – get it all out? Yes.

Agree (love your to-the-point response yoober  ; ) …. To add and support the excellent responses and points made by all. Some things you may run into – 1) Something is wrong! – Impressed she announced meeting him, and acted like it was an innocent friend thing (maybe there is hope for your marriage) – But, as you yourself stated, why would she then hide emails and phone calls  etc.         Any hidden acts, and outright lies especially, points to something wrong — She knew it (otherwise she wouldn’t hide it!). And u knew it. There should never be anything hidden in a marriage – 2) She will probably point back to something that was lacking in the marriage – often pointing to you as unfulfilling in some way.         Under the circumstances, this is an attempt to justify her acts — not to fix the marriage. This will also distract the discussion away from what she did wrong to what u did wrong. There may be problems in the marriage – but it never justifies deception, nor justifies acts that make matters worse for the relationship.         U must keep the two of these issues separate. They are separate issues – though one may lead to the other – the wrong of one is never justified by the wrong of another (and your wrong may just be being tired after work!). You will also find useful the list of the needs of each partner (listed below). As much as she may be feeling a lack, u may also be feeling a lack – but just not being selfish about it.         Remember – pointing the finger at the other about the lacks in the other, is helpful only in identifying what the lacks are (and un-justifying, the other’s attempts to justify their selfish acts) — After awhile, finger pointing only aids in destroying the marriage. Finger pointing can build walls, not tear them down.         Where as, once the lacks are identified, you can as partners, help each of you feel more at home and happy within the marriage. Under better circumstances, identifying the other’s lacks can be constructive, not destructive. 3) If she is truely not wanting to hurt the marriage – then she will be willing to go to counseling, and talk openly about these things.         If she starts in on, "I need time to think" or separation – oh jeez. Sorry bud … your chances just grew very slim of saving this situation. 4) Be aware that an emotional bond can be just as destructive as a sexual one in an affair. And just because there was no sex, does not mean it was any less of an affair.         She may well believe, in her head, that it was innocent … my ex thought that as well, and she had sex, with some young guy, she figured she could walk away from and trapse back into the marriage, la de da …. it’s bullshit. It’s a myth that it can help a marriage, which some actually believe. – there is nothing innocent about it – affairs result in divorce 65% of the time according to the below article; and tumultuous for the remainder. I hope that u can save your marriage …. divorce is horrible.         We all have limits to human endurance … raising a family, and constant work etc – This works against a long term relationship because we fall into ruts, and things just aren’t that exciting anymore. This often is because of the wear and tear of constant work — Not because the two of you can’t rekindle, grow and be good friends and marriage partners. If both of you can remember why u got married, your family ideals, and all the work that you’ve shared, it will help a lot.                         best of luck   —  billbo ===     needs of spouses: == This came from an article on the causes/prevention of adultery. This "needs" list is not perfect; but is a good primer. full article here: http://www.probe.org/docs/adultery.html ==== part of article: == Preventing Adultery: Her Needs How can a couple prevent adultery? Dr. Willard Harley in his book His Needs, Her Needs: Building an Affair-Proof Marriage provides some answers. He has found that marriages that fail to meet a spouse’s needs are more vulnerable to an extramarital affair. Often the failure of men and women to meet each other’s needs is due to a lack of knowledge rather than a selfish unwillingness to be considerate. Meeting these needs is critically important because in marriages that fail to meet needs, it is striking and alarming how consistently married people seek to satisfy their unmet needs through an extramarital affair. If any of a spouse’s five basic needs goes unmet, that spouse becomes vulnerable to the temptation of an affair. First, let’s look at the five needs of a wife. The first need is for affection. To most women affection symbolizes security, protection, comfort, and approval. When a husband shows his wife affection, he sends the following messages: (1) I’ll take care of you and protect you; (2) I’m concerned about the problems you face, and I am with you; (3) I think you’ve done a good job, and I’m so proud of you. Men need to understand how strongly women need these affirmations. For the typical wife, there can hardly be enough of them. A hug can communicate all of the affirmations of the previous paragraph. But, affection can be shown in many ways such as: kisses, cards, flowers, dinners out, opening the car door, holding hands, walks after dinner, back rubs, phone calls–there are a thousand ways to say "I love you."  From a woman’s point of view, affection is the essential cement of her relationship with a man. The second need is conversation. Wives need their husbands to talk to them and to listen to them; they need lots of two-way conversation. In their dating life prior to marriage, most couples spent time showing each other affection and talking. This shouldn’t be dropped after the wedding. When two people get married, each partner has a right to expect the same loving care and attention that prevailed during courtship to continue after the wedding. The man who takes time to talk to a woman will have an inside track to her heart. The third need is honesty and openness. A wife needs to trust her husband totally. A sense of security is the common thread woven through all of a woman’s five basic needs. If a husband does not keep up honest and open communication with his wife, he undermines her trust and eventually destroys her security. To feel secure, a wife must trust her husband to give her accurate information about his past, the present, and the future. If she can’t trust the signals he sends, she has no foundation on which to build a solid relationship. Instead of adjusting to him, she always feels off balance; instead of growing toward him, she grows away from him. Financial commitment is a fourth need a wife experiences. She needs enough money to live comfortably: she needs financial support. No matter how successful a career a woman might have, she usually wants her husband to earn enough money to allow her to feel supported and to feel cared for. The fifth need is family commitment. A wife needs her husband to be a good father and have a family commitment. The vast majority of women who get married have a powerful instinct to create a home and have children. Above all, wives want their husbands to take a leadership role in the family and to commit themselves to the moral and educational development of their children. Preventing Adultery: His Needs Now, let’s look at the five needs husbands have. The first is sexual fulfillment. The typical wife doesn’t understand her husband’s deep need for sex anymore than the typical husband understands his wife’s deep need for affection. But these two ingredients can work very closely together in a happy, fulfilled marriage. Sex can come naturally and often, if there is enough affection. The second need for a man is recreational companionship. He needs her to be his playmate. It is not uncommon for women, when they are single, to join men in pursuing their interests. They find themselves hunting, fishing, playing football, and watching sports and movies they would never have chosen on their own. After marriage wives often try to interest their husbands in activities more to their own liking. If their attempts fail, they may encourage their husbands to continue their recreational activities without them. But this option is very dangerous to a marriage, because men place surprising importance on having their wives as recreational companions. Among the five basic male needs, spending recreational time with his wife is second only to sex for the typical husband. A husband’s third need is an attractive spouse. A man needs a wife who looks good to him. Dr. Harley states that in sexual relationships most men find it nearly impossible to appreciate a woman for her inner qualities alone–there must be more. A man’s need for physical attractiveness in a mate is profound. The fourth need for a man is domestic support. He needs peace and quiet. So deep is a husband’s need for domestic support from his wife that he often fantasizes about how she will greet him lovingly and pleasantly at the door, about well-behaved children who likewise act glad to see him and welcome him to the comfort of a well-maintained home. The fantasy continues as his wife urges him to sit down and relax before taking part in a tasty dinner. Later the family goes out for an evening stroll, and he returns to put the children to bed with no hassle or fuss. Then he and his wife relax, talk together, and perhaps watch a little television until they retire at a reasonable hour to love each other. Wives may chuckle at this scenario, but this vision is quite common in the fantasy lives of many men. The male need for his wife to "take care of things"–especially him–is widespread, persistent, and deep. The fifth need … read more »

Response:

Ah shucks!    Sometimes I like being in a box….  Don’t steal my box….!

I think we can learn something from our boxes and those of others Bill. Is Schrodinger’s cat in the box with you ? ). Seriously, I think these guys are thinking linearly and their argument is very flawed. There’s a famous thing in ng-folklore – when you don’t have anything to argue better with get personal, and argue in terms of what others say (which can’t be attacked easily because its not there). And anyone who believes the bullshit of academics is a fool (I speak as an academic). But really its just fun and I hope they take it in good spirit. bogey

Response:

<snip The bottom line is that studies have consistently shown that up to 50% of the variablility in individual human behaviour is correlatable (and hence "explained" in at least a statistical sense) to an individual’s genetic inheritance.  And there is *every* reason to suppose that there are in fact behavioral differences (on the average) between men and women that are due *only* to the fact that they are of different genders.  

Agree. We speak in generalities many (most) of the time. This is usually fine, as long as we realize they are generalities based on observable behavior, and there are always exceptions to the rule.         The reasons these generalities (categories or types of human-behavior in this case) work for discussions purposes, is that they are based on observable and correlatable repeated behavior.         There is always someone who will come back and say – "that’s not true because of such and such." Because there is an exception, that still does not unprove the generality stated. Because there is an exception, does not mean there is not an observable behavior pattern.         I often state; "this is a generality, and though there are exceptions, as a whole this holds true" – as a way to avoid the above response during discussions. The differences between men and women are undeniable, and written about to no end; though we do our best to be accepting of them, and even change our behavior to suit. And yes, exceptions to the rule! As a point about this particular thread – I would have to say that I don’t think "hearing what u want to hear" is one of the gender specific tendencies. Which is what bogey remarked on. Though he may not of stated it clearly. "Hearing what u want to hear" is behavior that both men and women do … Are u aware of anything specifically about this that would make it gender specific?                                 —  billbo – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Now that this is not to say that we are *determined* by our genes. After all, that *other* 50% of behavior has got to be attributed to environment and to individual experience.  Also, this is not to say that the average behavioural differences between men and women are an "either-or" or a "black and white" sort of thing.  That’s not the case, either.  Behaviour is a very complex thing… it’s "quantitative", like height or weight, rather than "Mendelian" like the color of your eyes.   But anyhow, Bogey….  If you want to argue that there are no innate differences between men and women…. well, I’d suggest that you read one or two of Pinker’s books.  And then go argue with *him*. Cheers! rj

Me a skeptic? I hope you have proof.

Response:

I have a problem with this.  She doesn’t want to jeopardize your marriage. Then why is she sleeping with another man in a tent and cuddling?  That doesn’t sound like a strong marriage to me.  If I were you I would be furious.  Beyond furious.  I think its ridiculous to say she doesn’t want to jeopardize your marriage but continues to email somebody she has feelings for or knows he has feelings for her.  And she doesn’t want to stop talking to him because she may hurt him?  Screw him.  What about hurting you?  If it hurts you she should stop emailing him ASAP.  That should be more important than hurting this guy she just met rather than you who she is married to. And how can she morally think she has done nothing wrong?  Sleeping with and cuddling another man is a big something wrong to me. Yes.  Talk to her.  Confront her.  Don’t do it in an attacking way but you for sure have to talk to her.  Communication is key to a strong marriage…is it not?  You have to say something otherwise it’ll eat you up. Good luck and keep us posted. .

Response:

Karen said for all posterity… And how can she morally think she has done nothing wrong?  Sleeping with and cuddling another man is a big something wrong to me.

And this is just what she admits to.  I bet a dollar to a donut that more than just cuddling occurred.  That in itself was a huge violation of your marriage. I’d also bet she’s communicating with "her guy" from her parent’s house. Casey "I almost had a psychic girlfriend but she left me before we met."                                     – Steven Wright

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Guys… and in particular, Bogey… For whatever it’s worth (not much, actually), I’m weighing in on Rambler’s side of this debate.  The reason is because for the last Do we have to have sides ?  Doing so is not being very open-minded. sort…).  Instead, I mean books written by *real* academics , who have real credentials, and who do real science.. Well I think I’m a real academic and I think that gives me some personal experience of the rubbish we all write. What’s this "real science" stuff ? "Real science" is no more real or valid than any other argument.  We are deceived if we believe it is – where is the basis for thinking it is ?  If I can compute chess games in their entirety does it tell me anything about the world ? In particular, I’d direct anyone with an interest in this stuff to the books that Steven Pinker has written (for the general public) on cognitive science.  Pinker is Professor of Psychology and Director of the Center for Cognitive Neuroscience at MIT.  He recently showed up Does the university for whom one works determine the validity of one’s arguments ?  I used to hold MIT in awe until I worked with academics there and some of my illusions were shattered. Have you taken account of the processes by which academic success is achieved (I am a successful academic). in paperback, is called "How the Mind Works".  The material in *that* The title itself implies a world view I reject.  Who can prove causality to me ?  Where are the mechanisms by which it operates. If there were such mechanisms how could we describe them (which is logically impossible).  Real science has not answered questions like this and cannot.  To view the mind as engineering is to devalue it. The bottom line is that studies have consistently shown that up to 50% of the variablility in individual human behaviour is correlatable (and hence "explained" in at least a statistical sense) to an individual’s genetic inheritance.  And there is *every* reason to suppose that there are in fact behavioral differences (on the average) between men and women that are due *only* to the fact that they are of different genders. And can you show that this is more than the limitations of the model ?  Of course doing so is not possible. My experience of your arguments is that they have often led to eugenics and prejudice.  This is not the same as saying those things are a consequence of your arguments (but they may be – I think your model has a kind of coarse causality in it). The point is you are using a model to argue about itself and even as early as the 1950’s the logicians (Goedel, Frege, Russell, Wittgenstein) showed how that led to absurdities.  Our models for reality produce reproducible results (sometimes) but those results are very coarse, the models are self-reinforcing (even self-generating) and we have no way to know what lies outside their coarsity.  They produce and justify their own conclusions.  This in fact takes us nowhere and if that were not true science would be all solved by now. Now that this is not to say that we are *determined* by our genes. After all, that *other* 50% of behavior has got to be attributed to environment and to individual experience.  Also, this is not to say that the average behavioural differences between men and women are an "either-or" or a "black and white" sort of thing.  That’s not the case, either.  Behaviour is a very complex thing… it’s "quantitative", like height or weight, rather than "Mendelian" like the color of your eyes. But anyhow, Bogey….  If you want to argue that there are no innate differences between men and women…. well, I’d suggest that you read one or two of Pinker’s books.  And then go argue with *him*. Why ?  I think behavioural views are dangerous and limiting. They suggest we fit in easily described boxes and follow easily described rules.  This is counter to my daily life experience. There is no value for me in arguing with someone in that way. bogey

Ah shucks!    Sometimes I like being in a box….  Don’t steal my box….!

Response:

clinopyroxene said for all posterity… – Sj is married and his wife is in the total dark – yet my wife still thinks he’s a hero. – Even after everything blew up, my wife was reluctant to stop communicating with Sj because she was worried about hurting him. – She tried to tell me that she thought they could be friends and everything would be fine (how??? it required lying to me and damaging our marriage). – At one point she tried to tell me she didn’t do anything wrong; so I am worried this will happen again and go further next time.

She was doing something really wrong and she knows it.  She just wants you to let her off the hook without a big blowup.  Are you sure she’s not communicating with him still?  The first time I found out me ex was doing something very similar, she assured me she wouldn’t talk to him any more.  She confessed later that she kept seeing him – turns out the times I was suspicious after the confrontation were the same days she was seeing him. We have a very strong relationship, and my wife assures me that she doesn’t want to jeopardize it.  

She already did… and it’s not as strong as you think if she could do what she did.  Don’t be too naive.  I was.  I thought my relationship was rock solid and I was in shock that she could even think about doing what she did. A couple of days after this blew up she went to visit her parents in a different city.  My dilemma is this: do I tell my wife now why I am hurt and exactly why – get it all out?  Or do I just try and deal with it myself and let it pass?  

It’s not clear what you’ve told her so far, but this is the time to be completely honest and as blunt as necessary.  Make sure there’s no confusion about how you feel and how wrong she was.  Two things can happen here – she can agree with you, stay away from him, and the two of you can go on.  Or, she can agree with you just to calm you down and keep talking to him anyway because she has feelings for him. I am afriad of lashing out at her over this, because I don’t want to torture her or have her resent me in the future.

Don’t lash out or torture.  Do make sure you tell her exactly how you feel and why.  Establish the rules for your marriage now, not later.   Hopefully you two can recover from this and make sure it doesn’t happen again.  On the other hand, in my case I thought we had done exactly that… and then another guy came along about a month later. Casey "I almost had a psychic girlfriend but she left me before we met."                                     – Steven Wright

Response:

Okay, I realize that life could be alot worse but I need some advice, and I thought the experience here might be a good place to look.  I am

(snip to save bandwidth) However, I am also scared that if I don’t tell her the truth about how I feel, it will fester and I will resent her. Thanks.

clino… It seems to me that your marriage has a *very* serious problem.  If you want to save it (and this may not be possible), then both you *and* your wife have got to begin working on it.  And working on it seriously. I don’t think that I can add materially to the comments that Rambler (and also bogey) have made.  And in general, I agree with them.  Your first course of action is to make your wife understand the gravity of your concern.  And you should both get your butts to a good counsellor.  Failing that, you yourself should seek out counselling. Your marriage is in jeopardy. rj

Response:

(snip of good-natured argument…) I know I have limitations in my thinking. I know I impose such expectations of behaviour on others. But I can’t justify that as being a good thing to do and my hope is that everyone can try to allow others to be whoever they are and not put them in such small mental boxes. bogey

Guys… and in particular, Bogey… For whatever it’s worth (not much, actually), I’m weighing in on Rambler’s side of this debate.  The reason is because for the last several years, just as a matter of personal interest, I’ve done a lot of reading of the for-the-layperson books that have appeared on psychology, and especially the stuff that’s currently out that deals with the recent thinking in cognitive science.  And I do *not* mean the "Men are from Mars, Women are from Venus" drivel by "Dr." John G. (who, I’ve heard, got his diploma from a diploma mill of some sort…).  Instead, I mean books written by *real* academics , who have real credentials, and who do real science.. In particular, I’d direct anyone with an interest in this stuff to the books that Steven Pinker has written (for the general public) on cognitive science.  Pinker is Professor of Psychology and Director of the Center for Cognitive Neuroscience at MIT.  He recently showed up as one of the interviewees on a BBC special that dealt with cognitive science and the differences between men and women.  I’m currently re-reading his latest book, which is called "The Blank Slate".  A previous book of his, which the last time I looked was still available in paperback, is called "How the Mind Works".  The material in *that* book, "How the Mind Works", is particularly germane to this debate. Another fascinating popular book by Pinker is "The Language Instinct". Another book that I’ve just recently gone through (one *not* by Pinker) is "Are we Hardwired?  The Role of Genes in Human Behavior" by Clark and Grunstein.  Clark is Professor Emeritus of Immunology in the Department of Molecular Cell and Developmental Biology at the University of California.  His co-author, Grunstein, is Professor of Biological Chemistry at the UCLA School of Medicine and Molecular Biology Institute. Anyhow, now that I’ve dazzled you with the depth of my research, I’ll proceed to something approaching a "bottom line"…. The bottom line is that studies have consistently shown that up to 50% of the variablility in individual human behaviour is correlatable (and hence "explained" in at least a statistical sense) to an individual’s genetic inheritance.  And there is *every* reason to suppose that there are in fact behavioral differences (on the average) between men and women that are due *only* to the fact that they are of different genders.   Now that this is not to say that we are *determined* by our genes. After all, that *other* 50% of behavior has got to be attributed to environment and to individual experience.  Also, this is not to say that the average behavioural differences between men and women are an "either-or" or a "black and white" sort of thing.  That’s not the case, either.  Behaviour is a very complex thing… it’s "quantitative", like height or weight, rather than "Mendelian" like the color of your eyes.   But anyhow, Bogey….  If you want to argue that there are no innate differences between men and women…. well, I’d suggest that you read one or two of Pinker’s books.  And then go argue with *him*. Cheers! rj

Response:

"clinopyroxene" wrote  "We have a very strong relationship, and my wife assures me that she doesn’t want to jeopardize it." I would respectfully disagree with that statement. She has jeopardized it. It’s time for you to make some very difficult decisions. I would suggest that the two of you get into marriage counseling. Denise

Response:

I *do* disagree with you on the usefulness of views that men behave certain ways and women behave other ways though.  I see such an approach as harmful to both genders because it produces expectations of peoples behaviour and pressure for them to conform.  For example, my 12 yo daughter and I went to see Lord of the Rings and she pointed out to me that the very few female characters were all there in roles supporting men.  Where are the courageous women she said ?  And how does that help her to grow up and be who she is ?

This, I think, is two different things.  It is akin to the actuarial profession I think, or playing chess perhaps is even better.  One thinks many moves ahead, and tries to anticipate the different permutations that one’s opponent can use, and thereby limits the situations where one has to respond ad hoc.  In my view, ad hoc responses are still required and enjoyed, but it seems to be that you are saying it causes people to state that one cannot have an ad hoc move or response, bad stereo types et all. I know I have limitations in my thinking. I know I impose such expectations of behaviour on others. But I can’t justify that as being a good thing to do and my hope is that everyone can try to allow others to be whoever they are and not put them in such small mental boxes.

I think you are coming at it as expecting a certain type of behaviour, where I think I am coming at it as understanding a certain type of behaviour.  I definitely do not think of it as placing a gender in a box and allowing them to only respond in a certain way.  But that might be a defensive statement Rambler

Response:

Its the gender-specificity and gender-war aspects that I question. Clearly what you said is true of any communication. To me it is not a gender-*war* (I’m a lover not a fighter – okay well maybe I am a little bit of both) issue per se.  What I hear you say is that there are not inherently different communication patterns/styles/methods between

The key word for me here is "inherently".  Correct, I don’t think there are inherent differences.  The communication patterns I observe I believe are a) influenced by environment (including bearing children, hormones and all that). b) superficial. The trouble with all this Venus and Mars stuff (which *is* the view you are putting forwards) is what do you do if you don’t fit the mould ?  I don’t want to fit in a mental box, its too small. And even if there are differences it does not justify creating stereotypical boxes. I am not like Jane or Sally or Mary or Sue.  I don’t want to be like them.

You are more comfortable with a different "mental box" ? think, at least for me, if I walk around assuming that my partner is going to be speaking using the same logical thought process that I use, well, something about Ass – U – and Me.

All our logical thought processes are rubbish. They all are very poor models.  I’m pleased the world is richer than them. bogey

Response:

<snip The trouble with all this Venus and Mars stuff (which *is* the view you are putting forwards) is what do you do if you don’t fit the mould ?  I don’t want to fit in a mental box, its too small.

And neither do I, in both senses of the word ‘do.’  I have a distinct Yin and Yang side to my personality.  However, understanding the Yin helps me with contact with other Yin elements. And even if there are differences it does not justify creating stereotypical boxes.

It is strange that you would look at it as a strict box, either Yin *or* Yang. I am not like Jane or Sally or Mary or Sue.  I don’t want to be like them. You are more comfortable with a different "mental box" ?

Yes, I am.  I am not a believer of the fact that we should be amorphous, androgenous emotional beings.  Eventually, say a million years from now, will we get there?  Perhaps.  But we certainly didn’t start that way, and I do not think that it is a societal influence of the past, oh say, 5,000 years.  The mental box that I am ‘comfortable’ with is that, as hopefully a sentient being, I have two ‘compartments’ in my ‘box’ (just for Inky to jump on) – one of which is dominant and I am more in touch with, the other which is there, is beneficial, but is harder for me (at least) to reach. think, at least for me, if I walk around assuming that my partner is going to be speaking using the same logical thought process that I use, well, something about Ass – U – and Me. All our logical thought processes are rubbish. They all are very poor models.  I’m pleased the world is richer than them.

I used a word incorrectly, because your response, to me, is off-track. Instead of logical, I should have used ‘linear.’ Rambler

Response:

Yes, I am.  I am not a believer of the fact that we should be amorphous, androgenous emotional beings.  Eventually, say a million years from now,

Well sitting in the GP’s surgery waiting my turn Germaine Greer was on the radio claiming that we were moving towards a world where reproduction without sex would be the norm. In her words "men are increasingly getting bored with being between a woman’s thighs".  Well, despite the different perspectives you and I are taking on genderism I have to say she is totally out of touch with what its like to be a man. think, at least for me, if I walk around assuming that my partner is going to be speaking using the same logical thought process that I use, well, something about Ass – U – and Me. All our logical thought processes are rubbish. They all are very poor models.  I’m pleased the world is richer than them. I used a word incorrectly, because your response, to me, is off-track. Instead of logical, I should have used ‘linear.’

Is there a correct way to use words ? Rambler – I haven’t noticed your nature being linear. Perhaps your arguments are. only having fun.  no need for defensiveness. I *do* disagree with you on the usefulness of views that men behave certain ways and women behave other ways though.  I see such an approach as harmful to both genders because it produces expectations of peoples behaviour and pressure for them to conform.  For example, my 12 yo daughter and I went to see Lord of the Rings and she pointed out to me that the very few female characters were all there in roles supporting men.  Where are the courageous women she said ?  And how does that help her to grow up and be who she is ? I know I have limitations in my thinking. I know I impose such expectations of behaviour on others. But I can’t justify that as being a good thing to do and my hope is that everyone can try to allow others to be whoever they are and not put them in such small mental boxes. bogey

Response:

I think you probably have a lot more surprises ahead of you.  To fix the marriage will take a committment and active participation from your wife.

Yes. Barring that, you are just counting time until you move to a seperation.

I agree. hear what you want to hear, or potentially not hear the message – that ol’ male/female communication thing.

Rambler – this is biased, stereotyped and simplistic. Who wants to fit in that box you have constructed ? Good luck.  Try alt.support.marriage as an alternate resource.

good one. It seems to me that your wife is not brave enough to admit to you how things are, how she feels. Perhaps she is not brave enough to admit these things to herself.  I think all of us are quite good at putting things we don’t want to look at in a mental box and avoiding looking at them but maybe what things we put there depends on who we are.  Don’t blame your wife for her inability to face her/you/the-truth. Perhaps you have your own mental box for hiding things also. What is absolutely clear is that this is not a minor thing that will blow over.  To have a good relationship from here on you will both need to do serious work together. I’m sorry but I’d place my bets on that not succeeding. But please – the pain of divorce is worse than anyone who hasn’t done it can imagine so take every chance to save your marriage.  I suggest you go to counselling together to work things out. Bogey

Response:

<snip hear what you want to hear, or potentially not hear the message – that ol’ male/female communication thing. Rambler – this is biased, stereotyped and simplistic. Who wants to fit in that box you have constructed ?

Bogey, I don’t know if I agree with that.  Yes, it has been my own personal experience, and, given the market for relationship self-help books, therapy, cousnelling and divorec, it would appear to me that I obviously am not alone in that feeling. But it is not a biased comment per say because, while I didn’t say it in this post, it is an issue in any form of communication – sender vs. receiver.  Additionally, in an emotionally charged situation, one (or at least it pertained to me) is more likely to hear what one wants to hear. Same issue as two people looking at a "red" object.  There is no way that they see the same thing, just through conditioning they call it the same thing and can therefore identify with it. Maybe it is a simplistic approach, and if so I would love to learn how and why, to deepen my own understanding.  It was in no way a judgement on either sex, and if it came across as that way then I apologize.  But, in the female/male dynamic, I do believe that, similar as to how we are all different individually, we are also different genderly.  Neither one being better than the other – just different. <snip What is absolutely clear is that this is not a minor thing that will blow over.  To have a good relationship from here on you will both need to do serious work together. I’m sorry but I’d place my bets on that not succeeding. But please – the pain of divorce is worse than anyone who hasn’t done it can imagine so take every chance to save your marriage.  I suggest you go to counselling together to work things out.

Agree here.  Divorce has been nothing like I imagined it to be, either before it began to happen, or even right after it became self evident.  Many times, it would seem annecdotally, people believe that by swapping out their old partner for a new lifestyle (be that a new partner or a different life) all of their problems and troubles go away.  But they do not.  We carry them along, and we are false to ourselves if we believe otherwise.  Yes, there are exceptions, which I think is the 4A’s (Abuse, Adultry, Abandonment and Addiction), but even within those, I beleive, there is still baggage on our own part that needs to be addressed. Back to the OP, at least to me, marriage is like an investment.  Because one is building a deep emotional and functional relationship with another human being, which by definition takes time, it seems to be absurd to think that one can hop out of it and into something else and not have to go up the learnign curve again.  That, to me, necessitates taking what steps are necessary to try and resolve things. Rambler

Response:

hear what you want to hear, or potentially not hear the message – that ol’ male/female communication thing. Rambler – this is biased, stereotyped and simplistic. Who wants to fit in that box you have constructed ? Bogey, I don’t know if I agree with that.  Yes, it has been my own personal But it is not a biased comment per say because, while I didn’t say it in per se (oops sorry for pedantry).

Thanxs.  I depreciate the korrection. this post, it is an issue in any form of communication – sender vs. why, to deepen my own understanding.  It was in no way a judgement on either sex, and if it came across as that way then I apologize. But, in the Its the gender-specificity and gender-war aspects that I question. Clearly what you said is true of any communication.

To me it is not a gender-*war* (I’m a lover not a fighter – okay well maybe I am a little bit of both) issue per se.  What I hear you say is that there are not inherently different communication patterns/styles/methods between the genders.  I disagree.  I think that the sooner that is acknowledged, the better people will communicate.  We are brought up with the concept of equality, that men and women, boys and girls are the same.  We are not. There is nothing wrong with that, but hte problem (at least as I see it) is that people take the defense of this concept to the extreme.  Since we are supposed to be treated equally and are taught that we are the same, then all process must be the same otherwise discrimination can (and has) set in.  I remember reading decades ago about a study that was released comparing short and long twitch muscle fibers in caucasian and non-caucasian (specifically african-american) men.  It determined that there was a difference, but the study was held for ‘a while’ because of the fear that it would fuel racial discrimination. I am not like Jane or Sally or Mary or Sue.  I don’t want to be like them. I want to understand and be able to share and express, and learn and incorporate, but I do not want to be them. Look at argument styles (have fastly become an expert on that in my own corner of the world.  Men and women argue differently.  Women, from what I have experienced and read, bring in a whole number of topics that are easily managed by a woman but drive a man (especially this man) crazy, simply because I can’t keep up and feel that the conversation drifts all over the place.  According to what I read, this actually results from a physiological difference in the brain, and where the speech centers are (specific for men, less specific for women, and more of them) and the fact that the speech center in a woman is more closely linked to her emotional processers, whereas in a man the thoughts need to jump hemispheres, which in and of itself is a tough task.  That is why woman are more ambidextrous than men (again so I read).  There is nothing wrong with it – in some cases it is superior (and in all the others it is just down right maddening) but I think, at least for me, if I walk around assuming that my partner is going to be speaking using the same logical thought process that I use, well, something about Ass – U – and Me. Now, it all may be just me, and everybody else has had this figured out since day one (which would beg the question of why most people are here then, now wouldn’t it).  Everytime when I pull out this dusty soap box, I think, "Rambler, you may be feeling foolish because maybe it is just you who doesn’t get it and everybody else here does."  Who knows? All I do know is that I spend a good amount of time working on communication with my SO, trying to establish and reinforce patterns that are constructive to the relationship and meet both needs. Rambler

Response:

 … do I tell my wife now why I am hurt and exactly why – get it all out?

Yes.

Response:

hear what you want to hear, or potentially not hear the message – that ol’ male/female communication thing. Rambler – this is biased, stereotyped and simplistic. Who wants to fit in that box you have constructed ? Bogey, I don’t know if I agree with that.  Yes, it has been my own personal But it is not a biased comment per say because, while I didn’t say it in

per se (oops sorry for pedantry). this post, it is an issue in any form of communication – sender vs. why, to deepen my own understanding.  It was in no way a judgement on either sex, and if it came across as that way then I apologize.  But, in the

Its the gender-specificity and gender-war aspects that I question. Clearly what you said is true of any communication. bogey

Response:

Okay, I realize that life could be alot worse but I need some advice, and I thought the experience here might be a good place to look.  I am afraid to talk to family and (mutual) friends because once you unleash gossip there is no turning back.  I tried to keep it brief but my post is very long. I’m 28, wife is 27.  My wife went away on a work related trip (to the other side of the country).  While away, she told me on the phone she had met a guy "Sj" (33 and also married) and become really goods friends (no problem).  When she returned, she stayed in touch with him (he lives on the other side of the country) via email.  Constantly. After a couple of weeks it became obvious to me that she was preoccupied/obsessed with talking to him.  Always on the internet and trying to hide it.  I tried to tell her, without putting too much pressure on, I was worried because it looked like something was going on.  She made me feel awful for suggesting it.  Then when I found out he was calling her sometimes during the day when I was at work, she at first lied to try and cover it up, then admitted it.  She assured me they were only good friends, and so I never asked that she stop talking to him or even lay off. Then, a week ago (about a month into the whole thing) she forwarded me some pictures a girlfriend of hers sent her.  She also (accidentally) forwarded a long letter & response between her and her friend, which revealed, essentially: – my wife and Sj had developed very strong feelings for one another during the trip, and the feelings got much stronger during the emailing and phone calls after the trip. – Sj had told my wife that he was allowing his rocky marriage to get worse over these feelings. – While away on the trip she and Sj had slept together 3 nights. It turned out that this letter was somewhere in the middle of email exchanges, and that "slept" meant just that – they shared a tent to cuddle, but didn’t have sex or do anything physical.  But for 2 hours, before I confronted my wife, I thought everything was over.  I know I was never meant to look into that window, but it was in my mailbox and I thought it was for me. I only found out the whole truth by a fluke.  If my wife had told me right away what happened, it would be a different story.  But I feel like she just went on with this and allowed it escalate right in front of me, even although or marriage might have suffered and I tried to tell her it was hurting me.  Now I am very hurt over many things, least of which happened while they were together: – Sj is married and his wife is in the total dark – yet my wife still thinks he’s a hero. – Even after everything blew up, my wife was reluctant to stop communicating with Sj because she was worried about hurting him. – She tried to tell me that she thought they could be friends and everything would be fine (how??? it required lying to me and damaging our marriage). – At one point she tried to tell me she didn’t do anything wrong; so I am worried this will happen again and go further next time. We have a very strong relationship, and my wife assures me that she doesn’t want to jeopardize it.  I know these things happen for a reason, but this really came at me from the blue.  I understand it is natural to have feelings for other people, but when you’re married you have to draw a line somewhere.  My wife would be crushed if I did this. A couple of days after this blew up she went to visit her parents in a different city.  My dilemma is this: do I tell my wife now why I am hurt and exactly why – get it all out?  Or do I just try and deal with it myself and let it pass?  I am afriad of lashing out at her over this, because I don’t want to torture her or have her resent me in the future. However, I am also scared that if I don’t tell her the truth about how I feel, it will fester and I will resent her. Thanks.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Okay, I realize that life could be alot worse but I need some advice, and I thought the experience here might be a good place to look.  I am afraid to talk to family and (mutual) friends because once you unleash gossip there is no turning back.  I tried to keep it brief but my post is very long. I’m 28, wife is 27.  My wife went away on a work related trip (to the other side of the country).  While away, she told me on the phone she had met a guy "Sj" (33 and also married) and become really goods friends (no problem).  When she returned, she stayed in touch with him (he lives on the other side of the country) via email.  Constantly. After a couple of weeks it became obvious to me that she was preoccupied/obsessed with talking to him.  Always on the internet and trying to hide it.  I tried to tell her, without putting too much pressure on, I was worried because it looked like something was going on.  She made me feel awful for suggesting it.  Then when I found out he was calling her sometimes during the day when I was at work, she at first lied to try and cover it up, then admitted it.  She assured me they were only good friends, and so I never asked that she stop talking to him or even lay off. Then, a week ago (about a month into the whole thing) she forwarded me some pictures a girlfriend of hers sent her.  She also (accidentally) forwarded a long letter & response between her and her friend, which revealed, essentially: – my wife and Sj had developed very strong feelings for one another during the trip, and the feelings got much stronger during the emailing and phone calls after the trip. – Sj had told my wife that he was allowing his rocky marriage to get worse over these feelings. – While away on the trip she and Sj had slept together 3 nights. It turned out that this letter was somewhere in the middle of email exchanges, and that "slept" meant just that – they shared a tent to cuddle, but didn’t have sex or do anything physical.  But for 2 hours, before I confronted my wife, I thought everything was over.  I know I was never meant to look into that window, but it was in my mailbox and I thought it was for me. I only found out the whole truth by a fluke.  If my wife had told me right away what happened, it would be a different story.  But I feel like she just went on with this and allowed it escalate right in front of me, even although or marriage might have suffered and I tried to tell her it was hurting me.  Now I am very hurt over many things, least of which happened while they were together: – Sj is married and his wife is in the total dark – yet my wife still thinks he’s a hero. – Even after everything blew up, my wife was reluctant to stop communicating with Sj because she was worried about hurting him. – She tried to tell me that she thought they could be friends and everything would be fine (how??? it required lying to me and damaging our marriage). – At one point she tried to tell me she didn’t do anything wrong; so I am worried this will happen again and go further next time. We have a very strong relationship, and my wife assures me that she doesn’t want to jeopardize it.  I know these things happen for a reason, but this really came at me from the blue.  I understand it is natural to have feelings for other people, but when you’re married you have to draw a line somewhere.  My wife would be crushed if I did this. A couple of days after this blew up she went to visit her parents in a different city.  My dilemma is this: do I tell my wife now why I am hurt and exactly why – get it all out?  Or do I just try and deal with it myself and let it pass?  I am afriad of lashing out at her over this, because I don’t want to torture her or have her resent me in the future. However, I am also scared that if I don’t tell her the truth about how I feel, it will fester and I will resent her. Thanks.

To me, your wife has broken your trust in her, or jeopardized it.  No, I do not think that she can expect that, after lying, she can remain friends. I think you need to address this with your wife, but I think the tack is a little different.  Most probably, she developed this feeling for somebody else because of what she thought was missing in the marriage, i.e. what type of attention she was not getting from you.  I would start there.  What your ex did was and is wrong, and I can see not really trusting her on that. However, you cannot expect to go back to pre-SJ as that place doesn’t exist anymore, and if it did it was flawed to start out with, otherwise your wife wouldn’t have looked. I think you probably have a lot more surprises ahead of you.  To fix the marriage will take a committment and active participation from your wife. Barring that, you are just counting time until you move to a seperation. She needs to accept responsibility both for her actions and not asking you to provide for her needs.  You need to accept responsibility for not providing for her needs and allow her to take the responsibility for her actions. Also, I hate to say this, but words are cheap for two reasons.  1) She may tell you that she doesn’t want to jeopardize the relationship, but merely be covering up her feelings, because if she didn’t, then she wouldn’t have persisted in this.  2) Regardless of what she tells you, you are going to hear what you want to hear, or potentially not hear the message – that ol’ male/female communication thing. Good luck.  Try alt.support.marriage as an alternate resource. Rambler

Response:

Reconciling to life after divorce

Question:

wrote… "Roger B." … I got you mixed up with Ignoramus… Actually, on second thought, I’m not sure that you could have insulted me more.  Good job. ROFLMAO.  No offense intended. So, I offer my most humble apology.  I hope that in time, you may choose to put aside my indiscretion and forgive me for hurting you in this way.  [Rog']

Sounds like something my ex might have said. Rambler

Response:

Marriage is for people who LIKE getting screwed over.  or are completely clueless. I will NEVER, EVER get married. under ANY circumstances. Marriage only *serves* the government, so that they can tax people. as well as the marriage / divorce industry. for both when you are married and have a family AND when you get divorce. this is BIG business. it is worth BILLIONS and BILLIONS of dollars every year. Actually, I am probably *understating* this MASSIVELY.  for all I know, the marriage / divorce INDUSTRY is the whole BASIS of our economy. of the the whole western world. there is DEFINITALY something insidious behind it all.  man-made or spiritual. I dont know. i just know something is WRONG. desperately wrong. FUCK marriage!   it is all about causing pain and heartache. people have to be PRETTY fuckin stupid to get married. it’s only for the naive and idealistic. Marriage can ONLY cause pain. especially to the children born from the result of fucking. people never learn. FUCK MARRIAGE! Any good that was intended for marriage, has been fucked over by society. I swear, people who marry must be so naive, or they WANT to suffer and lose all of their money and possessions. they WANT to. they must enjoy it. whatever. and btw, I totally agree with this post!  :) – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi All, I like women just fine. I hate being screwed over something rotten. How to reconcile these two things? Well, I decided that one marriage in a lifetime was enough. I felt I’d done my duty to womankind. Frankly, I don’t trust anyone enough any more enough to let them have a knife to my throat as in living together or getting married. I’m not a naive twenty year old any more, and I happen to know I can get screwed over. Strangely enough this policy hasn’t prevented me from having as much female company as I desire over the years. I’ve had some guys lecture me on this policy. And they have remarried on the "you have to trust" principle. And many (not all, but not all yet either!) of them have been screwed over all over again. By the time any of the real suckers have got to marriage number 3 they are really stuffed financially, and can never afford to retire. Hey, it is "horses for courses" and I actually couldn’t give a rats crack what you do. But I have two friends. Fred has never remarried afer the first marriage, but has had many long and satisfying relationships. He is a wealthy guy, and now in a comfortable retirement, and still with plenty of women friends. Joe married 3 times. He is broke, ill, and basically knackered. Three women in the world really hate him. (Funny that. ) He owes too much money to ever stop working. But he is too ill to keep working. Your choice. Ross

Response:

wrote… Um, and I’m in this response, why? ‘cuz I got you mixed up with Ignoramus (who I meant to include). Such a terrible faux pas.  I hang my head in shame.  [Roger]

More lawyers should.   Woops, that wasn’t very nice…  must be slipping…

Response:

wrote… Um, and I’m in this response, why?

‘cuz I got you mixed up with Ignoramus (who I meant to include). Such a terrible faux pas.  I hang my head in shame.  [Roger]

Response:

wrote… Um, and I’m in this response, why? ‘cuz I got you mixed up with Ignoramus (who I meant to include). Such a terrible faux pas.  I hang my head in shame.  [Roger]

Actually, on second thought, I’m not sure that you could have insulted me more.  Good job. Rambler

Response:

wrote… Um, and I’m in this response, why? ‘cuz I got you mixed up with Ignoramus (who I meant to include). Such a terrible faux pas.  I hang my head in shame.  [Roger]

Hey, shit all over me.  Most do, and that’s what I’m basically around for. Rambler

Response:

wrote… "Roger B." … I got you mixed up with Ignoramus… Actually, on second thought, I’m not sure that you could have insulted me more.  Good job.

ROFLMAO.  No offense intended. So, I offer my most humble apology.  I hope that in time, you may choose to put aside my indiscretion and forgive me for hurting you in this way.  [Rog']

Response:

Ignoramus10903 said for all posterity… But then I choose not to skydive, either.  So, perhaps there are limits. I just don’t equate marriage with anything more risky than crossing the street.  [Roger] skydiving is actually relatively safe Roger. I did skydive.

I’m sure you’ve heard the old joke: What’s the difference between a golfer and a skydiver? A golfer goes, <Whack, "Damn". A skydiver goes, "Damn", <Whack. Casey Never assume malice for what stupidity can explain.

Response:

Simple solution. Marry someone earning more than you. Your choices are severely limited but not zero. For most people, living with a partner of the opposite is one of the pleasures of being human. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi All, I like women just fine. I hate being screwed over something rotten. How to reconcile these two things? Well, I decided that one marriage in a lifetime was enough. I felt I’d done my duty to womankind. Frankly, I don’t trust anyone enough any more enough to let them have a knife to my throat as in living together or getting married. I’m not a naive twenty year old any more, and I happen to know I can get screwed over. Strangely enough this policy hasn’t prevented me from having as much female company as I desire over the years. I’ve had some guys lecture me on this policy. And they have remarried on the "you have to trust" principle. And many (not all, but not all yet either!) of them have been screwed over all over again. By the time any of the real suckers have got to marriage number 3 they are really stuffed financially, and can never afford to retire. Hey, it is "horses for courses" and I actually couldn’t give a rats crack what you do. But I have two friends. Fred has never remarried afer the first marriage, but has had many long and satisfying relationships. He is a wealthy guy, and now in a comfortable retirement, and still with plenty of women friends. Joe married 3 times. He is broke, ill, and basically knackered. Three women in the world really hate him. (Funny that. ) He owes too much money to ever stop working. But he is too ill to keep working. Your choice. Ross

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I like women just fine. I hate being screwed over something rotten. How to reconcile these two things? Well, I decided that one marriage in a lifetime was enough. I felt I’d done my duty to womankind. Well, RMD & Rambler, I’ve decided that I can afford 2-5 marriages. Why?  I’m just a wild and crazy guy.  Perhaps I like living on the edge. IMHO, getting screwed over can happen in any walk of life.  A drunk driver can plow into you and leave you a quadroplegic.  Guess what? You’re totally screwed.  I think that our lives are too short to go through it living in fear of the risks inherent in all human endeavor. But then I choose not to skydive, either.  So, perhaps there are limits. I just don’t equate marriage with anything more risky than crossing the street.  [Roger]

Um, and I’m in this response, why? Rambler

Response:

Hi All, I like women just fine. I hate being screwed over something rotten. How to reconcile these two things? Well, I decided that one marriage in a lifetime was enough. I felt I’d done my duty to womankind. Frankly, I don’t trust anyone enough any more enough to let them have a knife to my throat as in living together or getting married. I’m not a naive twenty year old any more, and I happen to know I can get screwed over. Strangely enough this policy hasn’t prevented me from having as much female company as I desire over the years. I’ve had some guys lecture me on this policy. And they have remarried on the "you have to trust" principle. And many (not all, but not all yet either!) of them have been screwed over all over again. By the time any of the real suckers have got to marriage number 3 they are really stuffed financially, and can never afford to retire. Hey, it is "horses for courses" and I actually couldn’t give a rats crack what you do. But I have two friends. Fred has never remarried afer the first marriage, but has had many long and satisfying relationships. He is a wealthy guy, and now in a comfortable retirement, and still with plenty of women friends. Joe married 3 times. He is broke, ill, and basically knackered. Three women in the world really hate him. (Funny that. ) He owes too much money to ever stop working. But he is too ill to keep working. Your choice. Ross

Response:

I like women just fine. I hate being screwed over something rotten. How to reconcile these two things? Well, I decided that one marriage in a lifetime was enough. I felt I’d done my duty to womankind.

Well, RMD & Rambler, I’ve decided that I can afford 2-5 marriages. Why?  I’m just a wild and crazy guy.  Perhaps I like living on the edge. IMHO, getting screwed over can happen in any walk of life.  A drunk driver can plow into you and leave you a quadroplegic.  Guess what? You’re totally screwed.  I think that our lives are too short to go through it living in fear of the risks inherent in all human endeavor. But then I choose not to skydive, either.  So, perhaps there are limits. I just don’t equate marriage with anything more risky than crossing the street.  [Roger]

Response:

Marriage & Divorce

Question:

"Shashay Doofray" <ShashayDoof…@yahoo.com> wrote in message

news:bgf69c$ogr4f$1@ID-177524.news.uni-berlin.de… >> The problem is that people allow themselves to be influenced by others. > Wifes have their single or divorced "girlfriends" who they hang out with – > or co-workers – who bad-mouth men and make comments like "I would NEVER let > a man treat me that way". or "Your husband must think he owns you".  These > are the types of comments that lead to the divorce courts.

My X, she of the boob job, wanting a new car and paying off her mortgage requirements, had a group of female friends who were all either in miserable marriages, going through bitter divorces or divorced. Her sister, for example, is married to a bank manager who regularly has affairs and, on more than one occassion, she has caught him in their martial bed with other women. However, because she has a love of all things material that this man brings her she stays in that loveless, awful relationship. Her closest friend, my X’s that is, only discovered last year that her long-term partner was bi-sexual when she caught him with two very camp men – subsequently she went off and had a gay fling and even started making advances at my X. What a miserable relationship that is. My X regularly, often in my presence, would tell these women how wonderful I was, what a great man I was and how she and I were going to be together for ever and ever. I used to tell her not to do that because it was only building up resentment. About a year ago we had one small row and, when everything came out in the wash, it transpired that my X had been ‘talked to’ by her group of bitter married and/or divorced friends about where our relationship was going, why I was not committing to her, why I had not proposed, etc – all within a year of meeting her. I told my X that these women were simply jealous and, no matter what, they would be intent on destroying any relationships of ‘friends’ that were happy as they enjoyed wallowing in their own misery and wanted more company to join them there. At the time, my X got quite angry as the penny dropped and she realised what was going on. However, I now learn that these bitter, nasty ‘friends’ did not stop their malicious gossip, talk, etc, and, basically, I was in a no win situation. My X stopped talking to me and began listening to the bitter drip drip dripping of her vile ‘friends’. I have to admit to being quite naive about the girlie network and only just discovering that when you go into a relationship with a woman nowadays you have to check out the quality and state of her friend’s relationships, family relationships, etc. Many friends of mine, both male and female, have since told me, since my X and I broke-up, to be very wary of a certain kind of woman when looking for a relationship. Apparently, so I am told, once women get to their early 30s and they ain’t married they simply begin to got bitters and nuts – many female friends have told me this and have told me some shocking stories to go along as evidence. Also, the other group of women I have been told to stay well away from is divorced women in their mid-30s to mid-40s who, although they will deny it totally, are part of the ‘divorced bitter girlie’s club’ and if one of them has any chance of happiness it is guranteed that all the others will gang up to wreck any potential relationship. My X, in one of her last rants at me, told me how she recently went to a works’ ball and how she ‘proudly’ sat at a table with over 20 women "…all in their 30s and 40s who owned their own homes and who didn’t need a man at all!" EVERY SINGLE friend of mine whom I have relayed this conversation to, again both male and female friends of mine, have said EXACTLY the same thing – the reason these women are alone is NOT because they do not need a man but simply because they cannot keep a man! J.

Response:

"Joe Doe" <joeremovespam…@hotmail.com> wrote… > EVERY SINGLE friend of mine whom I have relayed this > conversation to, again both male and female friends of mine, > have said EXACTLY the same thing – the reason these women > are alone is NOT because they do not need a man but simply > because they cannot keep a man!

It is helps you to think so… whatever works for you is okay with me, but weren’t you the one who was dumped? [Rog']

Response:

The reasoning being that such women cannot keep a man – period. Which means they end up destroying their own relationships no matter how perfect because they have a self-destructive streak in them and are surrounded by women with similar such self-destructive streaks. I don’t feel dumped at all. I feel bloody lucky! Incredibly lucky! Lucky to have got away with having lost so little, lucky in seeing the vicious, nasty destructive side of her before I had committed more either financially or in marriage or in both. So, it might work for you, if you yourself are bitter and nasty at whatever happened between you and a partner, to try and bring others down into your own little pool of despair but, for me, I had two dates last week, one more lined up for tonight and another for tomorrow night. Yep, I was confused as to why a seemingly very happy relationship suddenly, within a few weeks, went nasty and vicious. Even now, I still do not know the reason why but… Having had so many male and female friends educate me in the ways of relationships, in the ways of women and the ways of women’s friends in recent weeks I now have a much clearer understanding of what went on. Frankly, I am leaning towards what I have been taught in recent weeks about women to be taught to all teenage men. Dumped? Angry? Nah, not for a minute. Fascinated – yes, definitely! J. "Roger B." <rcblinnRem…@bellsouth.net> wrote in message

news:ZyNWa.12650$rJ4.4029@fe04.atl2.webusenet.com… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> "Joe Doe" <joeremovespam…@hotmail.com> wrote… > > EVERY SINGLE friend of mine whom I have relayed this > > conversation to, again both male and female friends of mine, > > have said EXACTLY the same thing – the reason these women > > are alone is NOT because they do not need a man but simply > > because they cannot keep a man! > It is helps you to think so… whatever works for you is okay > with me, but weren’t you the one who was dumped? [Rog']

Response:

Yes, I agree with you. Having been Mr. Career focussing on my profession I have found myself, in my mid 30s, totally naive as to relationships and women. I would be interested to hear your views though. I am finding this to be quite fascinating. J. "Ignoramus11713" <ignoramus11…@NOSPAM.11713.invalid> wrote in message

news:bggai9$g7a$0@pita.alt.net… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Your understanding of women is somewhat incomplete. Date a little > more. > i

Response:

"Joe Doe" <joeremovespam…@hotmail.com> writes: > "Shashay Doofray" <ShashayDoof…@yahoo.com> wrote in message > news:bgf69c$ogr4f$1@ID-177524.news.uni-berlin.de… > >> The problem is that people allow themselves to be influenced by others. > > Wifes have their single or divorced "girlfriends" who they hang out with – > > or co-workers – who bad-mouth men and make comments like "I would NEVER > let > > a man treat me that way". or "Your husband must think he owns you".  These > > are the types of comments that lead to the divorce courts. > My X, she of the boob job, wanting a new car and paying off her mortgage > requirements, had a group of female friends who were all either in miserable > marriages, going through bitter divorces or divorced. Her sister, for > example, is married to a bank manager who regularly has affairs and, on more > than one occassion, she has caught him in their martial bed with other

I _hate_ it when you catch them in the martial bed.  Was it the full works?  Swords, armor, shields, etc? > snip more of rant about your X’s friends. > Apparently, so I am told, once women get to their early 30s and they ain’t > married they simply begin to got bitters and nuts – many female friends have > told me this and have told me some shocking stories to go along as evidence. > Also, the other group of women I have been told to stay well away from is > divorced women in their mid-30s to mid-40s who, although they will deny it > totally, are part of the ‘divorced bitter girlie’s club’ and if one of them > has any chance of happiness it is guranteed that all the others will gang up > to wreck any potential relationship.

So you are blaming the breakup of your X’s relationship on her friends?? How about blaming it on _her_ attitude (taking her friends more seriously than her S.O.).  Or blaming it on _your_ attitude toward women and their general bitterness.  Or blaming it on whatever the actual problems were. > My X, in one of her last rants at me, told me how she recently went to a > works’ ball and how she ‘proudly’ sat at a table with over 20 women "…all > in their 30s and 40s who owned their own homes and who didn’t need a man at > all!" EVERY SINGLE friend of mine whom I have relayed this conversation to, > again both male and female friends of mine, have said EXACTLY the same > thing – the reason these women are alone is NOT because they do not need a > man but simply because they cannot keep a man!

Why is your X alone.  Because she couldn’t keep you?  Or because she didn’t want you?  Or is she not alone?

Response:

Hello Ryanguy. My opinion. Marriage is an old & honourable institution, designed to give a stable environment for the creation of a family & the upbringing of children. Its idea was created thousands of years ago & has generally speaking served man well.             One thing has changed however. Up to lately,marriage was generally speaking supported by society. The laws supported the institution of marriage. In some countries a man could (and still can) take an action against anyone who interferes with this marriage. Also women who interfered with marriage(had affairs with married men) were shuned by society.This gave protection to both men & women. Things have changed radically. People no longer engage in long courtships .People just jump into bed with one another(more or less). There is no real love for one another.. The man is often just lusting after the womans body. The women often just thinks about what the man can provide her with. I hope I do not offend anyone here. ( I am speaking in general terms & of course about what wrong.I am sure there are many good marriages too). People profit from the breakup of marriages. Ryanguy, I have 2 daughters. I see them looking at the TV shows that come from the USA (sex in the city,Belvery Hills 90310 etc). These shows dont do anything to improve the situation. I dont have the answer.  Just my comments. Best of luck "Ryanguy" <ryann_d…@hotmail.com> wrote in message

news:6b2e850e.0308011555.ce4d414@posting.google.com… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Marriage is for people who LIKE getting screwed over.  or are > completely clueless. > I will NEVER, EVER get married. under ANY circumstances. > Marriage only *serves* the government, so that they can tax people. as > well as the marriage / divorce industry. for both when you are married > and have a family AND when you get divorce. this is BIG business. it > is worth BILLIONS and BILLIONS of dollars every year. > Actually, I am probably *understating* this MASSIVELY.  for all I > know, the marriage / divorce INDUSTRY is the whole BASIS of our > economy. > of the the whole western world. > there is DEFINITALY something insidious behind it all.  man-made or > spiritual. I dont know. i just know something is WRONG. desperately > wrong. > FUCK marriage! > it is all about causing pain and heartache. > people have to be PRETTY fuckin stupid to get married. it’s only for > the naive and idealistic. > Marriage can ONLY cause pain. especially to the children born from the > result of fucking. > people never learn. > FUCK MARRIAGE! > Any good that was intended for marriage, has been fucked over by > society. > I swear, people who marry must be so naive, or they WANT to suffer and > lose all of their money and possessions. they WANT to. they must enjoy > it. > whatever. > and btw, I totally agree with this post!  :)

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Joe Doe wrote: > The reasoning being that such women cannot keep a man – period. Which means > they end up destroying their own relationships no matter how perfect because > they have a self-destructive streak in them and are surrounded by women with > similar such self-destructive streaks. > I don’t feel dumped at all. I feel bloody lucky! Incredibly lucky! Lucky to > have got away with having lost so little, lucky in seeing the vicious, nasty > destructive side of her before I had committed more either financially or in > marriage or in both. > So, it might work for you, if you yourself are bitter and nasty at whatever > happened between you and a partner, to try and bring others down into your > own little pool of despair but, for me, I had two dates last week, one more > lined up for tonight and another for tomorrow night. > Yep, I was confused as to why a seemingly very happy relationship suddenly, > within a few weeks, went nasty and vicious. Even now, I still do not know > the reason why but… Having had so many male and female friends educate me > in the ways of relationships, in the ways of women and the ways of women’s > friends in recent weeks I now have a much clearer understanding of what went > on. Frankly, I am leaning towards what I have been taught in recent weeks > about women to be taught to all teenage men. > Dumped? Angry? Nah, not for a minute. Fascinated – yes, definitely!

Methinks thou doth protest too much.   Who are you trying to convince?   Look inside.

Response:

sid <s…@dontspamme.com> writes: > J. > Check out this link. He makes a point.

If by "makes a point" you actually mean "has a nasty family" or "is anti-semitic," then you are correct.         Doug

Response:

Hey Fool on the Hill, interesting post –  wow, marriage was actually like that at some point in time?  holy fuck, one would never have guess that looking at how things are today.  It’s really pathetic how society seems it destroy marriage today. but whatever. it won’t effect me since I’m not getting married.   I’d definitally pull the plug on crap they show on television. especially shows that promote sex & cheating. I’ve not watched Sex in the City but I know of it.  90210, I’m more familiar with, it was just trash made for teens, but it’s not a big deal since it’s really the mildest of example of trash-tv.  It’s really something though, how society would support those who defend their marriage, to the extreme. I don’t think that is how it should be now, however the way it is now is no good either. but there is nothing you or I can do.   "Fool on the Hill" <g…@night.bye> wrote in message <news:zPEWa.25753$pK2.40361@news.indigo.ie>… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Hello Ryanguy. My opinion. Marriage is an old & honourable institution, > designed to give a stable environment for the creation of a family & the > upbringing of children. Its idea was created thousands of years ago & has > generally speaking served man well. >             One thing has changed however. Up to lately,marriage was > generally speaking supported by society. The laws supported the institution > of marriage. In some countries a man could (and still can) take an action > against anyone who interferes with this marriage. Also women who interfered > with marriage(had affairs with married men) were shuned by society.This gave > protection to both men & women. > Things have changed radically. People no longer engage in long courtships > .People just jump into bed with one another(more or less). There is no real > love for one another.. > The man is often just lusting after the womans body. The women often just > thinks about what the man can provide her with. I hope I do not offend > anyone here. ( I am speaking in general terms & of course about what wrong.I > am sure there are many good marriages too). > People profit from the breakup of marriages. > Ryanguy, I have 2 daughters. I see them looking at the TV shows that come > from the USA (sex in the city,Belvery Hills 90310 etc). These shows dont do > anything to improve the situation. > I dont have the answer.  Just my comments. > Best of luck > "Ryanguy" <ryann_d…@hotmail.com> wrote in message > news:6b2e850e.0308011555.ce4d414@posting.google.com… > > Marriage is for people who LIKE getting screwed over.  or are > > completely clueless. > > I will NEVER, EVER get married. under ANY circumstances. > > Marriage only *serves* the government, so that they can tax people. as > > well as the marriage / divorce industry. for both when you are married > > and have a family AND when you get divorce. this is BIG business. it > > is worth BILLIONS and BILLIONS of dollars every year. > > Actually, I am probably *understating* this MASSIVELY.  for all I > > know, the marriage / divorce INDUSTRY is the whole BASIS of our > > economy. > > of the the whole western world. > > there is DEFINITALY something insidious behind it all.  man-made or > > spiritual. I dont know. i just know something is WRONG. desperately > > wrong. > > FUCK marriage! > > it is all about causing pain and heartache. > > people have to be PRETTY fuckin stupid to get married. it’s only for > > the naive and idealistic. > > Marriage can ONLY cause pain. especially to the children born from the > > result of fucking. > > people never learn. > > FUCK MARRIAGE! > > Any good that was intended for marriage, has been fucked over by > > society. > > I swear, people who marry must be so naive, or they WANT to suffer and > > lose all of their money and possessions. they WANT to. they must enjoy > > it. > > whatever. > > and btw, I totally agree with this post!  :)

Response:

"Joe Doe" <joeremovespam…@hotmail.com> writes: > Dumped? Angry? Nah, not for a minute. Fascinated – yes, definitely!

If you aren’t angry, why do you put your X in the category of "cannot keep a man" when she is actually in the category of "does not want you?"

Response:

J. Check out this link. He makes a point. sid http://www.glennsacks.com/why_i_didnt.htm On Sat, 2 Aug 2003 13:29:51 +0100, "Joe Doe" – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -<joeremovespam…@hotmail.com> wrote: >The reasoning being that such women cannot keep a man – period. Which means >they end up destroying their own relationships no matter how perfect because >they have a self-destructive streak in them and are surrounded by women with >similar such self-destructive streaks. >I don’t feel dumped at all. I feel bloody lucky! Incredibly lucky! Lucky to >have got away with having lost so little, lucky in seeing the vicious, nasty >destructive side of her before I had committed more either financially or in >marriage or in both. >So, it might work for you, if you yourself are bitter and nasty at whatever >happened between you and a partner, to try and bring others down into your >own little pool of despair but, for me, I had two dates last week, one more >lined up for tonight and another for tomorrow night. >Yep, I was confused as to why a seemingly very happy relationship suddenly, >within a few weeks, went nasty and vicious. Even now, I still do not know >the reason why but… Having had so many male and female friends educate me >in the ways of relationships, in the ways of women and the ways of women’s >friends in recent weeks I now have a much clearer understanding of what went >on. Frankly, I am leaning towards what I have been taught in recent weeks >about women to be taught to all teenage men. >Dumped? Angry? Nah, not for a minute. Fascinated – yes, definitely! >J.

Response:

Fool on the Hill <g…@night.bye> wrote in message news:zPEWa.25753$pK2.40361@news.indigo.ie… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Hello Ryanguy. My opinion. Marriage is an old & honourable institution, > designed to give a stable environment for the creation of a family & the > upbringing of children. Its idea was created thousands of years ago & has > generally speaking served man well. >             One thing has changed however. Up to lately,marriage was > generally speaking supported by society. The laws supported the institution > of marriage. In some countries a man could (and still can) take an action > against anyone who interferes with this marriage. Also women who interfered > with marriage(had affairs with married men) were shuned by society.This gave > protection to both men & women. > Things have changed radically. People no longer engage in long courtships > .People just jump into bed with one another(more or less). There is no real > love for one another.. > The man is often just lusting after the womans body. The women often just > thinks about what the man can provide her with. I hope I do not offend > anyone here. ( I am speaking in general terms & of course about what wrong.I > am sure there are many good marriages too). > People profit from the breakup of marriages. > Ryanguy, I have 2 daughters. I see them looking at the TV shows that come > from the USA (sex in the city,Belvery Hills 90310 etc). These shows dont do > anything to improve the situation. > I dont have the answer.  Just my comments. > Best of luck

It’s a pity your daughters don’t have something better to do with their time.  Actually, marriage was designed to trace lineage, for the purposes of land inheritance to determine who would be responsible for taxes on said piece of land. As for your comment about people "jumping into bed with each other" until the church started oppressing the masses with their dogma, that is what people have been doing for about 4 million years.  It is a perfectly natural and healthy activity.  It is only the guilt doled out by organized religion that makes it "bad" and "evil" and "worth going to hell for". The problem is that people allow themselves to be influenced by others. Wifes have their single or divorced "girlfriends" who they hang out with – or co-workers – who bad-mouth men and make comments like "I would NEVER let a man treat me that way".  or "Your husband must think he owns you".  These are the types of comments that lead to the divorce courts.  If women today would dedicate themselves to their husbands (notice I didn’t say FAMILIES) and strive to make their husband’s life happy and joyful in every way, there wouldn’t be the problems or the amount of divorce that there is today.  But of course, that wouldn’t be politically correct, or fashionable and the feminists would never approve. Instead, women are preached that they need to be appreciated, loved, cherished, that they need time to themselves, time to develop their potential, time to "be all they can be", and that the husband must simply understand.  Nobody cares about making the husband happy anymore.  Nobody cares about buiilding his ego by telling him how wonderful  he is on a regular basis.  Today the women are all "me, me, me". Yes, for most people these days marriage sucks. But it doesn’t have to.  As those of us with healthy, wonderful, happy marriages filled with love, and mututal respect know.  It doesn’t have to be. SD

Response:

Marriage is for people who LIKE getting screwed over.  or are completely clueless. I will NEVER, EVER get married. under ANY circumstances. Marriage only *serves* the government, so that they can tax people. as well as the marriage / divorce industry. for both when you are married and have a family AND when you get divorce. this is BIG business. it is worth BILLIONS and BILLIONS of dollars every year. Actually, I am probably *understating* this MASSIVELY.  for all I know, the marriage / divorce INDUSTRY is the whole BASIS of our economy. of the the whole western world. there is DEFINITALY something insidious behind it all.  man-made or spiritual. I dont know. i just know something is WRONG. desperately wrong. FUCK marriage!   it is all about causing pain and heartache. people have to be PRETTY fuckin stupid to get married. it’s only for the naive and idealistic. Marriage can ONLY cause pain. especially to the children born from the result of fucking. people never learn. FUCK MARRIAGE! Any good that was intended for marriage, has been fucked over by society. I swear, people who marry must be so naive, or they WANT to suffer and lose all of their money and possessions. they WANT to. they must enjoy it. whatever. and btw, I totally agree with this post!  :)

Response:

This is for myself, Casey, Rambler, and all the screwed-over-dads. This IS divorce.

Question:

ps – thanx for quoting me (sarcasm?). Stront (who REALLY hates it, when people don’t have the decency to properly quote someone). Sorry, pet peeve.  I’ll be ok.  Deep purple?)…4

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – It was not gender-specific.  Please take a chill pill It is about pain.  Plain, and simple.  If you take offense.  Sorry Maybe YOUR divorce, but you haven’t consulted my ex.  Now there’s a "dad" who not only has his kids, he has his entire retirement intact, the marital home, assets, and pays no alimony.  I was his second marriage/divorce. The first one devastated him, took away his child and left him broke.  Maybe you’ll do better on your next divorce?   (sarcasm, although the facts actually are true).

Response:

ps – thanx for quoting me (sarcasm?). Stront (who REALLY hates it, when people don’t have the decency to properly quote someone). Sorry, pet peeve.  I’ll be ok.  Deep purple?)…4

Were you still drunk when you were making these responses? Rambler

Response:

Strontium said for all posterity… My favorite song, Casey.  Read it, it’s a trip.  This is what one man went through.  It’s so true-to-form.

I’ll have to download it… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Sick of hauling your love around Want to run my train alone But the engine tracks straight through your heart And weighs me like a stone Oh it’s a hard love to love you it takes up all my time Having you so familiar, like past lives and nursery rhymes So I gave away the pictures and your golden ring And the phone calls you sent me and the silver birds that sing Then the man he told me something that really brought me down Your things were blown away, it’s true, but you were still ‘in town’             : The magician left a message, it flashes when I hide Accept the chains of loving Accept the rails, remove yourself from her side Do without her love And I lay back in the speeding train, I keep it by my side I could mail a letter to you, but I still have my pride

It’s a good song about pain.   Kinda strikes a nerve… Casey "It is easier to get older than it is to get wiser."

Response:

It was not gender-specific.  Please take a chill pill

Where can you get these pills?

Response:

It was not gender-specific.  Please take a chill pill It is about pain.  Plain, and simple.  If you take offense.  Sorry

I saw "screwed-over-dads" in the subject line as gender-specific.   Last time i looked, i didn’t have a penis, so i’m not a dad. (AGAIN, sarcasm, although the facts are true)

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Partially.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – ps – thanx for quoting me (sarcasm?). Stront (who REALLY hates it, when people don’t have the decency to properly quote someone). Sorry, pet peeve.  I’ll be ok.  Deep purple?)…4 Were you still drunk when you were making these responses? Rambler

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True, the subject says DADS.  It was a ‘dedication’.  That does not mean it was ’solely’ for such.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – It was not gender-specific.  Please take a chill pill It is about pain.  Plain, and simple.  If you take offense.  Sorry I saw "screwed-over-dads" in the subject line as gender-specific. Last time i looked, i didn’t have a penis, so i’m not a dad. (AGAIN, sarcasm, although the facts are true)

Response:

True, the subject says DADS.  It was a ‘dedication’.  That does not mean it was ’solely’ for such.

ok.  :-)

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Let me know if you can’t find it.  I could DCC it to you, in irc later if you can’t.  I’m going to lunch with a buddy who’s gonna lend me his glasses (binoculars), for the game tomorrow.  Did you know that you guys have 3 not-so-washed-up ex-Astros, on your team?  I really wanted to see Maddux pitch, but he pitched last night.  Ironic.  Going to an Astros game and I get to watch Shane Reynolds pitch for Atlanta.

Strontium said for all posterity… My favorite song, Casey.  Read it, it’s a trip.  This is what one man went through.  It’s so true-to-form. I’ll have to download it…

<snip

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Strontium said for all posterity… Let me know if you can’t find it.  I could DCC it to you, in irc later if you can’t.  

I just got it off Kazaa.   However, sounds like names of Kazaa users are being collected now.  Might not be such a good idea to use it now… I’m going to lunch with a buddy who’s gonna lend me his glasses (binoculars), for the game tomorrow.  Did you know that you guys have 3 not-so-washed-up ex-Astros, on your team?  I really wanted to see Maddux pitch, but he pitched last night.  Ironic.  Going to an Astros game and I get to watch Shane Reynolds pitch for Atlanta.

Thanks for the players… we need them.   Maddux is pitching like himself again.  Good thing for the Braves. Casey "It is easier to get older than it is to get wiser."

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Strontium said for all posterity… Let me know if you can’t find it.  I could DCC it to you, in irc later if you can’t. I just got it off Kazaa.   However, sounds like names of Kazaa users are being collected now.  Might not be such a good idea to use it now…

Yeah.  I just get mine from #mp3_collective in Undernet. I’m going to lunch with a buddy who’s gonna lend me his glasses (binoculars), for the game tomorrow.  Did you know that you guys have 3 not-so-washed-up ex-Astros, on your team?  I really wanted to see Maddux pitch, but he pitched last night.  Ironic.  Going to an Astros game and I get to watch Shane Reynolds pitch for Atlanta. Thanks for the players… we need them.

You can thank Colorado for Hampton and Castillo. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Maddux is pitching like himself again.  Good thing for the Braves. Casey "It is easier to get older than it is to get wiser."

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I just got it off Kazaa.   However, sounds like names of Kazaa users are being collected now.  Might not be such a good idea to use it now…

http://www.msnbc.com/news/907145.asp?0cv=CB20 — Jerry

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Jerry said for all posterity… I just got it off Kazaa.   However, sounds like names of Kazaa users are being collected now.  Might not be such a good idea to use it now… http://www.msnbc.com/news/907145.asp?0cv=CB20

Sheesh. Now we can’t steal music any more.  What’s this world coming to? Casey "It is easier to get older than it is to get wiser."

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Did you see the price on that Canon S330 (ad on that page)?  Pretty good price.  Not sure if they ship to Canada, though I wonder if they will try to infiltrate IRC.  That would be a task, though. There are quite a few networks to choose from )

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I just got it off Kazaa.   However, sounds like names of Kazaa users are being collected now.  Might not be such a good idea to use it now… http://www.msnbc.com/news/907145.asp?0cv=CB20 — Jerry

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Strontium said for all posterity… Let me know if you can’t find it.  I could DCC it to you, in irc later if you can’t. I just got it off Kazaa.   However, sounds like names of Kazaa users are being collected now.  Might not be such a good idea to use it now…

I thought that there was a court case that said that the P2P networks were okay for individual use because it can be used for non-copyright stuff . . . same argument that was made over video cassettes back in the 70’s/80’s(?). Rambler

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It was not gender-specific.  Please take a chill pill It is about pain.  Plain, and simple.  If you take offense.  Sorry I saw "screwed-over-dads" in the subject line as gender-specific. Last time i looked, i didn’t have a penis, so i’m not a dad. (AGAIN, sarcasm, although the facts are true)

this time!  (Actually, SO doesn’t have a penis either, but she claims mine so I guess that’s okay). Rambler – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

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I thought that there was a court case that said that the P2P networks were okay for individual use because it can be used for non-copyright stuff . . . same argument that was made over video cassettes back in the 70’s/80’s(?).

Yes, the introduction of the betamax system by sony brought about the complete collapse of hollywood, movies, and yes, television itself, JUST AS PREDICTED by the music and movie industries…

Response:

Unfortunately, the argument that copyrighted material can be exchanged over a medium that is used for non-copyrighted material is weak. Copyrighted is copyrighted. They could care less.  Try to make a backup of a DVD or a current game.  You will see how important the word ‘copyrighted’ has become, since the 70’s.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Strontium said for all posterity… Let me know if you can’t find it.  I could DCC it to you, in irc later if you can’t. I just got it off Kazaa.   However, sounds like names of Kazaa users are being collected now.  Might not be such a good idea to use it now… I thought that there was a court case that said that the P2P networks were okay for individual use because it can be used for non-copyright stuff . . . same argument that was made over video cassettes back in the 70’s/80’s(?). Rambler

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I miss betamax.  Those HUGE players  Could make a centerpiece out of one hehe. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I thought that there was a court case that said that the P2P networks were okay for individual use because it can be used for non-copyright stuff . . . same argument that was made over video cassettes back in the 70’s/80’s(?). Yes, the introduction of the betamax system by sony brought about the complete collapse of hollywood, movies, and yes, television itself, JUST AS PREDICTED by the music and movie industries…

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – It was not gender-specific.  Please take a chill pill It is about pain.  Plain, and simple.  If you take offense.  Sorry I saw "screwed-over-dads" in the subject line as gender-specific. Last time i looked, i didn’t have a penis, so i’m not a dad. (AGAIN, sarcasm, although the facts are true) this time!  (Actually, SO doesn’t have a penis either, but she claims mine so I guess that’s okay).

Penises are like SOOO cool… I wonder what it’s like to have one.  I could write my name in the snow and all sorts of stuff…  I could pee standing up without it running down my leg…

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 I miss betamax. We still have two of ‘em. Neither one has been plugged in for probably 15 years, but we still have them. Along with every computer we’ve ever owned. <sigh Tracey

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ps – I typed that out, almost two years ago.  I did not copy it, from a website  So, if there are mistakes, let me know ;P – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – My favorite song, Casey.  Read it, it’s a trip.  This is what one man went through.  It’s so true-to-form.   As for the rest:  BOC rocks. Blue Oyster Cult – Shooting Shark Well I’m up there beside the magic man And he laid some tricks for me He said you do need help my friend I whispered, "Obviously" He laid a spread of Jacks and Queens And he begged me take my pick But every face, it had your face I cried out, "I am sick!" Sick of hauling your love around Want to run my train alone But the engine tracks straight through your heart And weighs me like a stone Oh it’s a hard love to love you it takes up all my time Having you so familiar, like past lives and nursery rhymes So I gave away the pictures and your golden ring And the phone calls you sent me and the silver birds that sing Then the man he told me something that really brought me down Your things were blown away, it’s true, but you were still ‘in town’ Sick of hauling your love around Want to run my train alone But the engine tracks straight through your heart And weighs me like a stone Oh it’s a hard love to love you it takes up all my time Having you so familiar, like past lives and nursery rhymes The magician left a message, it flashes when I hide Accept the chains of loving Accept the rails, remove yourself from her side Do without her love And I lay back in the speeding train, I keep it by my side I could mail a letter to you, but I still have my pride Sick of hauling your love around Want to run my train alone But the engine tracks straight through your heart And weighs me like a stone Three times I’ve sent you back from me three times my boat’s gone dry And three times I’ve seen the shooting shark lighting up the sky Oh it’s a hard love to love you babe it takes my breath away The fourth time round is the last time round there’s nothing else to say — —– No one can hear, when you’re screaming in digital. -Queensryche  (From the album "Rage for Order")

Response:

Maybe YOUR divorce, but you haven’t consulted my ex.  Now there’s a "dad" who not only has his kids, he has his entire retirement intact, the marital home, assets, and pays no alimony.  I was his second marriage/divorce.  The first one devastated him, took away his child and left him broke.  Maybe you’ll do better on your next divorce?   (sarcasm, although the facts actually are true).

Response:

It was not gender-specific.  Please take a chill pill It is about pain.  Plain, and simple.  If you take offense.  Sorry

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Maybe YOUR divorce, but you haven’t consulted my ex.  Now there’s a "dad" who not only has his kids, he has his entire retirement intact, the marital home, assets, and pays no alimony.  I was his second marriage/divorce. The first one devastated him, took away his child and left him broke.  Maybe you’ll do better on your next divorce?   (sarcasm, although the facts actually are true).

Response:

My favorite song, Casey.  Read it, it’s a trip.  This is what one man went through.  It’s so true-to-form.   As for the rest:  BOC rocks. Blue Oyster Cult – Shooting Shark Well I’m up there beside the magic man And he laid some tricks for me He said you do need help my friend I whispered, "Obviously" He laid a spread of Jacks and Queens And he begged me take my pick But every face, it had your face I cried out, "I am sick!" Sick of hauling your love around Want to run my train alone But the engine tracks straight through your heart And weighs me like a stone Oh it’s a hard love to love you it takes up all my time Having you so familiar, like past lives and nursery rhymes So I gave away the pictures and your golden ring And the phone calls you sent me and the silver birds that sing Then the man he told me something that really brought me down Your things were blown away, it’s true, but you were still ‘in town’ Sick of hauling your love around Want to run my train alone But the engine tracks straight through your heart And weighs me like a stone Oh it’s a hard love to love you it takes up all my time Having you so familiar, like past lives and nursery rhymes The magician left a message, it flashes when I hide Accept the chains of loving Accept the rails, remove yourself from her side Do without her love And I lay back in the speeding train, I keep it by my side I could mail a letter to you, but I still have my pride Sick of hauling your love around Want to run my train alone But the engine tracks straight through your heart And weighs me like a stone Three times I’ve sent you back from me three times my boat’s gone dry And three times I’ve seen the shooting shark lighting up the sky Oh it’s a hard love to love you babe it takes my breath away The fourth time round is the last time round there’s nothing else to say — —– No one can hear, when you’re screaming in digital. -Queensryche  (From the album "Rage for Order")

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