Marriage Stike

Question:

Lauri wrote: > On 9 Feb 2005 17:44:39 -0800, "Mark" <m-ruff…@northwestern.edu> > wrote: >> I made $100/yr before we were married and for the three years we were >> married I made a $100/yr. She did nothing to contribute to this.

$100/yr?     Holy mackeral!    You’ve even got me beat on that one! !!!ROFLMAO!!! – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->> My wife filed for divorce because I was complaining she was a poor >> roommate. Mostly, she shopped recreationally and worked a $13/hr job. > At $13 an hour, she only needs to work 8 hours to out-earn your > earnings for an entire year’s earning of $100. > Unless you meant something else? > Lauri in WA > I like my email spamless

Response:

"Doug Anderson" <ethelthelogremovet…@yahoo.com> wrote in message

news:36vssbF56s4riU3@individual.net… > "Mark" <m-ruff…@northwestern.edu> writes: > > I made $100/yr before we were married and for the three years we were > > married I made a $100/yr. She did nothing to contribute to this. > How much per hour is $100/year?

Maybe he’s Santa and he only works one night a year.

Response:

Quick responses for $100,000.00 yearly gross approximately error posting. You may expect with an MBA, I would have caught that minor error. Yet the material facts of this situation still hold, so "no women, no cry." Thanks noticing, thanks for posting. Mark

Response:

Bill in Co. wrote: > Lauri wrote: >> On 9 Feb 2005 17:44:39 -0800, "Mark" <m-ruff…@northwestern.edu> >> wrote: >>> I made $100/yr before we were married and for the three years we >>> were married I made a $100/yr. She did nothing to contribute to >>> this. > $100/yr?        You’ve even got me beat on that one! > !!!ROFLMAO!!!

Ahh Bill I haven’t heard that phrase for about 5 years… My grandfather used to say, Holy mackeral!  and I would get such a kick out of it.  Thanks for making me think of him and smile. LoriMc

Response:

what’s a "stike"? if it’s a marital aid, it sounds too pointy.

Response:

DrLith wrote: > "Doug Anderson" <ethelthelogremovet…@yahoo.com> wrote in message > news:36vssbF56s4riU3@individual.net… >> "Mark" <m-ruff…@northwestern.edu> writes: >>> I made $100/yr before we were married and for the three years we were >>> married I made a $100/yr. She did nothing to contribute to this. >> How much per hour is $100/year? > Maybe he’s Santa and he only works one night a year.

No, he was working as an adjunct.

Response:

On 9 Feb 2005 18:30:45 -0800, Mark <m-ruff…@northwestern.edu> wrote: > I made $100/yr before we were married and for the three years we were > married I made a $100/yr. She did nothing to contribute to this. > My wife filed for divorce because I was complaining she was a poor > roommate. Mostly, she shopped recreationally and worked a $13/hr job.

So you chose the wrong woman. > I do not blame my wife or feminists for my losing my son and everything > I earned and saved.

Of course not.  You chose the wrong woman. > Why are family court, attorneys (mostly white men), and others > Anti-father? At the initial divorce hearing, the county family judge, > after a short discussion, without due process of law, issued a court > order reducing and removing my rights. My parenting replaced by an > "award" to visit two of fourteen days (every other weekend); property > held; 55% monthly income garnished for child support and other support.

You chose the wrong woman and had a baby with her. > To add insult to injury, the Violence Against Women Act Former Pres. > Clinton signed in 1990 made it a crime when my wife became "fearful" of > me. This turned immediately into Order of Protection threatening my > freedom with imprisonment just in case I because at irritated by what > was happening to me.

You chose the wrong woman and didn’t use part of that $100/year to retain an attorney to fight the order or protection. > It is as if the attorney’s on both sides have it all scripted for them > to make an easy $150-$300 per hour. > I thought a read in high school government class that debtor’s prison > is unconstitutional, yet when I visit on other court hearings I see > ordinary men imprisoned for child support debt until they pay it in > full. Attorneys say men are imprisoned for not following a court order, > but tell that to his employer. Who wants to keep employed a jailbird?

Sure, people don’t like men who don’t support their kids (even ones who had children with the wrong woman) > Mark > P.S. I am on a marriage strike until this changes. > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marriage_strike

I betcha that has all the women in the world sobbing. -Tony — "If the grass appears to be greener on the other side of the fence, it’s time to fertilize your lawn!" Want to jump start your marriage?  Consider a Marriage Encounter weekend. Check out http://www.wwme.org for more information.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -LoriMc wrote: > Bill in Co. wrote: >> Lauri wrote: >>> On 9 Feb 2005 17:44:39 -0800, "Mark" <m-ruff…@northwestern.edu> >>> wrote: >>>> I made $100/yr before we were married and for the three years we >>>> were married I made a $100/yr. She did nothing to contribute to >>>> this. >> $100/yr?        You’ve even got me beat on that one! >> !!!ROFLMAO!!! > Ahh Bill I haven’t heard that phrase for about 5 years… My grandfather > used to say,  Holy mackeral!  and I would get such a kick out of it. Thanks > for making me think of him and smile. > LoriMc

Sure!    I think I’ll take that as a compliment (even if I am dating myself).

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Bill in Co. wrote: > LoriMc wrote: >> Bill in Co. wrote: >>> Lauri wrote: >>>> On 9 Feb 2005 17:44:39 -0800, "Mark" <m-ruff…@northwestern.edu> >>>> wrote: >>>>> I made $100/yr before we were married and for the three years we >>>>> were married I made a $100/yr. She did nothing to contribute to >>>>> this. >>> $100/yr?   Holy mackeral!   You’ve even got me beat on that one! >>> !!!ROFLMAO!!! >> Ahh Bill I haven’t heard that phrase for about 5 years… My >> grandfather used to say,  Holy mackeral!  and I would get such a >> kick out of it. Thanks for making me think of him and smile. >> LoriMc > Sure!    I think I’ll take that as a compliment (even if I am dating > myself).

Was a huge compliment as Gramps was one of the most special people in my life.  I really miss him. Lori Mc

Response:

On 9 Feb 2005 18:34:54 -0800, "Mark" <m-ruff…@northwestern.edu> wrote: >Quick responses for $100,000.00 yearly gross approximately error >posting. You may expect with an MBA, I would have caught that minor >error. Yet the material facts of this situation still hold, so "no >women, no cry."

And yet here you are, boo-hoo-hooing your little heart out.  And I’m guessing that we’re supposed to be impressed by the supposed $100k per year and the MBA? Lauri in WA I like my email spamless

Response:

He chose the wrong woman, but men chose the wrong women in 1960 without getting ass-raped by Family Court judges.  These women existed in 1960 as they do in 2005, but now the law allows and encourages her to strip her husband of income, property and fatherhood. The problem is women in America, and the American Family Law system. Change the laws and men will marry. >> It is as if the attorney’s on both sides have it all scripted for them >> to make an easy $150-$300 per hour.

Yes.  You have figured it out.  The plaintiff’s attorney and the defendant’s attorney make sure to file enought motions to take as much money as you can afford, so as to enrich themselves.  They also bring in experts to testify, who also are paid handsomely.  It is a game where they draw out the proceedings to take as much of your money as they can. >> I thought a read in high school government class that debtor’s prison >> is unconstitutional, yet when I visit on other court hearings I see >> ordinary men imprisoned for child support debt until they pay it in >> full. Attorneys say men are imprisoned for not following a court order, >> but tell that to his employer. Who wants to keep employed a

jailbird? >Sure, people don’t like men who don’t support their kids…

You are entitled to not like men who cannot pay usurous support judgements, but criminalizing non-payment of debt *is* illegal in the US, and has been for over 100 years. Of course this is end-run by placing the man in contempt of the judges administrative ruling, so he is technically being jailed for non-compliance to a bench order.  See how the law can be subverted?

Response:

His post isn’t worded as an attempt to impress, merely a statement of fact.

Response:

Mark <m-ruff…@northwestern.edu> wrote: > I do not blame my wife or feminists for my losing my son and everything > I earned and saved.

Wrong group.  This is alt.SUPPORT.marraige.  You want alt.WHINE.marriage.

Response:

Tony Miller <t…@cigardiary.com> wrote: > You chose the wrong woman and had a baby with her.

The second half being the worse mistake.

Response:

Subverting the penalty for the support order, and all other civil court orders, of jail or a contempt charge is easy. My concern, however, why is the penalty for marriage placed on men and why is there not a warning label for marriage. Theodore Roosevelt, with Keynesian economics, created jobs to bring our country out of the Great Depression. Our government hired and instructed men to dig a hole, but later hired a separate group to fill up the hole – giving them wages and, maybe, a pat on the back for a job well done. Today our government appears to be creating jobs for the fatherless children they are creating in family court: judges, attorneys, GALS, enforcement, support functions by spending both man’s money to attorneys and wife and federal, state, and county tax dollars. One hope, I believe, for family in America is the Mexicans. They may restore what was lost beginning in the ’60’s by the influx of immigration. Their divorce rate is the lowest in the world and they are, to me, more family orientated. The Honorable Judge Spence of Kane County IL gave about $50k of $65k of my non-marital money to local attorney’s and court experts. If one has little ethical concerns, it is easy to be a successful divorce attorney/expert – just focus on the hidden money, ask the judge for experts, not the kid’s relationship with their father. Mark

Response:

"Lee" <leraconteur2…@yahoo.com> wrote in message

news:1108049001.828901.212870@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com… > He chose the wrong woman, but men chose the wrong women in 1960 without > getting ass-raped by Family Court judges.  These women existed in 1960 > as they do in 2005, but now the law allows and encourages her to strip > her husband of income, property and fatherhood.

He chose poorly, but then again, same can be said for women. > The problem is women in America, and the American Family Law system. > Change the laws and men will marry. >>> It is as if the attorney’s on both sides have it all scripted for > them >>> to make an easy $150-$300 per hour. > Yes.  You have figured it out.  The plaintiff’s attorney and the > defendant’s attorney make sure to file enought motions to take as much > money as you can afford, so as to enrich themselves.  They also bring > in experts to testify, who also are paid handsomely.  It is a game > where they draw out the proceedings to take as much of your money as > they can.

I don’t fully agree with this.  I think you are in control of what your lawyer does / does not do.  I guess where it gets twisted is when the other spouse/lawyer fights it out in court, and you have no alternative but fight back.  While women may hold an upper hand when it comes down to custody issues, and protective orders, I do not think a judge should, or would, screw the man in splitting of the assets unless there is good reason to do so. A Man – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->>> I thought a read in high school government class that debtor’s > prison >>> is unconstitutional, yet when I visit on other court hearings I see >>> ordinary men imprisoned for child support debt until they pay it in >>> full. Attorneys say men are imprisoned for not following a court > order, >>> but tell that to his employer. Who wants to keep employed a > jailbird? >>Sure, people don’t like men who don’t support their kids… > You are entitled to not like men who cannot pay usurous support > judgements, but criminalizing non-payment of debt *is* illegal in the > US, and has been for over 100 years. Of course this is end-run by > placing the man in contempt of the judges administrative ruling, so he > is technically being jailed for non-compliance to a bench order.  See > how the law can be subverted?

Response:

>Why are family court, attorneys (mostly white men), and others >Anti-father? At the initial divorce hearing, the county family judge,

Women will usually not elect women as lawmakers, because women know that only men will be the ones who consistently pass pro-female laws. Men run for elected office to gain status, which in turn will make them more attractive to other women, thereby increasing the ‘possibility’ of more sex partners. Therefore, it all comes down to sex. ——————————————————————– On 9 Feb 2005 17:44:39 -0800, "Mark" <m-ruff…@northwestern.edu> wrote: – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->I made $100/yr before we were married and for the three years we were >married I made a $100/yr. She did nothing to contribute to this. >My wife filed for divorce because I was complaining she was a poor >roommate. Mostly, she shopped recreationally and worked a $13/hr job. >I do not blame my wife or feminists for my losing my son and everything >I earned and saved. >Why are family court, attorneys (mostly white men), and others >Anti-father? At the initial divorce hearing, the county family judge, >after a short discussion, without due process of law, issued a court >order reducing and removing my rights. My parenting replaced by an >"award" to visit two of fourteen days (every other weekend); property >held; 55% monthly income garnished for child support and other support. >To add insult to injury, the Violence Against Women Act Former Pres. >Clinton signed in 1990 made it a crime when my wife became "fearful" of >me. This turned immediately into Order of Protection threatening my >freedom with imprisonment just in case I because at irritated by what >was happening to me. >It is as if the attorney’s on both sides have it all scripted for them >to make an easy $150-$300 per hour. >I thought a read in high school government class that debtor’s prison >is unconstitutional, yet when I visit on other court hearings I see >ordinary men imprisoned for child support debt until they pay it in >full. Attorneys say men are imprisoned for not following a court order, >but tell that to his employer. Who wants to keep employed a jailbird? >Mark >P.S. I am on a marriage strike until this changes. >http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marriage_strike

Response:

"Lauri" <res0r…@spamlessverizon.net> wrote in message

news:1mum0197risig0t42fehjcjnvjuvi2a5b7@4ax.com… > On 9 Feb 2005 18:34:54 -0800, "Mark" <m-ruff…@northwestern.edu> > wrote: > >Quick responses for $100,000.00 yearly gross approximately error > >posting. You may expect with an MBA, I would have caught that minor > >error. Yet the material facts of this situation still hold, so "no > >women, no cry." > And yet here you are, boo-hoo-hooing your little heart out.  And I’m > guessing that we’re supposed to be impressed by the supposed $100k per > year and the MBA?

Well, now, you’ll just *never* find yourself a man with an attitude like that, Little Missy!

Response:

A Man, Your wrong. If you have an email address I can forward the family court orders for your inspection. Mark

Response:

On Thu, 10 Feb 2005 17:56:54 GMT, Emma Anne <emma_a…@mac.com> wrote: > Tony Miller <t…@cigardiary.com> wrote: >> You chose the wrong woman and had a baby with her. > The second half being the worse mistake.

Agreed -Tony — "If the grass appears to be greener on the other side of the fence, it’s time to fertilize your lawn!" Want to jump start your marriage?  Consider a Marriage Encounter weekend. Check out http://www.wwme.org for more information.

Response:

On Thu, 10 Feb 2005 22:19:06 -0500, "DrLith" <drl…@hotmail.com> wrote: – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->"Lauri" <res0r…@spamlessverizon.net> wrote in message >news:1mum0197risig0t42fehjcjnvjuvi2a5b7@4ax.com… >> On 9 Feb 2005 18:34:54 -0800, "Mark" <m-ruff…@northwestern.edu> >> wrote: >> >Quick responses for $100,000.00 yearly gross approximately error >> >posting. You may expect with an MBA, I would have caught that minor >> >error. Yet the material facts of this situation still hold, so "no >> >women, no cry." >> And yet here you are, boo-hoo-hooing your little heart out.  And I’m >> guessing that we’re supposed to be impressed by the supposed $100k per >> year and the MBA? >Well, now, you’ll just *never* find yourself a man with an attitude like >that, Little Missy!

If this guy is representative of what’s out there, I’ll stick with the status quo. Lauri in WA I like my email spamless

Response:

I made $100/yr before we were married and for the three years we were married I made a $100/yr. She did nothing to contribute to this. My wife filed for divorce because I was complaining she was a poor roommate. Mostly, she shopped recreationally and worked a $13/hr job. I do not blame my wife or feminists for my losing my son and everything I earned and saved. Why are family court, attorneys (mostly white men), and others Anti-father? At the initial divorce hearing, the county family judge, after a short discussion, without due process of law, issued a court order reducing and removing my rights. My parenting replaced by an "award" to visit two of fourteen days (every other weekend); property held; 55% monthly income garnished for child support and other support. To add insult to injury, the Violence Against Women Act Former Pres. Clinton signed in 1990 made it a crime when my wife became "fearful" of me. This turned immediately into Order of Protection threatening my freedom with imprisonment just in case I because at irritated by what was happening to me. It is as if the attorney’s on both sides have it all scripted for them to make an easy $150-$300 per hour. I thought a read in high school government class that debtor’s prison is unconstitutional, yet when I visit on other court hearings I see ordinary men imprisoned for child support debt until they pay it in full. Attorneys say men are imprisoned for not following a court order, but tell that to his employer. Who wants to keep employed a jailbird? Mark P.S. I am on a marriage strike until this changes. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marriage_strike

Response:

On 9 Feb 2005 17:44:39 -0800, "Mark" <m-ruff…@northwestern.edu> wrote: >I made $100/yr before we were married and for the three years we were >married I made a $100/yr. She did nothing to contribute to this. >My wife filed for divorce because I was complaining she was a poor >roommate. Mostly, she shopped recreationally and worked a $13/hr job.

At $13 an hour, she only needs to work 8 hours to out-earn your earnings for an entire year’s earning of $100. Unless you meant something else? Lauri in WA I like my email spamless

Response:

"Mark" <m-ruff…@northwestern.edu> writes: > I made $100/yr before we were married and for the three years we were > married I made a $100/yr. She did nothing to contribute to this.

How much per hour is $100/year? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> My wife filed for divorce because I was complaining she was a poor > roommate. Mostly, she shopped recreationally and worked a $13/hr job. > I do not blame my wife or feminists for my losing my son and everything > I earned and saved. > Why are family court, attorneys (mostly white men), and others > Anti-father? At the initial divorce hearing, the county family judge, > after a short discussion, without due process of law, issued a court > order reducing and removing my rights. My parenting replaced by an > "award" to visit two of fourteen days (every other weekend); property > held; 55% monthly income garnished for child support and other support. > To add insult to injury, the Violence Against Women Act Former Pres. > Clinton signed in 1990 made it a crime when my wife became "fearful" of > me. This turned immediately into Order of Protection threatening my > freedom with imprisonment just in case I because at irritated by what > was happening to me. > It is as if the attorney’s on both sides have it all scripted for them > to make an easy $150-$300 per hour. > I thought a read in high school government class that debtor’s prison > is unconstitutional, yet when I visit on other court hearings I see > ordinary men imprisoned for child support debt until they pay it in > full. Attorneys say men are imprisoned for not following a court order, > but tell that to his employer. Who wants to keep employed a jailbird? > Mark > P.S. I am on a marriage strike until this changes.

I’m curious about this.  Are you thinking that people are going to be so anxious to marry you that they’ll change the statutes so that you can end your strike? Usually strikes involve withholding something that people actually _want_ in order to effect change.

Response:

The Problem With Women in America

Question:

Shoot. And to think that when I divorced my first husband (of ten years), all I got was 1/2 of our $136 stainless place settings.  And DANG!  when I divorced my second husband of 7 years I didn’t ask for, or get anything at all. Guess you just married the wrong woman, bub. Better luck next time. Em Be careful what you wish for….

Response:

JC said > To make a long story short,

Somehow, you didn’t quite succeed at that. Casey

Response:

Casey wrote: > JC said >>To make a long story short, > Somehow, you didn’t quite succeed at that.

Lol Rambler

Response:

I think the same could happen to a high earner woman marrying a lower earner man. And none of my women friends are like that, though I heard a story a Vietnamese wife of a Vietnamese guy hubby knew at work who tried to pull that.  And what’s with that weird site, speed seduction?  What the heck is that?  Sounded devious and I couldn’t really figure out what in the world they were getting at.  They could just pay someone; that would work pretty fast if they want to get some; Unfortunately I’m aware there are tons of escort sites on the net…………………………………………… ares "Auntie Em" <Aunti…@yahoo.com> wrote in message

news:dr90q0tiaalhjr75pne9eu31m4hus018k3@4ax.com… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Shoot. And to think that when I divorced my first husband (of ten > years), all I got was 1/2 of our $136 stainless place settings.  And > DANG!  when I divorced my second husband of 7 years I didn’t ask for, > or get anything at all. > Guess you just married the wrong woman, bub. > Better luck next time. > Em > Be careful what you wish for….

Response:

Auntie Em wrote: > Shoot. And to think that when I divorced my first husband (of ten > years), all I got was 1/2 of our $136 stainless place settings.  And > DANG!  when I divorced my second husband of 7 years I didn’t ask for, > or get anything at all. > Guess you just married the wrong woman, bub. > Better luck next time. > Em > Be careful what you wish for….

Is this really your 3rd marriage Em?  Or were you making that stuff up?

Response:

They need to lighten up! http://www.thestatenislandboys.com/U_thrill_me/

Response:

I ask you now a personal question: Where can a 51 years young man go to meet mature women? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Donna wrote: > They need to lighten up! > http://www.thestatenislandboys.com/U_thrill_me/

Response:

"Ren" <noemail-tha…@nospamearthpink.net> wrote in message

news:BxTnd.1144$uV6.675@newsread3.news.pas.earthlink.net… > OK, I read all of that.  And although I feel for you, and you had a pretty > raw deal (even tho I only heard your side of it), I think you’re lumping > *all* women into one group…. which is pretty sad imo.

You are right.  I would settle with 60% of women being crazy.   Hypocrisy has a gender; female. To anyone planning to marry.  Don’t.  And if you do (children), make sure to have a contract with damages control terms.  Someplaces there aren’t valid but at others, they are. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> I will say that I’m an exception to what you consider "the rule".  I’m a > Midwestern woman, in love with a Midwestern man, who is not looking for a > modern woman.  He has said on many occasions, "I don’t wanna seem like a > chauvinist, but I’m looking for a woman that has a bit of the 50’s/60’s in > her."  Meaning, more like mom, less like a feminist.  And you know what? > I’m ok with that.  *I* feel like women have a place in society, and I know > my limits.  There are jobs that I will never do, because I am incapable of > doing them because my gender has put me at a disadvantage to do those jobs. > (I will not give examples just to keep ppl off my back).  I WILL say, that > if a woman can do something as well as a man, without changing the > requirements of what it takes to do said job, then more power to ya sister. > Anyway, my man is looking for a woman with a bit of 60’s in her, and I was > looking for a man with a bit of 60’s in HIM.  I expect him to have a good > job, take care of "man chores", hold the door open for me, pay the bills, > treat me with a great deal of respect, etc.  In return, I’m happy to do > "woman chores" like make meals, wash laundry, take care of the kids and > treat him with a great deal of respect, etc. > And you know what, there’s *nothing* wrong with that.  If that’s what the > both of us want, the amen we found each other.  I am far from a feminist… > I’ve never been to the NOW website, and won’t be.  I never say "all men are > pigs" (well, sometimes when I’m realllllly pissed at my ex, I call him worse > than a pig). > Having said all of that, I have my own thriving business, that if I achieve > my goals (please lord soon!) neither of us will have to have a "real job" > for a long time (but both will anyway, because that’s what we do).  In > return, my future husband has already said he has no problem with cleaning > the house when I’m busy working, or running the kids to ball practice. > See, that’s where the "bit" of the 60’s come in.  We’re both realists, and > know that I’m not wearing a strand of pearls and pumps as I vacuum the > parlor. > well anyway, I guess my point to all of this is that I think you’re just > assuming that women are all the same, and I am proof that we are not.. and > there are many other women out there like me.  Maybe the attitude is coming > from YOU.  (you are what you make). > You said you talked to women online and they never respond, well, would you > rather they respond and lead you on and then divorce you 4 years later like > last time?  I’d rather have no response then end up with a jackass 4 years > later and go *oh hell what happened*. > I have chatted to men online, and let me tell you some of the mistakes they > will make that’d make me never respond to them or cut them short: > -starting a convo with "ASL"???  (god I hate that… and my nickname online > clearly spells out my gender/age) > -Asking me for a photo within the first couple min.  —- that means they > only care with how I look (which btw, is gd HOT lol) > -If I have to carry a conversation > -talks for a great deal of time about himself, and never asks about me > -Obviously busy talking to many people (women) at one time.  Irritates the > crap out of me, if you don’t have time for me for a few minutes at the > beginning, then he’s really not interested. > And lastly, if there wasn’t some sort of "attraction" there, be it physical > or mental, why beat around the bush.  I said to one guy one time that I > thought would be fun to go on a date with, that I wasn’t interested.  Why, > because 3 times I tried to arrange a date with him, and there was always a > reason he could not go, I figured if it was so hard for him to make time for > me, then we would be apart more than I wanted to be.  Add to that, he kept > telling me that he’d went on soooo many "first dates" and couldn’t figure > out why he never got a #2 (probably because he never had time and spent way > too much time talking about himself and his ex).  Basically, I feel like I > did us both a favor.  I didn’t spend gas to go see him, and he didn’t spend > any $ on dinner on something I knew wouldn’t work. > Wouldn’t you rather find that than a pile of fakes? > There are indeed gems out there.  I found the man of my dreams, who btw, is > no Robert Redford, which is GREAT, that keeps all the other women from > wanting a piece of him.. LOL.  *back off ladies!!*  And I am the woman of > his dreams.  And it took a REALLY long time for us to find each other.  So I > guess my advice to you is to look in a different place for women (wherever > your hobbies are, church, work (???), etc)  And if you’re having a hard time > finding quality women online, stop going online!!!  *pokes ya*. > Oh, and one other thing, I suggest that you just take some time off from > trying to find anyone.  Maybe a year, maybe 3.  Your divorce wasn’t all that > long ago.  Sounds like you’re not over that, and that’s clouding your > opinion of what women are really like (well, some women).  And maybe some > therapy would work too….. I don’t mean that as an insult, but in all > sincerity.  I hate to see someone feel the way that you do, because I don’t > think it’s what has to be. > Now, fly… be free with your new found knowledge. > > "JC" <JC24…@nospamnoyb.com> wrote in message > news:r2Snd.7306$pK6.1054@newsread2.news.atl.earthlink.net… > > The problem is not American women, but rather women in America. This is an > > important distinction. America has a cultural milieu and legal system that > > strongly encourages bad female behavior. Any intelligent young woman will > > likely figure this out within a couple of years of arriving. She will > > exist > > inside a "closed" system thoroughly tolerant of divorce and populated with > > obsequious men. Women are psychologically flexible. When in Rome, they do > > as > > the Romans. The younger they are, the more likely they will conform to > > American behavioral patterns. > > MY EXPERIENCE > > I am 36 years old. Like NiceGuy, by my mid-twenties I concluded that > > American women were virtually incompatible with what I was looking for. I > > found them politicized, grasping, spoiled, capricious and disloyal. > > I set about trying to find a Japanese woman in 1994. I placed a personals > > ad > > in a newsletter of sorts targeting Japanese Women interested in western > > men. > > My first and most interesting response was not from a Japanese woman, but > > rather from a Chinese Indonesian woman. She was not living in Indonesia at > > the time, but rather attending college at Hawaii Pacific University (HPU) > > in > > Honolulu. We wrote back and forth for a few months. She seemed a bit pushy > > (which I didn’t like) and because of some unrelated things, I lost touch > > with her after the spring of 1995. In November 1995, out of the blue, she > > wrote saying she would be visiting my west coast city the following month > > and could I show her around? Of course, being a nice guy and also curious, > > I > > agreed. I even took off work to pick her up at the airport. > > When she arrived, she of course had her charm on full throttle. No > > surprise > > then that we got along well and on the third or fourth night of her visit, > > slept together. She returned to Hawaii for a stopover before returning to > > Indonesia. She invited me to join her in Hawaii in January 1996 prior to > > her > > leaving for Indonesia. On very short notice (a few days), I agreed. What > > followed turned out to be five of the best days of my life on Oahu and > > Maui. > > We parted company. I returned to my west coast city; she left for > > Indonesia > > a few days later. I now had the long distance relationship I really wasn’t > > prepared for. We faxed, called (can you say $400 phone bills?), e-mailed, > > sent Hi8 videos, etc. That September I visited her on the island of Bali, > > where she was working for Club Med. Two weeks at Club Med Bali: tough, eh? > > Again, those were some of the best days of my life. I invited her to stay > > with me at my townhouse in January after her contract at Club Med was > > over. > > She spent Jan and Feb of 1997 with me. I think she was hoping I would ask > > her to marry her then, but I was just unsure of my feelings. I > > deliberately > > tried to make things as normal and unexciting as possible to see how we > > could get along when not in "vacation mode." She behaved well, but near > > the > > end got whiny, I think because she was hoping I would propose. She left > > for > > Indonesia and once back started pressuring me a bit to get married. She > > said > > her family was calling her a fool for "waiting for me, etc." Her family > > pressured her to get a job because all she was doing with her time was > > shopping in North Jakarta shopping malls. She landed a good job with a > > European company and worked in a high rise building in downtown Jakarta. I > > was conflicted, but missed her and didn’t want to lose her. I planned to > > travel to Indonesia again in September 1997 and propose marriage. I did so > > and of course was treated very well by her two sisters and mother (her > > father had died in the late 1980s). The family seemed very solid. Two of > > the > > three daughters had advanced degrees from Australian and

… read more »

Response:

Roger B. said > Bill in Co. <surly11curmudg…@earthlink.net> wrote: > >> If you can remember most or all of these, then you have lived!!!!!!! > I do not live for my memories.  [R]

Me neither.  If you can’t be happy with what you think is going to happen tomorrow, you’re doomed to be miserable. Casey

Response:

Bill in Co. <surly11curmudg…@earthlink.net> wrote: >> If you can remember most or all of these, then you have lived!!!!!!!

I do not live for my memories.  [R]

Response:

That was very intentional. )  But we agree to disagree that women are generally crazier than men can be.  Certainly less reasonable.  As a plant manager with mostly female employees (100+), a week wouldn’t pass without having one crying for a nonsense issue.  Enoughb to make me want another job, which I conformed to. [RRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR] "Roger B." <rcblinn-x…@bellsouth.net> wrote in message

news:NTuod.97087$Tq1.77355@bignews1.bellsouth.net… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> "Jobtodo1st" <jobtodo1stREMOVET…@yahoo.com> wrote: > >> to divorce again, I’d still survive.  Even if most women are loons > >> (not a totally unreasonable approach), > > Thank you for rewording what I said [RRRRRRRRRRRRRRR]. > I noticed that you left out my next sentence to the effect that its not > unreasonable for women to believe that most men are clods, jerks, > a**holes, irresponsible drunkards, controlling SOB’s, or pathetic > losers.  [R]

Response:

"Jobtodo1st" <jobtodo1stREMOVET…@yahoo.com> wrote: >> to divorce again, I’d still survive.  Even if most women are loons >> (not a totally unreasonable approach), > Thank you for rewording what I said [RRRRRRRRRRRRRRR].

I noticed that you left out my next sentence to the effect that its not unreasonable for women to believe that most men are clods, jerks, a**holes, irresponsible drunkards, controlling SOB’s, or pathetic losers.  [R]

Response:

In article <K8god.1104$NU3….@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net>, Bill in Co. <surly11curmudg…@earthlink.net> wrote: > If you can remember most or all of these, then you have lived!!!!!!!

Why do I remember all of those and don’t feel like I’ve lived? Ted

Response:

"Seeker" <Tedds212removet…@yahoo.com> wrote in message

news:221120041307370526%Tedds212removethis@yahoo.com… > In article <K8god.1104$NU3….@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net>, Bill > in Co. <surly11curmudg…@earthlink.net> wrote: >> If you can remember most or all of these, then you have lived!!!!!!! > Why do I remember all of those and don’t feel like I’ve lived?

and I don’t remember any of them and have *really* lived

Response:

> to divorce again, I’d still survive.  Even if most women are loons (not > a totally unreasonable approach),

Thank you for rewording what I said [RRRRRRRRRRRRRRR]. ;o)

Response:

Jobtodo1st wrote: > Ever had to work in a company with women being  the major workforce? Hell. > This is where I learnt that 60% of women are just crazy.  Men are not that > crazy in %.

So if you look at the people who go berserk on the job and shoot the place up, the majority are women?

Response:

Donna wrote: > They need to lighten up! > http://www.thestatenislandboys.com/U_thrill_me/

OH YEAH,  BABY!!!     I certainly DO remember when!!!     (So why in hell am I stuck here, instead of back there???      Somebody pse take me back…..I’m MORE than ready, and my bags are packed). Reprinted below, for those too lazy to check it out: Do You Remember???   Sit back, relax, listen, read, & smile. Kind of reminds you to stop & smell the roses of life, and to give thanks to God for life and memories.  DO YOU REMEMBER WHEN…? All the girls had ugly gym uniforms? It took five minutes for the TV warm up?  Nearly everyone’s Mom was at home when the kids got home from school? Nobody owned a purebred dog?   When a quarter was a decent allowance? You’d reach into a muddy gutter for a penny? Your Mom wore nylons that came in two pieces? All your male teachers wore neckties and female teachers had their hair done every day and wore high heels?   You got your windshield cleaned, oil checked, and gas pumped, without asking, all for free, every time? And you didn’t pay for air? And, you got trading stamps to boot? Laundry detergent had free glasses, dishes or towels hidden inside the box? It was considered a great privilege to be taken out to dinner at a real restaurant with your parents? They threatened to keep kids back a grade if they failed. . and they did? When a 57 Chevy was everyone’s dream car…to cruise, peel out, lay rubber or watch submarine races, and people went steady? No one ever asked where the car keys were because they were always in the car, in the ignition, and the doors were never locked? Lying on your back in the grass with your friends and saying things like, "That cloud looks like a .."  and playing baseball with no adults to help kids with the rules of the game? Stuff from the store came without safety caps and hermetic seals because no one had yet tried to poison a perfect stranger? And with all our progress, don’t you just wish, just once, you could slip back in time and savor the slower pace, and share it with the children of today?    When being sent to the principal’s office was nothing compared to the fate that awaited the student at home? Basically we were in fear for our lives, but it wasn’t because of drive-by shootings, drugs, gangs, etc.  Our parents and grandparents were a much bigger threat! But we survived because their love was greater than the threat.  Send this on to someone who can still remember Nancy Drew, the Hardy Boys, Laurel and Hardy, Howdy Doody and the Peanut Gallery, the Lone Ranger, The Shadow Knows, Nellie Bell, Roy and Dale, Trigger and Buttermilk. As well as summers filled with bike rides, baseball games, Hula Hoops, bowling and visits to the pool, and eating Kool-Aid powder with sugar. Didn’t that feel good, just to go back and say, "Yeah, I remember that"?  I am sharing this with you today because it ended with a double dog dare to pass it on. To remember what a double dog dare is, read on. And remember that the perfect age is somewhere between old enough to know better and too young to care. How many of these do you remember? Candy cigarettes Wax Coke-shaped bottles with colored sugar water inside Soda pop machines that dispensed glass bottles Coffee shops with tableside jukeboxes Blackjack, Clove and Teaberry chewing gum Home milk delivery in glass bottles with cardboard stoppers Newsreels before the movie F. Fliers Telephone numbers with a word prefix…(Raymond 4-601). Party lines Peashooters Howdy Doody 45 RPM records Green Stamps Hi-Fi’s Metal ice cubes trays with levers Mimeograph paper Beanie and Cecil Roller-skate keys Cork pop guns Drive ins Studebakers Washtub wringers The Fuller Brush Man Reel-To-Reel tape recorders Tinkertoys Erector Sets The Fort Apache Play Set Lincoln Logs 15 cent McDonald hamburgers 5 cent packs of baseball cards – with that awful pink slab of bubble gum Penny candy 35 cent a gallon gasoline Jiffy Pop popcorn Do you remember a time when… Decisions were made by going "eeny-meeny-miney-moe"? Mistakes were corrected by simply exclaiming, "Do Over!"? "Race issue" meant arguing about who ran the fastest? Catching the fireflies could happily occupy an entire evening? It wasn’t odd to have two or three "Best Friends"? The worst thing you could catch from the opposite sex was "cooties"? Having a weapon in school meant being caught with a slingshot? A foot of snow was a dream come true? Saturday morning cartoons weren’t 30-minute commercials for action figures? "Oly-oly-oxen-free" made perfect sense? Spinning around, getting dizzy, and falling down was cause for giggles? The worst embarrassment was being picked last for a team? War was a card game? Baseball cards in the spokes transformed any bike into a motorcycle? Taking drugs meant orange-flavored chewable aspirin? Water balloons were the ultimate weapon? If you can remember most or all of these, then you have lived!!!!!!! Pass this on to anyone who may need a break from their "grown-up" life . . .I double-dog-dare-ya!

Response:

"Jobtodo1st" <jobtodo1stREMOVET…@yahoo.com> wrote… > And according to stats, women will make the decision for you to > divorce.  Roger, don’t be so naive.  If you are here, odds are that > you divorced and considering your reply, it is likely to happen again > if so. > Ever had to work in a company with women being  the major > workforce?  Hell. This is where I learnt that 60% of women are just > crazy.  Men are not that crazy in %.

I am divorced.  I survived.  I remarried, knowing the riskes.  If I were to divorce again, I’d still survive.  Even if most women are loons (not a totally unreasonable approach), its also proabably true that most men are clods (not an unreasonable assumptoion for women).  Its a question of accepting and dealing with each others’ limitations, which apparently some cannot.  Oh, well….  [R]

Response:

"Jobtodo1st" <jobtodo1stREMOVET…@yahoo.com> wrote… > To anyone planning to marry.  Don’t.

My suggestion is that you don’t, as you are clearly unsuited. Those of us who actually like women, are IMO, better able to make that decision for ourselves.  [R]

Response:

> My suggestion is that you don’t, as you are clearly unsuited. > Those of us who actually like women, are IMO, better able to > make that decision for ourselves.  [R]

And according to stats, women will make the decision for you to divorce. Roger, don’t be so naive.  If you are here, odds are that you divorced and considering your reply, it is likely to happen again if so. Ever had to work in a company with women being  the major workforce?  Hell. This is where I learnt that 60% of women are just crazy.  Men are not that crazy in %. I have no problem with women that have a decent attitude; too bad they are in minority.

Response:

Jobtodo1st said > > My suggestion is that you don’t, as you are clearly unsuited. > > Those of us who actually like women, are IMO, better able to > > make that decision for ourselves.  [R] > And according to stats, women will make the decision for you to divorce. > Roger, don’t be so naive.  If you are here, odds are that you divorced and > considering your reply, it is likely to happen again if so. > Ever had to work in a company with women being  the major workforce?  Hell. > This is where I learnt that 60% of women are just crazy.  Men are not that > crazy in %.

Nothing like some solid scientific research to back up your biased opinion. > I have no problem with women that have a decent attitude; too bad they are > in minority.

Ever think their "attitude" is just a reaction to you? Casey

Response:

On Mon, 22 Nov 2004 01:36:48 +0200, Xenos the elder sayeth: > I ask you now a personal question: > Where can a 51 years young man go to meet mature women? > Donna wrote: >> They need to lighten up! >> http://www.thestatenislandboys.com/U_thrill_me/

nature rambles, evening classes

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -0000 wrote: > The problem is not American women, but rather men in America.  This is an > important distinction. > Mr/s?_Z

Response:

OK, I read all of that.  And although I feel for you, and you had a pretty raw deal (even tho I only heard your side of it), I think you’re lumping *all* women into one group…. which is pretty sad imo. I will say that I’m an exception to what you consider "the rule".  I’m a Midwestern woman, in love with a Midwestern man, who is not looking for a modern woman.  He has said on many occasions, "I don’t wanna seem like a chauvinist, but I’m looking for a woman that has a bit of the 50’s/60’s in her."  Meaning, more like mom, less like a feminist.  And you know what? I’m ok with that.  *I* feel like women have a place in society, and I know my limits.  There are jobs that I will never do, because I am incapable of doing them because my gender has put me at a disadvantage to do those jobs. (I will not give examples just to keep ppl off my back).  I WILL say, that if a woman can do something as well as a man, without changing the requirements of what it takes to do said job, then more power to ya sister. Anyway, my man is looking for a woman with a bit of 60’s in her, and I was looking for a man with a bit of 60’s in HIM.  I expect him to have a good job, take care of "man chores", hold the door open for me, pay the bills, treat me with a great deal of respect, etc.  In return, I’m happy to do "woman chores" like make meals, wash laundry, take care of the kids and treat him with a great deal of respect, etc. And you know what, there’s *nothing* wrong with that.  If that’s what the both of us want, the amen we found each other.  I am far from a feminist… I’ve never been to the NOW website, and won’t be.  I never say "all men are pigs" (well, sometimes when I’m realllllly pissed at my ex, I call him worse than a pig). Having said all of that, I have my own thriving business, that if I achieve my goals (please lord soon!) neither of us will have to have a "real job" for a long time (but both will anyway, because that’s what we do).  In return, my future husband has already said he has no problem with cleaning the house when I’m busy working, or running the kids to ball practice. See, that’s where the "bit" of the 60’s come in.  We’re both realists, and know that I’m not wearing a strand of pearls and pumps as I vacuum the parlor. well anyway, I guess my point to all of this is that I think you’re just assuming that women are all the same, and I am proof that we are not.. and there are many other women out there like me.  Maybe the attitude is coming from YOU.  (you are what you make). You said you talked to women online and they never respond, well, would you rather they respond and lead you on and then divorce you 4 years later like last time?  I’d rather have no response then end up with a jackass 4 years later and go *oh hell what happened*. I have chatted to men online, and let me tell you some of the mistakes they will make that’d make me never respond to them or cut them short: -starting a convo with "ASL"???  (god I hate that… and my nickname online clearly spells out my gender/age) -Asking me for a photo within the first couple min.  —- that means they only care with how I look (which btw, is gd HOT lol) -If I have to carry a conversation -talks for a great deal of time about himself, and never asks about me -Obviously busy talking to many people (women) at one time.  Irritates the crap out of me, if you don’t have time for me for a few minutes at the beginning, then he’s really not interested. And lastly, if there wasn’t some sort of "attraction" there, be it physical or mental, why beat around the bush.  I said to one guy one time that I thought would be fun to go on a date with, that I wasn’t interested.  Why, because 3 times I tried to arrange a date with him, and there was always a reason he could not go, I figured if it was so hard for him to make time for me, then we would be apart more than I wanted to be.  Add to that, he kept telling me that he’d went on soooo many "first dates" and couldn’t figure out why he never got a #2 (probably because he never had time and spent way too much time talking about himself and his ex).  Basically, I feel like I did us both a favor.  I didn’t spend gas to go see him, and he didn’t spend any $ on dinner on something I knew wouldn’t work. Wouldn’t you rather find that than a pile of fakes? There are indeed gems out there.  I found the man of my dreams, who btw, is no Robert Redford, which is GREAT, that keeps all the other women from wanting a piece of him.. LOL.  *back off ladies!!*  And I am the woman of his dreams.  And it took a REALLY long time for us to find each other.  So I guess my advice to you is to look in a different place for women (wherever your hobbies are, church, work (???), etc)  And if you’re having a hard time finding quality women online, stop going online!!!  *pokes ya*. Oh, and one other thing, I suggest that you just take some time off from trying to find anyone.  Maybe a year, maybe 3.  Your divorce wasn’t all that long ago.  Sounds like you’re not over that, and that’s clouding your opinion of what women are really like (well, some women).  And maybe some therapy would work too….. I don’t mean that as an insult, but in all sincerity.  I hate to see someone feel the way that you do, because I don’t think it’s what has to be. Now, fly… be free with your new found knowledge. "JC" <JC24…@nospamnoyb.com> wrote in message

news:r2Snd.7306$pK6.1054@newsread2.news.atl.earthlink.net… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> The problem is not American women, but rather women in America. This is an > important distinction. America has a cultural milieu and legal system that > strongly encourages bad female behavior. Any intelligent young woman will > likely figure this out within a couple of years of arriving. She will > exist > inside a

Where the hell have I been???

Question:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -jbrianchamberlin wrote: > Good Lord!!! One day the news server is working fine and the next the > bozo’s at Adelphia go and change it up on me. Took me over 2 weeks to > find out what happened. > Okay, there is no way in hell I’m going to go back and read 2000 posts > for the past 2 weeks.  So how is everyone? Still alive and breathing? > Anyone going to go see Passion of the Christ? I’m sure it’s been > talked about to some extent around here.  I’ve always struggled with > my own Christianity but I do plan on seeing the film. > Anyway… just wanted to say hi. > –Brian

Passion of the Christ won’t come to our area.. it’s too intellectual How are you doing? -Cari — email: cari_p at comcast dot net

Response:

Cari{P} <Cari{P}> writes: > jbrianchamberlin wrote: > > Good Lord!!! One day the news server is working fine and the next the > > bozo’s at Adelphia go and change it up on me. Took me over 2 weeks to > > find out what happened. > > Okay, there is no way in hell I’m going to go back and read 2000 > > posts > > for the past 2 weeks.  So how is everyone? Still alive and breathing? > > Anyone going to go see Passion of the Christ? I’m sure it’s been > > talked about to some extent around here.  I’ve always struggled with > > my own Christianity but I do plan on seeing the film. > > Anyway… just wanted to say hi. –Brian > Passion of the Christ won’t come to our area.. it’s too intellectual

The reviews I’ve read say it isn’t intellectual at all.  Rather it is about violence.  2 hours of watching someone being brutally tortured. (Two reviews said that it would be rated NC-17 if it wasn’t about Christ.)  

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -On Thu, 26 Feb 2004 18:19:05 -0500, Cari{P} <Cari{P}> wrote: >jbrianchamberlin wrote: >> Good Lord!!! One day the news server is working fine and the next the >> bozo’s at Adelphia go and change it up on me. Took me over 2 weeks to >> find out what happened. >> Okay, there is no way in hell I’m going to go back and read 2000 posts >> for the past 2 weeks.  So how is everyone? Still alive and breathing? >> Anyone going to go see Passion of the Christ? I’m sure it’s been >> talked about to some extent around here.  I’ve always struggled with >> my own Christianity but I do plan on seeing the film. >> Anyway… just wanted to say hi. >> –Brian >Passion of the Christ won’t come to our area.. it’s too intellectual >How are you doing? >-Cari

How am I doing? Looking for a divorce attorney. =) How are you? –Brian

Response:

On Thu, 26 Feb 2004 23:22:22 GMT, Doug Anderson – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -<ethelthe…@yahoo.com> wrote: >Cari{P} <Cari{P}> writes: >> jbrianchamberlin wrote: >> > Good Lord!!! One day the news server is working fine and the next the >> > bozo’s at Adelphia go and change it up on me. Took me over 2 weeks to >> > find out what happened. >> > Okay, there is no way in hell I’m going to go back and read 2000 >> > posts >> > for the past 2 weeks.  So how is everyone? Still alive and breathing? >> > Anyone going to go see Passion of the Christ? I’m sure it’s been >> > talked about to some extent around here.  I’ve always struggled with >> > my own Christianity but I do plan on seeing the film. >> > Anyway… just wanted to say hi. –Brian >> Passion of the Christ won’t come to our area.. it’s too intellectual >The reviews I’ve read say it isn’t intellectual at all.  Rather it is >about violence.  2 hours of watching someone being brutally tortured. >(Two reviews said that it would be rated NC-17 if it wasn’t about >Christ.)  

Pretty much sums up the time period.   –Brian

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -jbrianchamberlin wrote: > On Thu, 26 Feb 2004 18:19:05 -0500, Cari{P} <Cari{P}> wrote: >>jbrianchamberlin wrote: >>>Good Lord!!! One day the news server is working fine and the next the >>>bozo’s at Adelphia go and change it up on me. Took me over 2 weeks to >>>find out what happened. >>>Okay, there is no way in hell I’m going to go back and read 2000 posts >>>for the past 2 weeks.  So how is everyone? Still alive and breathing? >>>Anyone going to go see Passion of the Christ? I’m sure it’s been >>>talked about to some extent around here.  I’ve always struggled with >>>my own Christianity but I do plan on seeing the film. >>>Anyway… just wanted to say hi. >>>–Brian >>Passion of the Christ won’t come to our area.. it’s too intellectual >>How are you doing? >>-Cari > How am I doing? Looking for a divorce attorney. =) How are you? > –Brian

Um.. congratulations? I’m peachy as ever — email: cari_p at comcast dot net

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -jbrianchamberlin <jbrianchamber…@adelphia.net> wrote in message <news:8f0o3095n37rjmb37af2uto4tga71sk583@4ax.com>… > On Thu, 26 Feb 2004 18:19:05 -0500, Cari{P} <Cari{P}> wrote: > >jbrianchamberlin wrote: > >> Good Lord!!! One day the news server is working fine and the next the > >> bozo’s at Adelphia go and change it up on me. Took me over 2 weeks to > >> find out what happened. > >> Okay, there is no way in hell I’m going to go back and read 2000 posts > >> for the past 2 weeks.  So how is everyone? Still alive and breathing? > >> Anyone going to go see Passion of the Christ? I’m sure it’s been > >> talked about to some extent around here.  I’ve always struggled with > >> my own Christianity but I do plan on seeing the film. > >> Anyway… just wanted to say hi. > >> –Brian > >Passion of the Christ won’t come to our area.. it’s too intellectual > >How are you doing? > >-Cari > How am I doing? Looking for a divorce attorney. =) How are you? > –Brian

Given that there’s a smiley after you said that you’re looking for a lawyer, it sounds like you’re glad.  How does your wife feel about it?  Do you plan on living nearby and sharing custody of your children? My only hope and prayer is that the answer is yes.  Although divorce can really suck, the best you can do for your children in a divorce is: 1. Never bad mouth their mother no matter how much you feel like it (they’re your children, not your friend) 2. Always be there for any event possible, even if it means spending time with their mother 3. Try and be friends with her (probably it will take some time to pass).  At times, if you can, go out for breakfast together (with the kids). 4. If or when you start dating, do it when the children are with her and don’t discuss it with them and don’t have them meet ANYONE unless you are fairly sure it is serious. 5. Assuming that she will be the primary caretaker (forgive me if I’m wrong), remember, the burden falls on her and she will need breaks in order to be a good mom-so give her breaks whenever you can. 6. Remember, the marriage took 2 and the divorce takes 2.  Neither one of you are completely at fault, both of you are.  So do your best not to be bitter and walk around blaming her or yourself.  There are some great books out there, you might want to find one. 7. My husband and I used a divorce mediator rather than both of us getting lawyers and it worked out very well.  We stayed out of court and nothing got ugly.  As I have said in the past, I had a very amicable divorce and it is reflected in how well our son adapted (he was 4.5 when we split up and is now an upstanding citizen I hope that some of this helps Brian and good luck to you.

Response:

jbrianchamberlin asked: > Anyone going to go see Passion of the Christ? I’m sure it’s been > talked about to some extent around here.  I’ve always struggled with > my own Christianity but I do plan on seeing the film. "Doug Anderson <ethelthe…@yahoo.com>" wrote: > The reviews I’ve read say it isn’t intellectual at all.  Rather it is > about violence. "whisper <no…@notnow.com>" wrote: > I have heard the "professional" reviewers do not like it.. but from > the people I have heard.. they all came out of it in AWE..and said it > "really made me think"

When "Braveheart" came out in 1995, I first heard about it because people were protesting it.  They were upset about the portrayal of Edward II as an incompetent homosexual.  It was anti-homosexual bias to put a character like that in a movie.  Mel Gibson’s reply consisted of saying that he had nothing against gay people, some of whom worked on this movie, and among the historians he consulted it was generally accepted that Edward II was (a) incompetent, and (b) gay.  He felt it was more insulting to gay people to say "We can’t tell the truth about homosexuals, both good and bad, we have to leave out anything that shows them in a bad light" — that would be saying that gay people aren’t really people at all, because all people, and all groups of people, have good and bad in them. Since one of my favorite t-shirts reads "Celebrate freedom: read a banned book", I applied the principle to movies and went to see "Braveheart".  It thought it was great.  So in my experience, "Mel Gibson movies that people are protesting" is a good category.  With that in mind, I went to see "The Passion of The Christ".  * Many people who have seen this movie do not know what it is.  They might understand better if they knew what Mel Gibson meant by saying it was a "moving Caravaggio" (assuming they know who Caravaggio was). Here’s a still Caravaggio:     http://www.bc.edu/bc_org/avp/cas/romlang/art/stthomas.jpg To someone who doesn’t know the story of St. Thomas, this painting is probably just weird.  To someone who does, it’s obvious what’s going on. (Someone who doesn’t know the story may still express admiration for the amazingly lifelike wrinkles in Thomas’s forehead and the realism in the folds of clothing.) For another example, consider this statue:     http://www.artchive.com/artchive/B/bernini/bernini_apollo_and_daphne.jpg This is a famous sculpture by Bernini; but seeing it cold, it doesn’t make much sense.  Why are there leaves coming out of her hands?  We can see the alarm in her face, but it’s not clear why. The statue is based on the story from Greek mythology of Apollo and Daphne, who was turned into a laurel tree rather than submit to Apollo’s unwelcome amorous advances.  The alarm she is feeling isn’t worry that she’s turning into a tree — it’s worry that she might not turn into a tree fast enough. To someone who knows the story, the statue brings to life Daphne’s desperation to escape Apollo.  To someone who doesn’t know the story, the leaves coming out of her fingers are so distracting that the statue cannot convey anything about what Daphne is feeling.  (One may still marvel at the skill required to carve thin leaves out of solid stone.) Another example, somewhat closer to the movie, is this statue:     http://www.christusrex.org/www1/citta/0-Pieta.jpg Here’s a woman holding a man; so what?  Well, "so what" is that it’s the Virgin Mary holding Jesus’ body, after he’s been taken off the Cross.  (Again, whatever your religious beliefs or cultural literacy, looking closely at this work should make it apparent how much skill and dedication were required to produce it.) Mel Gibson is not a sculptor or a painter.  He doesn’t make statues or paintings.  He makes movies.  "The Passion of the Christ" is not really a narrative; it’s not about all of what Jesus said and did; it’s not propaganda or documentary.  It’s the movie version of classical painting or sculpture; it presents one scene from a longer story, to focus on and bring to life one particular facet of the story. The movie has essentially no introduction: no backplot is presented, the characters are not introduced, the story up until this point is left untold.  But it’s not that kind of movie. Nobody looks at La Pieta and says "Oh, this is an awful retelling of the New Testament; Jesus is just *lying there*, doing nothing.  How could they leave out the Sermon on the Mount!?"  Such a criticism would be incredibly stupid, even for someone who doesn’t know much about classical art. But people have said exactly that about of "The Passion of The Christ", a bit of criticism which is just as stupid as if it were made of a statue. If you don’t know the story of Apollo and Daphne, Bernini’s statue may not be of interest to you.  Bernini didn’t make it to be an introduction to Greek mythology, so if you aren’t already reasonably literate in the subject matter, the statue is not for you.  If you don’t know the New Testament, many of Caravaggio’s paintings will likely seem odd.  They aren’t supposed to be an introduction, so if you don’t know the story, his paintings aren’t for you.  If you don’t want to admire them as art, or learn about the subject so as to better appreciate them, it may be better to go look at some other statues and other paintings on subjects you do know about. "The Passion of The Christ" assumes you know the basics of the story; if you don’t, and you aren’t willing to appreciate the film as a work of art — and it is *really* well made — you may not like it at all. Darren Provine ! kil…@elvis.rowan.edu ! http://www.rowan.edu/~kilroy "[W]e preach Christ crucified: a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness  to Gentiles, but to those whom God has called, both Jews and Greeks,  Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God."                                   — 1 Corinthians 1:22-24

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Caren wrote: > I have no desire to see it whatsoever simply because of the violence > that I have heard about.  I have a weak stomach and violence is > something that makes it weaker. > I find it so amazing to hear the different reviews about the movie > though.  My workout partner arrived at the gym yesterday morning with > totally puffy eyes.  She had cried throught out the movie and all > night.  When I asked her what was wrong, she started crying again. > She loved the movie more than any movie she had ever seen.  Tai, are > you sure you went to the same movie ? )

LOL It’s fascinating, isn’t it? I guess that’s why the film interests me. It’s not the subject matter so much as the very different ways it’s been received and it’s clear it’s not just believer vs. non-believer. I wonder if whether or not the believer is of a fundamentalist sect is more relevent. I think you have more of them over there than we do…. Tai

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"Tai" <tainu…@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:c23l98$1ocfhq$1@ID-123442.news.uni-berlin.de… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Caren wrote: > > I have no desire to see it whatsoever simply because of the violence > > that I have heard about.  I have a weak stomach and violence is > > something that makes it weaker. > > I find it so amazing to hear the different reviews about the movie > > though.  My workout partner arrived at the gym yesterday morning with > > totally puffy eyes.  She had cried throught out the movie and all > > night.  When I asked her what was wrong, she started crying again. > > She loved the movie more than any movie she had ever seen.  Tai, are > > you sure you went to the same movie ? ) > LOL > It’s fascinating, isn’t it? I guess that’s why the film interests me. It’s > not the subject matter so much as the very different ways it’s been received > and it’s clear it’s not just believer vs. non-believer. I wonder if whether > or not the believer is of a fundamentalist sect is more relevent. I think > you have more of them over there than we do….

People are remarkable in our ability to see what each of us believes, seeing something different in the same situation. The main message my wife saw in TPOTC is the Catholic one that blame for Christ’s death falls on herself and everyone — all for whom he died. The main message I saw in this movie is that I can endure and deny my own impulses to anger, that nothing is asked of me that Christ did not exceed. The determining factor on whether someone sees a purpose for the extreme violence in this movie is more inclusive than fundamentalism (in the sense that US conservative Protestants identify themselves as fundamentalist). Different viewpoints will see different purposes, but if someone does not believe in a clear, internalized purpose for the violence they will see, it will feel much more disturbing. — Tsam

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -"Tai" <tainu…@yahoo.com> wrote in message <news:c2135g$1narn6$1@ID-123442.news.uni-berlin.de>… > whisper wrote: > > I have heard the "professional" reviewers do not like it.. but from > > the people I have heard.. they all came out of it in AWE..and said it > > "really made me think" > I haven’t read any professional reviews and I had the following thoughts: > The violence was at such a level and for so much of the film that I was > repulsed. At one point I thought there’s no way anyone could stagger up that > hill under his own steam after such ill-treatment, let alone carrying a > cross.  I have a strong stomach and no general objection to violence in film > but I found this film to be overly sadistic in nature. > It made me think of hair-shirts, scourging and orgies of religious inspired > abuse and self-abuse. A pig wallow of suffering. > And what’s with the Devil? It’s been a while but I don’t recall *that* > character from the gospels. Biblical scholars please feel free to jog my > memory. > My friend, who is of a gentle Christian persuasion, was deeply disappointed > and I felt for her. It would probably be hard for any unbeliever to > appreciate the spiritual message but I did feel there wasn’t much there for > people who believe in anything other than the most literal biblical > interpretation. Which is odd, considering the amount of artistic license > taken. > There were no children at the session I attended and I’d have been appalled > to see anyone younger than 14 or 15. I’m glad I went on a half-price day! > Tai

I have no desire to see it whatsoever simply because of the violence that I have heard about.  I have a weak stomach and violence is something that makes it weaker. I find it so amazing to hear the different reviews about the movie though.  My workout partner arrived at the gym yesterday morning with totally puffy eyes.  She had cried throught out the movie and all night.  When I asked her what was wrong, she started crying again. She loved the movie more than any movie she had ever seen.  Tai, are you sure you went to the same movie ? ) Oh and Cari-there are parents out there that have little common sense regarding what is and isn’t appropriate for children to view, but trust me when I tell you that many parents do care and I happen to be one of them.  I carefully checked out the reviews on Cheaper by the Dozen before I took my 9 year old.  I don’t let her see many movies that her friends are allowed to see.  She has the rest of her life to see movies that she wants.

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Cari{P} <Cari{P}> wrote: > Emma Anne wrote: > > I wish it were rated NC 17.  People are bringing their kids.  =:-0 > Is this really surprising?  Some people will take there kids to anything. > In fact, when DH and I went to see "Resident Evil" some dad left his > younger than 10 year old girl in the theatre alone while he went to get > food.

I guess it’s not surprising, but it sure is disturbing.

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Emma Anne wrote: > I wish it were rated NC 17.  People are bringing their kids.  =:-0

Is this really surprising?  Some people will take there kids to anything. In fact, when DH and I went to see "Resident Evil" some dad left his younger than 10 year old girl in the theatre alone while he went to get food. Ugh. — email: cari_p at comcast dot net

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>Emma Anne wrote: >> I wish it were rated NC 17.  People are bringing their kids.  =:-0 >Is this really surprising?  Some people will take there kids to anything. >In fact, when DH and I went to see "Resident Evil" some dad left his >younger than 10 year old girl in the theatre alone while he went to get >food. >Ugh.

One guy brought his 6 or 7 year old son to The Green Mile.  :-/ Sheila

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On Mon, 01 Mar 2004 23:53:31 GMT, whisper <no…@notnow.com> wrote: > I have heard the "professional" reviewers do not like it.. but from the > people I have heard.. they all came out of it in AWE..and said it "really > made me think"

Here’s the kind of reviewing the professionals do… This is David Ansen reviewing "The Passion". http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/4338528/ This is David Ansen reviewing Halloween http://www.geocities.com/Hollywood/Set/1817/halloween/H1-NEWS.HTML You’ll see an interesting contrast )) This is the reason you should not believe ‘professional reviewers’. -Tony – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Kass > "Bill in Co." <surly curmudg…@earthlink.net> wrote in message > news:XuP0c.16733$aT1.156@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net… >> Emma Anne wrote: >> > Doug Anderson <ethelthe…@yahoo.com> wrote: >> >> Cari{P} <Cari{P}> writes: >> >>> jbrianchamberlin wrote: >> >>>> Good Lord!!! One day the news server is working fine and the next the >> >>>> bozo’s at Adelphia go and change it up on me. Took me over 2 weeks to >> >>>> find out what happened. >> >>>> Okay, there is no way in hell I’m going to go back and read 2000 >> >>>> posts >> >>>> for the past 2 weeks.  So how is everyone? Still alive and breathing? >> >>>> Anyone going to go see Passion of the Christ? I’m sure it’s been >> >>>> talked about to some extent around here.  I’ve always struggled with >> >>>> my own Christianity but I do plan on seeing the film. >> >>>> Anyway… just wanted to say hi. –Brian >> >>> Passion of the Christ won’t come to our area.. it’s too intellectual >:P >> >> The reviews I’ve read say it isn’t intellectual at all.  Rather it is >> >> about violence. >> Of course not, it has to sell to the masses.   No surprise there, > especially >> these days.

– "If the grass appears to be greener on the other side of the fence, it’s time to fertilize your lawn!" Want to jump start your marriage?  Consider a Marriage Encounter weekend. Check out http://www.wwme.org for more information.

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"whisper" <no…@notnow.com> writes: > I have heard the "professional" reviewers do not like it.. but from the > people I have heard.. they all came out of it in AWE..and said it "really > made me think"

I don’t know if the "professional" reviewers speak with one voice. I’ve read both good reviews and bad reviews from people who are paid to review movies.  _All_ the reviews I’ve read (good or bad) stress the violence of the movie, and that it is about Jesus’s death, not about his life or teachings.

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"whisper" <no…@notnow.com> wrote in message <news:%1Q0c.25654$6K.21354@nwrddc02.gnilink.net>… > I have heard the "professional" reviewers do not like it.. but from the > people I have heard.. they all came out of it in AWE..and said it "really > made me think" > Kass

My son (who is almost 18) and I just got back from seeing it.  The film was very powerful and humbling to see how Christ suffered so. Reading about the brutality of the last 12 hours in the Bible is easier than graphically seeing it acted out.  A very moving film. I was saddened to see small children there.  I would have a difficult time recommending anyone younger than 15 seeing it.  I don’t think they have the maturity to understand the violence.  At a younger age, I think it would have just scared the heck out of me.  I doubt if I would have understood the message at all. Allen

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whisper wrote: > I have heard the "professional" reviewers do not like it.. but from > the people I have heard.. they all came out of it in AWE..and said it > "really made me think"

I haven’t read any professional reviews and I had the following thoughts: The violence was at such a level and for so much of the film that I was repulsed. At one point I thought there’s no way anyone could stagger up that hill under his own steam after such ill-treatment, let alone carrying a cross.  I have a strong stomach and no general objection to violence in film but I found this film to be overly sadistic in nature. It made me think of hair-shirts, scourging and orgies of religious inspired abuse and self-abuse. A pig wallow of suffering. And what’s with the Devil? It’s been a while but I don’t recall *that* character from the gospels. Biblical scholars please feel free to jog my memory. My friend, who is of a gentle Christian persuasion, was deeply disappointed and I felt for her. It would probably be hard for any unbeliever to appreciate the spiritual message but I did feel there wasn’t much there for people who believe in anything other than the most literal biblical interpretation. Which is odd, considering the amount of artistic license taken. There were no children at the session I attended and I’d have been appalled to see anyone younger than 14 or 15. I’m glad I went on a half-price day! Tai

Response:

On 27 Feb 2004 07:51:48 -0800, care…@msn.com (Caren) wrote: – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->jbrianchamberlin <jbrianchamber…@adelphia.net> wrote in message <news:8f0o3095n37rjmb37af2uto4tga71sk583@4ax.com>… >> On Thu, 26 Feb 2004 18:19:05 -0500, Cari{P} <Cari{P}> wrote: >> >jbrianchamberlin wrote: >> >> Good Lord!!! One day the news server is working fine and the next the >> >> bozo’s at Adelphia go and change it up on me. Took me over 2 weeks to >> >> find out what happened. >> >> Okay, there is no way in hell I’m going to go back and read 2000 posts >> >> for the past 2 weeks.  So how is everyone? Still alive and breathing? >> >> Anyone going to go see Passion of the Christ? I’m sure it’s been >> >> talked about to some extent around here.  I’ve always struggled with >> >> my own Christianity but I do plan on seeing the film. >> >> Anyway… just wanted to say hi. >> >> –Brian >> >Passion of the Christ won’t come to our area.. it’s too intellectual >> >How are you doing? >> >-Cari >> How am I doing? Looking for a divorce attorney. =) How are you? >> –Brian >Given that there’s a smiley after you said that you’re looking for a >lawyer, it sounds like you’re glad.  How does your wife feel about it? > Do you plan on living nearby and sharing custody of your children? >My only hope and prayer is that the answer is yes.  Although divorce >can really suck, the best you can do for your children in a divorce >is: >1. Never bad mouth their mother no matter how much you feel like it >(they’re your children, not your friend) >2. Always be there for any event possible, even if it means spending >time with their mother >3. Try and be friends with her (probably it will take some time to >pass).  At times, if you can, go out for breakfast together (with the >kids). >4. If or when you start dating, do it when the children are with her >and don’t discuss it with them and don’t have them meet ANYONE unless >you are fairly sure it is serious. >5. Assuming that she will be the primary caretaker (forgive me if I’m >wrong), remember, the burden falls on her and she will need breaks in >order to be a good mom-so give her breaks whenever you can. >6. Remember, the marriage took 2 and the divorce takes 2.  Neither one >of you are completely at fault, both of you are.  So do your best not >to be bitter and walk around blaming her or yourself.  There are some >great books out there, you might want to find one. >7. My husband and I used a divorce mediator rather than both of us >getting lawyers and it worked out very well.  We stayed out of court >and nothing got ugly.  As I have said in the past, I had a very >amicable divorce and it is reflected in how well our son adapted (he >was 4.5 when we split up and is now an upstanding citizen >I hope that some of this helps Brian and good luck to you.

Since the usenet is by no way a secure thing, I’m going to refrain from saying anything else.   Thanks for the advice.. it’s appreciated. –Brian

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I have heard the "professional" reviewers do not like it.. but from the people I have heard.. they all came out of it in AWE..and said it "really made me think" Kass "Bill in Co." <surly curmudg…@earthlink.net> wrote in message news:XuP0c.16733$aT1.156@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Emma Anne wrote: > > Doug Anderson <ethelthe…@yahoo.com> wrote: > >> Cari{P} <Cari{P}> writes: > >>> jbrianchamberlin wrote: > >>>> Good Lord!!! One day the news server is working fine and the next the > >>>> bozo’s at Adelphia go and change it up on me. Took me over 2 weeks to > >>>> find out what happened. > >>>> Okay, there is no way in hell I’m going to go back and read 2000 > >>>> posts > >>>> for the past 2 weeks.  So how is everyone? Still alive and breathing? > >>>> Anyone going to go see Passion of the Christ? I’m sure it’s been > >>>> talked about to some extent around here.  I’ve always struggled with > >>>> my own Christianity but I do plan on seeing the film. > >>>> Anyway… just wanted to say hi. –Brian > >>> Passion of the Christ won’t come to our area.. it’s too intellectual > >> The reviews I’ve read say it isn’t intellectual at all.  Rather it is > >> about violence. > Of course not, it has to sell to the masses.   No surprise there, especially > these days.

Response:

Great Advice…my X and I do almost exactly as you wrote.. its worked so far.. been 5 years this April. We both agreed to put the needs of the children first… Kass "Caren" <care…@msn.com> wrote in message

news:3754f0b3.0402270751.7ebc56de@posting.google.com… > jbrianchamberlin <jbrianchamber…@adelphia.net> wrote in message

<news:8f0o3095n37rjmb37af2uto4tga71sk583@4ax.com>… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> > On Thu, 26 Feb 2004 18:19:05 -0500, Cari{P} <Cari{P}> wrote: > > >jbrianchamberlin wrote: > > >> Good Lord!!! One day the news server is working fine and the next the > > >> bozo’s at Adelphia go and change it up on me. Took me over 2 weeks to > > >> find out what happened. > > >> Okay, there is no way in hell I’m going to go back and read 2000 posts > > >> for the past 2 weeks.  So how is everyone? Still alive and breathing? > > >> Anyone going to go see Passion of the Christ? I’m sure it’s been > > >> talked about to some extent around here.  I’ve always struggled with > > >> my own Christianity but I do plan on seeing the film. > > >> Anyway… just wanted to say hi. > > >> –Brian > > >Passion of the Christ won’t come to our area.. it’s too intellectual > > >How are you doing? > > >-Cari > > How am I doing? Looking for a divorce attorney. =) How are you? > > –Brian > Given that there’s a smiley after you said that you’re looking for a > lawyer, it sounds like you’re glad.  How does your wife feel about it? >  Do you plan on living nearby and sharing custody of your children? > My only hope and prayer is that the answer is yes.  Although divorce > can really suck, the best you can do for your children in a divorce > is: > 1. Never bad mouth their mother no matter how much you feel like it > (they’re your children, not your friend) > 2. Always be there for any event possible, even if it means spending > time with their mother > 3. Try and be friends with her (probably it will take some time to > pass).  At times, if you can, go out for breakfast together (with the > kids). > 4. If or when you start dating, do it when the children are with her > and don’t discuss it with them and don’t have them meet ANYONE unless > you are fairly sure it is serious. > 5. Assuming that she will be the primary caretaker (forgive me if I’m > wrong), remember, the burden falls on her and she will need breaks in > order to be a good mom-so give her breaks whenever you can. > 6. Remember, the marriage took 2 and the divorce takes 2.  Neither one > of you are completely at fault, both of you are.  So do your best not > to be bitter and walk around blaming her or yourself.  There are some > great books out there, you might want to find one. > 7. My husband and I used a divorce mediator rather than both of us > getting lawyers and it worked out very well.  We stayed out of court > and nothing got ugly.  As I have said in the past, I had a very > amicable divorce and it is reflected in how well our son adapted (he > was 4.5 when we split up and is now an upstanding citizen > I hope that some of this helps Brian and good luck to you.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Emma Anne wrote: > Doug Anderson <ethelthe…@yahoo.com> wrote: >> Cari{P} <Cari{P}> writes: >>> jbrianchamberlin wrote: >>>> Good Lord!!! One day the news server is working fine and the next the >>>> bozo’s at Adelphia go and change it up on me. Took me over 2 weeks to >>>> find out what happened. >>>> Okay, there is no way in hell I’m going to go back and read 2000 >>>> posts >>>> for the past 2 weeks.  So how is everyone? Still alive and breathing? >>>> Anyone going to go see Passion of the Christ? I’m sure it’s been >>>> talked about to some extent around here.  I’ve always struggled with >>>> my own Christianity but I do plan on seeing the film. >>>> Anyway… just wanted to say hi. –Brian >>> Passion of the Christ won’t come to our area.. it’s too intellectual >> The reviews I’ve read say it isn’t intellectual at all.  Rather it is >> about violence.

Of course not, it has to sell to the masses.   No surprise there, especially these days.

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Doug Anderson <ethelthe…@yahoo.com> wrote: > Cari{P} <Cari{P}> writes: > > jbrianchamberlin wrote: > > > Good Lord!!! One day the news server is working fine and the next the > > > bozo’s at Adelphia go and change it up on me. Took me over 2 weeks to > > > find out what happened. > > > Okay, there is no way in hell I’m going to go back and read 2000 > > > posts > > > for the past 2 weeks.  So how is everyone? Still alive and breathing? > > > Anyone going to go see Passion of the Christ? I’m sure it’s been > > > talked about to some extent around here.  I’ve always struggled with > > > my own Christianity but I do plan on seeing the film. > > > Anyway… just wanted to say hi. –Brian > > Passion of the Christ won’t come to our area.. it’s too intellectual > The reviews I’ve read say it isn’t intellectual at all.  Rather it is > about violence.  2 hours of watching someone being brutally tortured. > (Two reviews said that it would be rated NC-17 if it wasn’t about > Christ.)  

I wish it were rated NC 17.  People are bringing their kids.  =:-0

Response:

"Doug Anderson" <ethelthe…@yahoo.com> wrote in message

news:Ocv%b.413342$xy6.2344453@attbi_s02… > Cari{P} <Cari{P}> writes: > > jbrianchamberlin wrote: > > > Good Lord!!! One day the news server is working fine and the next the > > > bozo’s at Adelphia go and change it up on me. Took me over 2 weeks to > > > find out what happened. > > > Okay, there is no way in hell I’m going to go back and read 2000 > > > posts > > > for the past 2 weeks.  So how is everyone? Still alive and breathing? > > > Anyone going to go see Passion of the Christ? I’m sure it’s been > > > talked about to some extent around here.  I’ve always struggled with > > > my own Christianity but I do plan on seeing the film. > > > Anyway… just wanted to say hi. –Brian

Hi, Brian. > > Passion of the Christ won’t come to our area.. it’s too intellectual > The reviews I’ve read say it isn’t intellectual at all.  Rather it is > about violence.  2 hours of watching someone being brutally tortured. > (Two reviews said that it would be rated NC-17 if it wasn’t about > Christ.)

The best message to tale from this movie was what Dave Ross, a local liberal talk show host who is Catholic, found.  The message he saw in the movie, and I also found, is a dedication to not fighting violence with more violence.  (This IS a politically liberal message. Superficial conflicts between liberals and Christians tend to hide how much of a common history they have.) As a parent and for myself, I tend to avoid violence more than sex or cursing.  That this movie is not rated NC-17 illustrates that this society’s priorities are different from mine. — Tsam

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Good Lord!!! One day the news server is working fine and the next the bozo’s at Adelphia go and change it up on me. Took me over 2 weeks to find out what happened. Okay, there is no way in hell I’m going to go back and read 2000 posts for the past 2 weeks.  So how is everyone? Still alive and breathing? Anyone going to go see Passion of the Christ? I’m sure it’s been talked about to some extent around here.  I’ve always struggled with my own Christianity but I do plan on seeing the film. Anyway… just wanted to say hi. –Brian

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I really don't know what to do. Please help…

Question:

. Nope.   Sometimes they *know* better, but they just don’t *do* it.

Are you sure we’re speaking the same language?

Response:

. Nope.   Sometimes they *know* better, but they just don’t *do* it. Are you sure we’re speaking the same language?

To be perfectly honest Yoop, no.    Now you’ve got ME totally confused!   Of course, there are only 2 lines above, so it’s kinda hard to tell – especially with my memory.

Response:

Here is the COMPLETE post, Yoop, not the 2 line version.   Perhaps now we can get get somewhere… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Howard, a lot of the problem in posts like yours is that believe it or not we DO have a lot of trolls here who do like to make things up. So, let’s assume your post is sincere. And if you think any of us have ANY answers as to why people do what they do and how to fix it all then you have overestimated us. Everyone here is just a human being trying to make it through the day the best way they know how. The "best" way?    Well, I don’t know about that.    You’re being too benevolent. Perhaps the "only way", or the "most comfortable way", would be more accurate.    Let’s not be too noble here, not when it comes down to humans.    Save that nobility for the Gods. Talk about myopic… Bill, the entire phrase was, "…the best way **they know how**" <shakes head The problem is becoming clearer. Nope.   Sometimes they *know* better, but they just don’t *do* it.

Response:

Yes, you should move on, because your wife has serious problems. Sounds like she isn’t willing to fix them either. Try to get full custody of the kids so she doesn’t mess them up too.

Response:

<slaps forehead One of the definitions of insanity is doing the same thing over, and expecting a different outcome. I’ve already done this Bill, and I don’t expect that you’ll pay any more attention to what Denise said than you did before. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Here is the COMPLETE post, Yoop, not the 2 line version.   Perhaps now we can get get somewhere… Howard, a lot of the problem in posts like yours is that believe it or not we DO have a lot of trolls here who do like to make things up. So, let’s assume your post is sincere. And if you think any of us have ANY answers as to why people do what they do and how to fix it all then you have overestimated us. Everyone here is just a human being trying to make it through the day the best way they know how. The "best" way?    Well, I don’t know about that.    You’re being too benevolent. Perhaps the "only way", or the "most comfortable way", would be more accurate.    Let’s not be too noble here, not when it comes down to humans.    Save that nobility for the Gods. Talk about myopic… Bill, the entire phrase was, "…the best way **they know how**" <shakes head The problem is becoming clearer. Nope.   Sometimes they *know* better, but they just don’t *do* it.

Response:

First of all, my condolences on what many of us in the group know to be a super stressful and scary time.  You have a TON of things piled on you at once,  and your reactions to it sound completely rational and to be expected.   Many people have been through what you’ve gone through.  I personally went through the wife having an affair, as well as being led away in handcuffs after her affair (despite not starting any argument, much less touching her).  But I didn’t have to deal with finding out my child really isn’t mine.  What I went through put me just about to my breaking point, I cant imagine how much harder it is with that extra stress added on.   I think the most important thing you can do for yourself right now is to get a GOOD divorce attorney. Many will give free consults, visit a few of them and go with one you trust and feel is competent.  You have a whole array of things, custody and maintenance of ‘James’, to the co-op you and your wife have, that need to be addressed by someone who knows the law and will be ‘on your side’.  I think it’s the most important thing for you to do right now … BY FAR!   and allow yourself this time to grieve.  it really is a grieving process for people, and takes a while to get over.  two years later, there are still certain things that can set me off, but things do get better over time … sorry, Rob —-== Posted via Newsfeed.Com – Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==—- http://www.newsfeed.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 100,000 Newsgroups —= 19 East/West-Coast Specialized Servers – Total Privacy via Encryption =—

Response:

says… hair. "Genetics man, genetics.  Come on, get a grip, don’t be so paranoid." I would think to myself.   But what if I’m not the biological father??  I have to know now.  But I was afraid to find out.  I decided to order a home DNA test.  I figured It’ll dispel my doubts, give me peace of mind and I won’t even tell Tanya I did it.    It took me a month after receiving the kit to actually get the samples from myself and my son because I was so afraid.  After 14 long days I called the lab and asked for the results.

I haven’t heard of a home DNA test. Where can you get one? go to her mother’s house so she called the cops on me.  Her report was that I harassing her on the job and that I  threatened her.   The cops come,  I answer the door, before I can utter a "but" I’m placed under arrest.  I have never been in trouble with the law, ever.  Imagine the humiliation as I am led out of my building in cuffs, in full view of neighbors and passers-by like some common criminal.  They placed me in a holding cell and inform me that they have to tell my wife they arrested me because she stated in her

I find it hard to believe a person can be arrested that easily. We have a belligerent drunk that lives down the street. In front of other people, he threatened to shoot my youngest son in the back of the head. The police wouldn’t do anything about it. And you get arrested? (I called the police because if this guy even lays a hand on my son, I’m the one the police will be coming for).

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Howard, a lot of the problem in posts like yours is that believe it or not we DO have a lot of trolls here who do like to make things up. So, let’s assume your post is sincere. And if you think any of us have ANY answers as to why people do what they do and how to fix it all then you have overestimated us. Everyone here is just a human being trying to make it through the day the best way they know how. The "best" way?    Well, I don’t know about that.    You’re being too benevolent. Perhaps the "only way", or the "most comfortable way", would be more accurate.    Let’s not be too noble here, not when it comes down to humans.    Save that nobility for the Gods.

Talk about myopic… Bill, the entire phrase was, "…the best way **they know how**" <shakes head The problem is becoming clearer.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Howard, a lot of the problem in posts like yours is that believe it or not we DO have a lot of trolls here who do like to make things up. So, let’s assume your post is sincere. And if you think any of us have ANY answers as to why people do what they do and how to fix it all then you have overestimated us. Everyone here is just a human being trying to make it through the day the best way they know how. The "best" way?    Well, I don’t know about that.    You’re being too benevolent. Perhaps the "only way", or the "most comfortable way", would be more accurate.    Let’s not be too noble here, not when it comes down to humans.    Save that nobility for the Gods. Talk about myopic… Bill, the entire phrase was, "…the best way **they know how**" <shakes head The problem is becoming clearer.

Nope.   Sometimes they *know* better, but they just don’t *do* it.

Response:

Howard, a lot of the problem in posts like yours is that believe it or not we DO have a lot of trolls here who do like to make things up. So, let’s assume your post is sincere. And if you think any of us have ANY answers as to why people do what they do and how to fix it all then you have overestimated us. Everyone here is just a human being trying to make it through the day the best way they know how.

The "best" way?    Well, I don’t know about that.    You’re being too benevolent. Perhaps the "only way", or the "most comfortable way", would be more accurate.    Let’s not be too noble here, not when it comes down to humans.    Save that nobility for the Gods.

Response:

Hi Howard, I never thought I’d be writing to a newsgroup but I’m feeling so fucked up right now.

Naw, you’re not fucked up, you’re normal. 50% of the rest of the world is fucked up and they think they’re normal. ——   snip Howard’s story —– Typical story, happens all the time. Boy, your soon-to-be-ex is a real shit, In My Humble Opinion. Too bad there’s no punishment for that. Instead, as you have seen, that behavior will be rewarded. Get used to it.  Should I just move on and hope for the best? Do I need balls?

Well, perhaps you do need balls, but not in this situation. You would be better off if you had tits instead. Save what you can. Protect your relationship with your kids, and protect your kids and protect yourself. And when you finally get this fruitloop out of your life you will be MUCH happer, take my word for it. Better days a comin’ Howard. Just stop hurting yourself. Good luck – Fido – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –  Please reply Thank You, Howard

Response:

Howard, a lot of the problem in posts like yours is that believe it or not we DO have a lot of trolls here who do like to make things up. So, let’s assume your post is sincere. A lot of the questions you ask are better directed to your attorney. Laws are very jurisidiction specific and it is unwise to get legal advice on a newsgroup on the internet. Your attorney will spend more time explaining WHY things are not what you heard on the internet than will be helpful for anyone. So, take the legal questions to the attorney. The one thing that everyone in the group has in common is the loss and the feeling of hopelessness. Everyone has been there and can tell you that it takes time to get through it. My suggestion would be to use the group more for emotional support as opposed to any kind of legal advice. And if you think any of us have ANY answers as to why people do what they do and how to fix it all then you have overestimated us. Everyone here is just a human being trying to make it through the day the best way they know how. Denise – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Howard … Best you listen to Denise. Get a lawyer. I’ve got this ‘thing’ about supporting kids that are Not those of the Father whose name they carry. Your wife’s ‘friend’ Dave, can support him, and you can still have/see him as your son. I don’t know how you’d feel about that, but it wouldn’t lose me a minutes sleep. That is gonna be (in my view) the biggest ‘thing’ standing in your way, until you deal, or learn to deal with it. You’ve been decieved for years now. You know that, and so do we. Your language in reference to your wife tells us that. It also tells us that you’ve still some pride left. Any woman that cold and calculating deserves to be treated with caution. It’s "all business" when it comes to her. Let your lawyer "take care of business" for you. You may damn well end up a lot better off than you think, if NY is not a no fault state. Just remember, the first one to file has the advantage. In a case like this, DO NOT let her take the lead. And do not ‘wimp out’ from now on. good luck nm It really let’s me know just how fucked up my situation is when I turn to a divorce newsgroup where some of the most saddest stories are told and I get accused of trolling. Believe you me, I am no troll.   And yes Denise, I do have an attorney. Thanks to you too nm for your input.  The sheer fact that my story seems "made up" to some of you makes me feel even more depressed, but it has also shed new light on what I should do.   When other people in the divorce arena respond to your story with comments like, "best troll-story that I’ve seen" and "well-written",  you know you’ve been fucked over royally by the one who promised to love you forever.  I sort of feel like a fool for coming here now, but it has been helpful too, as it has given me an opportunity to release some hurt.                                       Thanks                                         H

Response:

I never thought I’d be writing to a newsgroup but I’m feeling so fucked up right now.   I’ve been reading some of the posts here.  I really need you guys and gals right now

Howard, Didn’t get your original post, but saw the responses come in, and your response saying "I am not a troll."  I’ll bite, seeing as it is irrelevant if you are or aren’t. I read your post, feel the pain.  It is extremely tough when what you thought was a family blows up in front of your eyes.  Strange even.  Missed whether or not "ashley" is your bio daughter or not. First of all, I come at this with a variety of biases, as do we all, so take those into account (google is your friend).  No, I have not been through what you have been through.  But I have kids (3) and they are precious to me (F*ck off Bill), like yours are precious to you.  You seem to be reeling, which is probably really normal.  I’m going to just give you my thoughts . . . one of the maxims here is take what you want and leave the rest. Kids: Alright, if I got this straight, "James" is not yours, "Ashley" is. However, you have developed a bond to both, which is perfectly normal. People will make a great deal about "Well hey, he’s not the bio father, so WTF."  To me, that is BS, because WTF is that these kids are just that, kids, and to them, you are ‘Dad.’  People that say, "well,they ain’t yours" miss the point that they are still kids (‘cuse me while I wretch).  That being said, you have to seperate the emotional responsibilities from being a "father" and "paying the frieght."  Not because you don’t want to feel like you are being taken for a ride, but because they are seperate issues. I believe (not a lawyer, and I think you mentioned you had one) that because you have just recently found out about this, based upon suspecting, you probably have the right to rebut.  Denise is right (as usual), make sure you huddle with your lawyer on this.  But you should be able to say, "Not mine, no child support required." Now, I see a whole bunch of angles on this, and I think, the kids are your toughest dilemma.  First, you can relieve yourself of the future pressure (financial) because he (and Ashley?) are not your kids.  Okay, that’s fine. But, second, you have bonded to them (good for you) and want to continue that relationship with them (yes?).  That is in juxtaposition to your #1 issue there.  A bonus issue (and I say bonus in the fact that this is nothing to consider unless you lean in one direction, and then it is a bonus . . . *not a deciding factor*) is that, iperhapsi your stbx does not want contact between you and the kids, and it would tweak her.  Doubtful, given that she is bringing them over, but hey, where you can get mileage for free, why not. Anyway, best case scenario seems that you are not obligated from paying child maintenance (different from actually paying it) and you have access to the kids.  Perhaps you and your attorney can accomplish this, but it will take understanding where your ex or stbx is.  If she could care less about money and just wants you out, you have one issue, if she potentially thinks she is getting money, then a settlement is possible . . . i.e. you pay something, I don’t know, under contract, and have the kids.  Make this ironclad, because, from experience, she won’t live up to it. As to visitation, emotionally, they are your kids.  You know, if you are going to pay child support and, more importantly, if you really are attached to them, then demand 50% of the time.  Hell, don’t accept less.  Your wife, I would guess, cannot petition for a change of paternity, because she knew all along that they weren’t yours, so use that to your advantage. Coop: Sell it.  Plain and simple. Sell it.  You don’t want to live there.  Yes, I know you don’t want to take the roof out from over your kids heads, and yes, I know that you still feel for "Tanya," but this is part of the "settlement" above.  Sell it anyway, but agree to split a percentage with her.  As a married person, you’ll have to split 50% of the equity, I would guess, but you are willing to give her 100% of it.  So, trade a percentage of that off . . . visitation with the kids.  Remember, you want time with the kids and to free yourself from the financial hassle (and your own pique?) at paying for it.  What do they say, the screwing you get for the screwing you got, but it looks like you didn’t get much there. Anyway, sell it.  The judge will give 50% to her anyway based upon an 11 year marriage, and the kids will be taken care of via child support.  You will determine whether you want to remain in their lives (above) and will help them in that way. College: Yeah, can completely understand the lack of focus.  You know, if you can, really, stick with it.  You are embarking on your own life, and the degree will help.  Also, do not let her take that away from you.  Talk to you teachers, let them know that this is happening (heck, what I heard is that when you go through something like this, tell everybody (liek the doctors and stuff) because it affects you dramatically). if you can though, stick with it. Child Support: Okay, this was a note.  I think I covered this for you, or at least what I feel on this. "Dave" Getting off Scot free: Who cares?  Sure, I know that you are reeling on this, but one of the most important things to do is to determine your priorities.  Some of the people that responded to you (if you’ve read some history in here) are very prone to tell people to (rightfully so) move on.  My case (if you care)?  I should have moved on before I did.  I tried, to my detriment, to keep it together after she did a Houdini.  Fooked me thoroughly because I was a "nice" guy (there you go Mike).  You are going to run smack up into your emotions. Very normal from what I have read and experienced myself.  But, what are your priorities?  Kids. Money.  That’s it.  Determine whether you want them to live with you full time, but you know, who cares, have them split the time between the two of you.  Forget about him.  He cheated on his wife, slept with a married woman, really, I know it galls you (believe me, it would gall me too, consolidating bills together, give me a break).  Do whatever you can to just place him out of your mind.  Each time he pops back in, "Not My Problem" is the mantra. Why feeling guilty for selling the home underneath her Another note from reading your post.  You feel guilty because of the kids and the residual attachment to your stbx (and really, she really should be your ex, which is always tough).  But, change the goalposts.  Don’t sell it out from under the kids feet, get a deal that works all around.  Listen, the vast majority of people who go through this see a marked decline of their financial circumstances (me: CEO to bankrupt).  By selling, you are actually being prudent for your kids. Dave not moving in Again, who cares.  This guy is irrelevant, save on an emotional level.  Get a punching bag, put a picture of him on it, and beat the crap out of it (but not him).  Hey, could I send you a picture of my ex-MIL (just in case my ex’s solicitors have gotten wise and are actually reading this group)? You know, you might be a troll, and if so, well, you got a couple of pages of text from me.  I don’t think you are (the story is too long, and to well formed, and too much detail that ties together), but if you are, congrats. This is what I would do.  you have to remember that from her standpoint, it is business, plain and simple.  From your standpoint, you are still emotionally wrapped up in the whole thing.  I understand that, but you have to seperate it out. You might find it helpful to, now that you have posted a full blown version, as you move throug this to break-up your thoughts into discrete areas, and post on those (such as "Gawd, I feel terrible because I don’t get to see my kids each day" or whatever). To me, kids are really important.  The stupidity that we adults go through to damage them boggles the mind.  We go out and protest the war in Iraq, or the destruction of the rainforests of Brazil, but think nothing of trashing our children and putting them in situations where their worlds are destroyed.  Nice.  Selfish too. Anyway, dems me thoughts. Rambler

Response:

I never thought  something like this could render me, Mr. Strongman, to a pathetic whimpering punk of a man.

You don’t sound like that to me. You’ve taken a sucker punch to the gut. I wouldn’t continue to look for reasons to justify her actions, if what you say is true, she doesn’t give squat what you think or feel. It sounds unbearable. Use the love that you have for your kids to help you though. Good Luck

Response:

 Do I need balls?    Please reply

Dude. Here,…shot of Cuervo. Down it. If you have a firearm,…get rid of it. Call a good lawyer now. Here,…’nother shot of Cuervo. Janie, if you read this,…e-mail me. Howard,…here’s the bottle. Don’t drive.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Howard … Best you listen to Denise. Get a lawyer. I’ve got this ‘thing’ about supporting kids that are Not those of the Father whose name they carry. Your wife’s ‘friend’ Dave, can support him, and you can still have/see him as your son. I don’t know how you’d feel about that, but it wouldn’t lose me a minutes sleep. That is gonna be (in my view) the biggest ‘thing’ standing in your way, until you deal, or learn to deal with it. You’ve been decieved for years now. You know that, and so do we. Your language in reference to your wife tells us that. It also tells us that you’ve still some pride left. Any woman that cold and calculating deserves to be treated with caution. It’s "all business" when it comes to her. Let your lawyer "take care of business" for you. You may damn well end up a lot better off than you think, if NY is not a no fault state. Just remember, the first one to file has the advantage. In a case like this, DO NOT let her take the lead. And do not ‘wimp out’ from now on. good luck nm It really let’s me know just how fucked up my situation is when I turn to

a divorce newsgroup where some of the most saddest stories are told and I get accused of trolling. Believe you me, I am no troll.   And yes Denise, I do have an attorney. Thanks to you too nm for your input.  The sheer fact that my story seems "made up" to some of you makes me feel even more depressed, but it has also shed new light on what I should do.   When other people in the divorce arena respond to your story with comments like, "best troll-story that I’ve seen" and "well-written",  you know you’ve been fucked over royally by the one who promised to love you forever.  I sort of feel like a fool for coming here now, but it has been helpful too, as it has given me an opportunity to release some hurt.                                       Thanks                                         H

Response:

Roger B. said for all posterity… I never thought I’d be writing to a newsgroup but I’m feeling so fucked up right now.   I’ve been reading some of the posts here.  I really need you guys and gals right now If you are a troll, this is one the best troll-stories that I’ve seen.

That was my thought as I read… and read… and read.  Either way, it was very well written. If you are for real, as Denise said, get thee to an attorney.  [R]

With appropriate apologies to Quaker Oats, that attorney should say, "There’s nothing better for thee than me".     Casey "I’d kill for a Nobel Peace Prize."                             -Steven Wright

Response:

"The Dave

About Divorce …

Question:

Why are they so expensive? nm

Response:

Because they are worth it? Denise

  Why are they so expensive?   nm

Response:

Why are they so expensive? nm

Think about it this way… Something worthwhile is either 1) very difficult or 2) very expensive (usually)… A marriage costs about $30 to get into (marriage license) A divorce costs about $30,000 …. I’ll leave the rest as an excersize for the reader. -Michael

Response:

Mike … The way I heard it was: Marriage. Thirty $ down, and your paycheck for the rest of your life. nm

Response:

Because there was (really) no other choice, given what’s out there? Because they are worth it? Denise

Why are they so expensive? nm

Response:

Because divorce lawyers need to send their kids to Harvard, all expenses paid? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Because they are worth it? Denise Why are they so expensive? nm

Response:

Because they are worth it?

                mmmmmm mmm … good to the last drop Denise  Why are they so expensive?  nm

_  <*{{{<<  <*{{{<<  <*{{{<<  <*{{{<<  <*{{{<<  <*{{{<<  <*{{{<<       Why doesn’t DOS ever say "EXCELLENT command or filename"?

Response:

Why are they so expensive? nm —

because lawyers know they can suck you dry and rape America’s children of their happiness.

Response:

They don’t have to be expensive. If you’re *smart* about it, you’ll both do better in the end.. Otherwise, only the lawyers win.

Response:

They don’t have to be expensive. If you’re *smart* about it, you’ll both do better in the end.. Otherwise, only the lawyers win.

Always.   And we’re paying for it in society.   Looked at your medical insurance premiums recently?

Response:

Because they are worth it? Well, yeah, I guess so…    Especially when the divorce attorney’s pull in $30,000 for a single case.  You bet they think it’s worth it!

Why are they so expensive? nm

Response:

Ryan,… you have to stop listening to Bill.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Why are they so expensive? nm — because lawyers know they can suck you dry and rape America’s children of their happiness.

Response:

link to faq

Question:

Can anyone provide me with a link to the FAQ for this group? -thanks See http://www.altsupportdivorce.org/ and click on FAQ.

this gets there in one http://www.altsupportdivorce.org/faq.html but without the frameset. bogey

Response:

I beat u, by one minute

It’s not who gets there first, it’s who lasts the longest.  

Response:

I beat u, by one minute It’s not who gets there first, it’s who lasts the longest.  

Well then, my post was the biggest, and therefore the longest as  I included the entire faq, and at least it appeared on my server first, so . . . . Rambler

Response:

You do that. – said: Can anyone provide me with a link to the FAQ for this group? -thanks See http://www.altsupportdivorce.org/ and click on FAQ. Best wishes.

– Strontium "It’s no surprise, to me.  I am my own worst enemy.  `Cause every now, and then, I kick the livin’ shit `outta me." – Lit

Response:

I beat u, by one minute It’s not who gets there first, it’s who lasts the longest.   Well then, my post was the biggest, and therefore the longest as  I included the entire faq, and at least it appeared on my server first, so . . . . Rambler

I wasn’t talkin about the post, but…..well, nevermind.    I’m too shy to go there.

Response:

You do that. – Jack_NJ stood up at show-n-tell, in Can anyone provide me with a link to the FAQ for this group? -thanks See http://www.altsupportdivorce.org/ and click on FAQ. Best wishes.

Google shows you to have preceeded me by one minute, zero seconds. Congratulations. Of course, mine was the first to not only point to http://www.altsupportdivorce.org/ but also to instruct a click on the subtle FAQ link there. — Jack in NJ

Response:

- said: – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – You do that. – Jack_NJ stood up at show-n-tell, in Can anyone provide me with a link to the FAQ for this group? -thanks See http://www.altsupportdivorce.org/ and click on FAQ. Best wishes. Google shows you to have preceeded me by one minute, zero seconds. Congratulations. Of course, mine was the first to not only point to http://www.altsupportdivorce.org/ but also to instruct a click on the subtle FAQ link there.

ROFL!  I thought about that…then looked at the page again….the word FAQ almost leapt out, at me.  I hadn’t considered that OP could be blind — Strontium "It’s no surprise, to me.  I am my own worst enemy.  `Cause every now, and then, I kick the livin’ shit `outta me." – Lit

Response:

I’ll check google later to get an unbiased opinion of the time (since our respective PC clocks may be inaccurate.)

Actually, I just checked google for something else, and found a post sent on September 29 and answered by somebody on September 23.  So I am not sure if google is the penultimate source.  YMMV Rambler

Response:

I’ll check google later to get an unbiased opinion of the time (since our respective PC clocks may be inaccurate.) Actually, I just checked google for something else, and found a post sent on September 29 and answered by somebody on September 23.  So I am not sure if google is the penultimate source.  YMMV Rambler

That’s just a time warp, Rambler.   It has been known to happen.    Trust me, I know.

Response:

That’s just a time warp, Rambler.   It has been known to happen.    Trust me, I know.

Now THAT’S funny!

Response:

I’ll check google later to get an unbiased opinion of the time (since our respective PC clocks may be inaccurate.) Jack in NJ – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I beat u, by one minute – Jack_NJ stood up at show-n-tell, in Can anyone provide me with a link to the FAQ for this group? -thanks See http://www.altsupportdivorce.org/ and click on FAQ. Best wishes.

Response:

I beat u, by one minute – said: Can anyone provide me with a link to the FAQ for this group? -thanks See http://www.altsupportdivorce.org/ and click on FAQ. Best wishes.

– Strontium "It’s no surprise, to me.  I am my own worst enemy.  `Cause every now, and then, I kick the livin’ shit `outta me." – Lit

Response:

Can anyone provide me with a link to the FAQ for this group? -thanks

See http://www.altsupportdivorce.org/ and click on FAQ. Best wishes. — Jack in NJ

Response:

Can anyone provide me with a link to the FAQ for this group? -thanks

On the website – www.altsupportdivorce.org, or below: The original FAQ written by Keith Woods can still be found in the core of this FAQ below. Keith moved on (got a life!) more or less in 2001, and the FAQ is now maintained, and periodically updated, by those readers/posters who continue to particiapte in the newsgroup, though we all come and go at some point. Many thanks to Keith for his years of contributions to ASD, and for authoring and regularly posting the FAQ. We hope we do you justice in our maintenance of it. Table of Contents 1. A.S.D Introduction (What the group is for, how it started, what it is not for, Common Acronyms and Terms) 2. Divorce (Basic Questions of what it is, Grounds, and generalized info of the process, kits, etc.) 3. The Kids (Consequences, Custody, Counseling) 4. Revenge! (Why it is such a bad idea, and why we don’t want to hear about it) 5. Emotions and Resources (What you may be feeling, how to deal with the feelings, where to go for help) 6. Trolling, and Provocatuers (Trolling, Gender-Bashing, Spam, and the Usual Suspects) Section 1:   A.S.D Introduction (What the group is for, how it started, what it is not for, Common Acronyms and Terms) Q1.1: What is alt.support.divorce? A1.1: This newsgroup is intended for people who are divorced, divorcing, considering divorce, or affected by divorce (their own or others), or other loss of a long-term romantic relationship even if "legal" divorce is not involved. This includes children and other family members or friends of those directly involved. Q1.2: That’s what it’s for? What is it NOT for? A1.2: a.s.d is NOT for the crossposting of messages from (or to) other newsgroups (so check and trim your headers when you reply!).  It is also not for the posting of binary files (pictures or executable programs.) For some – a jock strap or a miracle bra might be just the support they are looking for. But we don’t provide support for those nuts and boobs. They are advised to take their support needs elsewhere. (For the uninitiated, that is one of the types of humor you will find on ASD – but it is not overall a sarcastic, caustic place where you should fear being flamed and insulted. We just get a little frustrated sometimes with the folks who need serious professional help and get angry that we can’t provide it.) Q1.3: Some of you guys seem mean. I came here for SUPPORT, like the newsgroup name says, and I got chewed on! A1.3: Not all types of support may seem to you to BE support.  While you may have come here intending to have someone stroke your hair and murmur "poor baby," there is a good chance that someone here will feel the need to kick you in the butt to try to get your attention onto something they feel that you should know.   True support of every kind can be found at ASD, but we are all susceptible to getting lost in the self-pity place that keeps us from moving on, or hearing the good advice of others telling us how to move on. That sometimes motivates the "tough love" kind of support. Q1.4: I’m not an expert on divorce, but I think I know what someone else here is going through. Should I offer advice? A1.4: YES! Divorce is usually a very difficult, stressful and demanding period. The people here may be at any stage of the process, and there is generally the full range of viewpoints represented. If you have anything to offer on an issue, it is probably going to benefit SOMEONE. Q1.5: What do all the new acronyms here mean? A1.5: We’ve made up some of our own, that only fit the divorce situation: S2BX: Soon to Be Ex — the person you are divorcing NCP: Non-custodial parent — the one who doesn’t live here anymore CP: Custodial parent — the one who got to keep the kids. SSL: Scum-sucking Lawyer — divorce attorney (either side) XBIL/XSIL: Ex Brother-in-Law/Sister-in-Law (etc.) To find a list of commonly used acronyms for Usenet, go to: Google Groups Usenet Glossary or Tracy & Andrew’s Usenet Acronym Dictionary Section 2:   Divorce (Basic Questions of what it is, Grounds, and generalized info of the process, kits, etc.) Q2.1: I’m having problems in my marriage. Should I get a divorce? A2.1: If you have to ask, the answer is probably NO. However, while it is generally believed that divorce is not a GOOD thing, sometimes it is the BEST thing. There is no "official" newsgroup viewpoint on the subject of divorce. Regular members of this newsgroup come from all sides of the issue — those who filed, those who were filed against, men, women, and children. This is NOT a "safe" place for ANY viewpoint. However, one position which is pretty much accepted by all is that the "Four As" are all justification for divorcing. The Four As are: ABANDONMENT: Your spouse leaves and refuses to come home ABUSE: A pattern of harmful physical or emotional actions taken to control or punish the other spouse, knowing that they are harmful ADDICTION: Dope, booze, whatever ADULTERY: Cheating on the marriage, and not just sexually — turning affections away from spouse toward another is also cheating. Q2.2: What are the legal stages of divorce? A2.2: Divorce is a kind of lawsuit. While the specific process varies from area to area, generally the steps are: One spouse (Petitioner) files papers with the court, stating that the marriage is ruined and asking for certain settlements of property, custody, etc. The other spouse is served with papers, and has a certain period of time to respond (which is why they are called "Respondent"). With no response, the divorce is summarily granted under the terms generally specified by the Petitioner (the court may modify the suit to fit local law). If the Respondent DOES, then a date is set for hearing before the court, just as in any other lawsuit. The judge hears the case then makes a ruling. At this point, such issues as custody of children and settlement of property requests are USUALLY but not always considered and dealt with. Q2.3: What about mediation? A2.3: Mediation, where practical, is generally a better way to settle custody and property arrangements in a divorce. Most judges will accept any settlement offered by mediation as being a binding mutual agreement. Q2.4: I was served papers and told that I can’t go home! How does that work? A2.4: This is called an Order of Protection, and is a common weapon used in divorce. They are usually without basis, but enough of the time they are justified that they are usually granted upon request. There will be a hearing on the issue, but too often the judge will let it remain in effect (think about it — if in doubt, wouldn’t YOU make the safer decision?). If it remains in effect, you will just have to live with it, whether it is right or not. That’s how the system works. Q2.5: I’m getting a divorce, but there is a problem. How do I . . . . . ? A2.5: Divorce law varies from area to area. Any advice given in a.s.d is NOT to be taken as any kind of authority. If you have a specific problem, CONSULT AN ATTORNEY. Q2.6: I don’t want to waste money on a lawyer, so I can do it all myself, right? A2.6: Would you perform your own appendectomy? YOU PROBABLY NEED AN ATTORNEY. "Do It Yourself" divorce is only appropriate where there is NO disagreement on property, custody, etc. — and if you are getting along that well in the divorce, you should try to fix your marriage! Even if you feel that you can’t afford an attorney — FIND A WAY. As a general rule, not having an attorney on your side is the most certain way to LOSE EVERYTHING that your spouse wants to take. Q2.7: I have decided that my marriage is a mistake, and I just want a divorce. What would the consequences be? A2.7: The first consequence is that you may never fully trust yourself again.      Second, you are likely to find that nobody else will ever fully trust your word. After all, if you would walk away from a marriage simply because you considered it a mistake, what promises can you be expected to uphold? And no matter what you say, there will always be some doubt in their minds.      Third, you will probably lose a lot of what you own and what you would have owned.      Fourth, you will never know what your marriage could have been, and (unless you are one of the rare exceptions) there will be nights that you can’t sleep or that you wake up at 2 AM, to wonder if you couldn’t have found SOME way to make it work.      Fifth, you will not be able to completely leave your spouse behind — if there is a child, you will be connected for the rest of your lives. Even without a child, you will think of your spouse now and then, wishing that you could share something that they would have especially appreciated, or each time something happens or you hear something that was special to you during your relationship.      Sixth, you may spend the next few years paying a large proportion of your wages in child support, while at the same time having very limited access to your children (perhaps even NO access), who may suddenly move across country. You may find that your kids start calling another person Mom or Dad, and that they will spend years — or their entire lives — blaming you for tearing apart their family. If you are awarded custody, you may have to hold your children each night as they cry and ask why Mommy / Daddy can’t come home. Your career prospects may be greatly reduced by child care responsibilities which were previously shared.      In essence, whatever it is that you think you will gain, you are not likely to get quite what you think you will. Often, you will lose far more than it is worth.       Spencer W Kimball wrote that, whatever the problem in your marriage that is leading you to consider divorce, you will have to fix it before you will have a marriage that works — so why not fix it for THIS marriage instead of the NEXT one?

… read more »

Response:

Can anyone provide me with a link to the FAQ for this group? -thanks

Response:

http://www.altsupportdivorce.org – Can anyone provide me with a link to the FAQ for this group? -thanks

– Strontium "It’s no surprise, to me.  I am my own worst enemy.  `Cause every now, and then, I kick the livin’ shit `outta me." – Lit

Response:

Advice for daughter in Georgia getting divorce

Question:

Last week my daughter(31) called to say husband of seven years had left her and wanted a divorce.  This came as a complete surprise. There was no indication of discontent before the announcement.   He has moved out of their house.  It is my guess he has another "relationship" going but this is only a guess on my part. Thankfully they have no children.  They also have no assets, just debts.  They bought a home less than a year ago.  At this point my daughter is (rightly) disgusted with her husband and wants a divorce. My question, does my daughter need a divorce attorney in this case? As I understand the facts: 1.  In Georgia, either parity may file for divorce by submitting the paper work at the county court house.  The forms are available on the internet. 2.  My daughter is a nurse and in the past has been the major income provider while her husband was in trade school.  Now they have about the same salaries.  Alimony is not likely. 3. Since there are no children or assets, the benefit of a lawyer would be in the adjustment of the debts.  (Is their anything else?). 4.  If the lawyer is able to loaded him up with debt, he can always leave the state,  civil orders, other than child support, do not go over state lines, or file bankrupt.  He could also loose his job or get a new job making less money.  In such an event, my daughter,   who cosigned the loans, would be on the hook to repay the loans.  It would be a real hassle and an ongoing legal expense to haul him to court for non paument. My daughter wants to keep the house for now, and does not want to file for bankrupt.  I think the best path is to negotiate a fair sharing of the debts and "hope" the guy will keep the commitment. I would appreciate any comments. New York Father

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Last week my daughter(31) called to say husband of seven years had left her and wanted a divorce.  This came as a complete surprise. There was no indication of discontent before the announcement.   He has moved out of their house.  It is my guess he has another "relationship" going but this is only a guess on my part. Thankfully they have no children.  They also have no assets, just debts.  They bought a home less than a year ago.  At this point my daughter is (rightly) disgusted with her husband and wants a divorce. My question, does my daughter need a divorce attorney in this case? As I understand the facts: 1.  In Georgia, either parity may file for divorce by submitting the paper work at the county court house.  The forms are available on the internet. 2.  My daughter is a nurse and in the past has been the major income provider while her husband was in trade school.  Now they have about the same salaries.  Alimony is not likely. 3. Since there are no children or assets, the benefit of a lawyer would be in the adjustment of the debts.  (Is their anything else?). 4.  If the lawyer is able to loaded him up with debt, he can always leave the state,  civil orders, other than child support, do not go over state lines, or file bankrupt.  He could also loose his job or get a new job making less money.  In such an event, my daughter,   who cosigned the loans, would be on the hook to repay the loans.  It would be a real hassle and an ongoing legal expense to haul him to court for non paument. My daughter wants to keep the house for now, and does not want to file for bankrupt. I think the best path is to negotiate a fair sharing of the debts and "hope" the guy will keep the commitment. I would appreciate any comments.

I worked for a divorce attorney in Georgia for a while. Too bad I can’t advise on something like this, but that’s how the system works.

Response:

I did my own divorce, but then, I’m a lawyer (although not in family law).  Other laypersons here have done their own as well.  I believe it is possible for reasonably astute and articulate people to do their own, but they need to understand the purpose and use of the legal forms involved.  One of those is a marriage settlement agreement which divies up the assets and liabilities. If she knows the difference between joint & individual liability, between secured & unsecured debt, and knows what the balance and payments due for each, then it should be possible for her reach a settlement without as lawyer.  He and she can draw up a schedule of who is to pay for what, and a lawyer could be used only to check it as to style and form.  [Roger] – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Last week my daughter(31) called to say husband of seven years had left her and wanted a divorce.  This came as a complete surprise. There was no indication of discontent before the announcement.  He has moved out of their house.  It is my guess he has another "relationship" going but this is only a guess on my part. Thankfully they have no children.  They also have no assets, just debts.  They bought a home less than a year ago.  At this point my daughter is (rightly) disgusted with her husband and wants a divorce. My question, does my daughter need a divorce attorney in this case? As I understand the facts: 1.  In Georgia, either parity may file for divorce by submitting the paper work at the county court house.  The forms are available on the internet. 2.  My daughter is a nurse and in the past has been the major income provider while her husband was in trade school.  Now they have about the same salaries.  Alimony is not likely. 3. Since there are no children or assets, the benefit of a lawyer would be in the adjustment of the debts.  (Is their anything else?). 4.  If the lawyer is able to loaded him up with debt, he can always leave the state,  civil orders, other than child support, do not go over state lines, or file bankrupt.  He could also loose his job or get a new job making less money.  In such an event, my daughter, who cosigned the loans, would be on the hook to repay the loans. It would be a real hassle and an ongoing legal expense to haul him to court for non paument. My daughter wants to keep the house for now, and does not want to file for bankrupt.  I think the best path is to negotiate a fair sharing of the debts and "hope" the guy will keep the commitment. I would appreciate any comments. New York Father

Response:

I did my own divorce, but then, I’m a lawyer (although not in family law).  Other laypersons here have done their own as well.  I believe it is possible for reasonably astute and articulate people to do their own, but they need to understand the purpose and use of the legal forms involved.  One of those is a marriage settlement agreement which divies up the assets and liabilities. If she knows the difference between joint & individual liability, between secured & unsecured debt, and knows what the balance and payments due for each, then it should be possible for her reach a settlement without as lawyer.  He and she can draw up a schedule of who is to pay for what, and a lawyer could be used only to check it as to style and form.  [Roger]

Rog, what about the other aspects of debt and whatnot.  You all mention quit-claim deeds quite a bit in here vis-a-vis the house.  Is it possible to remove oneself from a co-signed loan through a divorce, or not.  Would a quick consultation be a thought to address those aspects. Rambler (who’s also doing his own divorce, but doesn’t really have a clue) – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Last week my daughter(31) called to say husband of seven years had left her and wanted a divorce.  This came as a complete surprise. There was no indication of discontent before the announcement.  He has moved out of their house.  It is my guess he has another "relationship" going but this is only a guess on my part. Thankfully they have no children.  They also have no assets, just debts.  They bought a home less than a year ago.  At this point my daughter is (rightly) disgusted with her husband and wants a divorce. My question, does my daughter need a divorce attorney in this case? As I understand the facts: 1.  In Georgia, either parity may file for divorce by submitting the paper work at the county court house.  The forms are available on the internet. 2.  My daughter is a nurse and in the past has been the major income provider while her husband was in trade school.  Now they have about the same salaries.  Alimony is not likely. 3. Since there are no children or assets, the benefit of a lawyer would be in the adjustment of the debts.  (Is their anything else?). 4.  If the lawyer is able to loaded him up with debt, he can always leave the state,  civil orders, other than child support, do not go over state lines, or file bankrupt.  He could also loose his job or get a new job making less money.  In such an event, my daughter, who cosigned the loans, would be on the hook to repay the loans. It would be a real hassle and an ongoing legal expense to haul him to court for non paument. My daughter wants to keep the house for now, and does not want to file for bankrupt.  I think the best path is to negotiate a fair sharing of the debts and "hope" the guy will keep the commitment. I would appreciate any comments. New York Father

Response:

"Rambler" wrote… Rog, what about the other aspects of debt and whatnot.  You all mention quit-claim deeds quite a bit in here vis-a-vis the house. Is it possible to remove oneself from a co-signed loan through a divorce, or not.  Would a quick consultation be a thought to address those aspects.

Of course, a legal consult on their arrangements is preferable. A divorce does not affect one’s contractual obligation to repay a creditor.  The creditor is not a party in the case.  The court may assign responsibilities for payment as between the parties, but it cannot modify the rights of a creditor to enforce the debt against whoever signed the instrument.  The person who must rely on the other to repay a joint debt can be left holding the bag, if the other files bankruptcy or becomes "financially embarressed."  For that reason, he or she should have some assurance that it will be done. Whoever gets the house should also get a quiclaim deed. Office supply stores, some clerks of court and internet have forms, but different jurisdicitons have different formats.  A title agency or lawyer can provide the proper format and record it. In exchange, they should either: (1) refinance the house and pay the other their share of the equity; or (2) if they cannot refinance, give the other a second mortgage to     secure payment of the first mortgage and share of the equity     (what one of my brothers did), but I would not advise a client     to accept, but rather to insist on sale of the house.   [Rog']

Response:

Good advice.  I also did my own divorce, it isn’t that difficult as long as both parties are pretty much in agreement. Lori Mc – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I did my own divorce, but then, I’m a lawyer (although not in family law).  Other laypersons here have done their own as well.  I believe it is possible for reasonably astute and articulate people to do their own, but they need to understand the purpose and use of the legal forms involved.  One of those is a marriage settlement agreement which divies up the assets and liabilities. If she knows the difference between joint & individual liability, between secured & unsecured debt, and knows what the balance and payments due for each, then it should be possible for her reach a settlement without as lawyer.  He and she can draw up a schedule of who is to pay for what, and a lawyer could be used only to check it as to style and form.  [Roger] Last week my daughter(31) called to say husband of seven years had left her and wanted a divorce.  This came as a complete surprise. There was no indication of discontent before the announcement.  He has moved out of their house.  It is my guess he has another "relationship" going but this is only a guess on my part. Thankfully they have no children.  They also have no assets, just debts.  They bought a home less than a year ago.  At this point my daughter is (rightly) disgusted with her husband and wants a divorce. My question, does my daughter need a divorce attorney in this case? As I understand the facts: 1.  In Georgia, either parity may file for divorce by submitting the paper work at the county court house.  The forms are available on the internet. 2.  My daughter is a nurse and in the past has been the major income provider while her husband was in trade school.  Now they have about the same salaries.  Alimony is not likely. 3. Since there are no children or assets, the benefit of a lawyer would be in the adjustment of the debts.  (Is their anything else?). 4.  If the lawyer is able to loaded him up with debt, he can always leave the state,  civil orders, other than child support, do not go over state lines, or file bankrupt.  He could also loose his job or get a new job making less money.  In such an event, my daughter, who cosigned the loans, would be on the hook to repay the loans. It would be a real hassle and an ongoing legal expense to haul him to court for non paument. My daughter wants to keep the house for now, and does not want to file for bankrupt.  I think the best path is to negotiate a fair sharing of the debts and "hope" the guy will keep the commitment. I would appreciate any comments. New York Father

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Last week my daughter(31) called to say husband of seven years had left her and wanted a divorce.  This came as a complete surprise. There was no indication of discontent before the announcement.   He has moved out of their house.  It is my guess he has another "relationship" going but this is only a guess on my part. Thankfully they have no children.  They also have no assets, just debts.  They bought a home less than a year ago.  At this point my daughter is (rightly) disgusted with her husband and wants a divorce. My question, does my daughter need a divorce attorney in this case? As I understand the facts: 1.  In Georgia, either parity may file for divorce by submitting the paper work at the county court house.  The forms are available on the internet. 2.  My daughter is a nurse and in the past has been the major income provider while her husband was in trade school.  Now they have about the same salaries.  Alimony is not likely. 3. Since there are no children or assets, the benefit of a lawyer would be in the adjustment of the debts.  (Is their anything else?). 4.  If the lawyer is able to loaded him up with debt, he can always leave the state,  civil orders, other than child support, do not go over state lines, or file bankrupt.  He could also loose his job or get a new job making less money.  In such an event, my daughter,   who cosigned the loans, would be on the hook to repay the loans.  It would be a real hassle and an ongoing legal expense to haul him to court for non paument. My daughter wants to keep the house for now, and does not want to file for bankrupt.  I think the best path is to negotiate a fair sharing of the debts and "hope" the guy will keep the commitment. I would appreciate any comments. New York Father

I know nothing about Georgia, but in Texas, even though you can do it yourself, a lawyer really helps to push it through the system faster. The lawyer also has more experience in negotiating debt.  Perhaps seeing   a mediator first then taking the settlement to the lawyer to file everything.

Response:

Alt Support Divorce (ASD) Frequently Asked Questions (FAQ)

Question:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – It isn’t a private group.   It’s just that some of us might appreciate *some* contributions once in awhile (of which you have made *none*) – not just sniping. U sure? U’re so good at going back and using Google, use it to find my previous posts. Yup, a few of them were sniping at U (U do make it so easy.), but I think there were more than a few where I offered support in the past. In fact, I even think I got a compliment or two from other regulars on my contributions. But, then as *U are perfect* and since U have *never* sniped at anyone here, I’m sure U don’t have to go back. Correct? I’ll let U go back to where U feel comfortable and let U do what you do best here. I’ll not bother U anymore, just enjoy Ur posts, for what they are. My clue is that you are a kill-joy.  I’ll bet that wins you a lot of friends.  BTW, there is a difference between being friends with someone and be-friending someone. Its the difference between hanging out and hanging in. Kill-joy to U, yes. U have no idea of whether anyone here has just been hanging out or hanging in. I have a feeling that many folks here would be afraid to share their full story with U, as they are afraid U would find someplace where where U felt their feelings or opinions were wrong. Then, U’d use that NY pit bull training to hang on while they attempted to make some sense of many of the things U’ve offered, with that great sense of humor. U don’t have to offer an answer to this, but I’m sure U will. U "must" posture Urself for the benefit of others. Can’t let someone get one over on U. U can’t help it. — Objects in the rear view mirror are closer than they appear.

Some remarks of those 2 love birds ( Bill and Roger.B )   My role is [to] point [out] the failure of the government to do it’s job,   that of presenting sufficient evidence to entitle it to a finding of guilt.   We can handle it over here, "Ox Bow Incident" style.   After all, this   is the wild, wild west! —- Courts?  We don’ need no stinkin’ courts! BTW, the WWW was one of my favorite TV shows.   I esp. liked all the good looking women that James & Artimus ran into.  [Rog'] – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

Response:

Kill-joy to U, yes. U have no idea of whether anyone here has just been hanging out or hanging in. I have a feeling that many folks here would be afraid to share their full story with U, as they are afraid U would find someplace where where U felt their feelings or opinions were wrong. Then, U’d use that NY pit bull training to hang on while they attempted to make some sense of many of the things U’ve offered, with that great sense of humor. U don’t have to offer an answer to this, but I’m sure U will. U "must" posture Urself for the benefit of others. Can’t let someone get one over on U. U can’t help it.

I’ll prove /your/ point by saying:  (1) I would be more than happy to reside in your kill-file. (2) Whatever you’re on, could I have some? [R]

Response:

I feel a new one hour TV show coming on…..ASD Police, Gone WILD! Lori Mc

How did you put it . . .mfarootl? Rambler (um, that’s rotflmao all mixed up . . . .) – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – In article This should be posted on the ASD website, not here, right? If my posting it here offends, let me know.  I’ll ignore you. Rambler Hey man!   That was a 35 KB download!   Som of us pah folk out heres in the bayou are still on a dial up modem.    Anyway, don’t worry about it – I’m sure you’re not.   The amazing thing was that you then uploaded it all, to send back a one sentence explanation, to the NG. Does your newsreader not offer you the capability to "not" download a message? If so, why don’t you just "not" download the message, since you already know what it is? Killy No, the amazing thing is that *you* are even here.   Why are you here? Geez, Bill..  that was pretty harsh..  all things considered.. since you’ve not really shared much of your own situation, one could possibly ask the same of you.  Killy has as much right to be here as anyone else- you included, I imagine. And he has a point.. you complained about the bandwidth, and then reposted the same post all over again, with the bandwidth intact.. it was a damn good question, IYAM….. Cal~

Response:

I feel a new one hour TV show coming on…..ASD Police, Gone WILD! Lori Mc How did you put it . . .mfarootl? Rambler (um, that’s rotflmao all mixed up . . . .)

That’s called, laughing so hard my fingers can’t think. Lori Mc

Response:

I’ve been watching Miami Vice (and Steven Seagal flicks) religiously.   Maybe it’s contagious….. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I feel a new one hour TV show coming on…..ASD Police, Gone WILD! Lori Mc In article This should be posted on the ASD website, not here, right? If my posting it here offends, let me know.  I’ll ignore you. Rambler Hey man!   That was a 35 KB download!   Som of us pah folk out heres in the bayou are still on a dial up modem.    Anyway, don’t worry about it – I’m sure you’re not.   The amazing thing was that you then uploaded it all, to send back a one sentence explanation, to the NG. Does your newsreader not offer you the capability to "not" download a message? If so, why don’t you just "not" download the message, since you already know what it is? Killy No, the amazing thing is that *you* are even here.   Why are you here? Geez, Bill..  that was pretty harsh..  all things considered.. since you’ve not really shared much of your own situation, one could possibly ask the same of you.  Killy has as much right to be here as anyone else- you included, I imagine. And he has a point.. you complained about the bandwidth, and then reposted the same post all over again, with the bandwidth intact.. it was a damn good question, IYAM….. Cal~

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – This should be posted on the ASD website, not here, right? The original FAQ written by Keith Woods can still be found in the core of this FAQ below. <BIG SNIP Why not here?  It is customary to newbies to look for FAQ posts in a newsgroup. — Jack in NJ Didn’t see Bill’s post originally (it was as news server thing Bill, not just generically you). This *is* from the website.  I post this here from time to time because new people come in (even the lurkers who are new . . . I can’t see them but I know they’re out there) and it is helpful for them to see this, IMHO.  It is the same thing as referencing the ASD web site.  I remember several posters who have come in and said something along the lines of, "Y’all are always talking about doing ASD, but I don’t have a clue what that is.  Could you give me the name of your dealer?" Having the FAQ pop up from time to time is helpful, I think. I was here for months before I learned about the ASD website (that’s www.altsupportdivorce.org for those who don’t know it) and that is where I first read the FAQ.  At the time I remember thinking, "Wish I had seen both years ago." If my posting it here offends, let me know.  I’ll ignore you. Rambler

Hey man!   That was a 35 KB download!   Som of us pah folk out heres in the bayou are still on a dial up modem.    Anyway, don’t worry about it – I’m sure you’re not.  

Response:

This should be posted on the ASD website, not here, right?

If my posting it here offends, let me know.  I’ll ignore you. Rambler Hey man!   That was a 35 KB download!   Som of us pah folk out heres in the bayou are still on a dial up modem.    Anyway, don’t worry about it – I’m sure you’re not.  

The amazing thing was that you then uploaded it all, to send back a one sentence explanation, to the NG. Does your newsreader not offer you the capability to "not" download a message? If so, why don’t you just "not" download the message, since you already know what it is? Killy

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – This should be posted on the ASD website, not here, right? If my posting it here offends, let me know.  I’ll ignore you. Rambler Hey man!   That was a 35 KB download!   Som of us pah folk out heres in the bayou are still on a dial up modem.    Anyway, don’t worry about it – I’m sure you’re not.   The amazing thing was that you then uploaded it all, to send back a one sentence explanation, to the NG. Does your newsreader not offer you the capability to "not" download a message? If so, why don’t you just "not" download the message, since you already know what it is? Killy

No, the amazing thing is that *you* are even here.   Why are you here?

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – In article This should be posted on the ASD website, not here, right? If my posting it here offends, let me know.  I’ll ignore you. Rambler Hey man!   That was a 35 KB download!   Som of us pah folk out heres in the bayou are still on a dial up modem.    Anyway, don’t worry about it – I’m sure you’re not.   The amazing thing was that you then uploaded it all, to send back a one sentence explanation, to the NG. Does your newsreader not offer you the capability to "not" download a message? If so, why don’t you just "not" download the message, since you already know what it is? Killy No, the amazing thing is that *you* are even here.   Why are you here?

Geez, Bill..  that was pretty harsh..  all things considered.. since you’ve not really shared much of your own situation, one could possibly ask the same of you.  Killy has as much right to be here as anyone else- you included, I imagine. And he has a point.. you complained about the bandwidth, and then reposted the same post all over again, with the bandwidth intact..  it was a damn good question, IYAM….. Cal~

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – In article This should be posted on the ASD website, not here, right? If my posting it here offends, let me know.  I’ll ignore you. Rambler Hey man!   That was a 35 KB download!   Som of us pah folk out heres in the bayou are still on a dial up modem.    Anyway, don’t worry about it – I’m sure you’re not.   The amazing thing was that you then uploaded it all, to send back a one sentence explanation, to the NG. Does your newsreader not offer you the capability to "not" download a message? If so, why don’t you just "not" download the message, since you already know what it is? Killy No, the amazing thing is that *you* are even here.   Why are you here? Geez, Bill..  that was pretty harsh..

Not really, considering his previous post.    What goes around, comes around. all things considered.. since you’ve not really shared much of your own

situation, Huh?   Where have you been, Cal?   I’ve probably shared too much already. (You musta been napping).

Response:

It isn’t a private group.   It’s just that some of us might appreciate *some* contributions once in awhile (of which you have made *none*) – not just sniping. U sure? U’re so good at going back and using Google, use it to find my previous posts. Yup, a few of them were sniping at U (U do make it so easy.), but I think there were more than a few where I offered support in the past.

When was that?   In the last century A.D.? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – In fact, I even think I got a compliment or two from other regulars on my contributions. But, then as *U are perfect* and since U have *never* sniped at anyone here, I’m sure U don’t have to go back. Correct? I’ll let U go back to where U feel comfortable and let U do what you do best here. I’ll not bother U anymore, just enjoy Ur posts, for what they are. My clue is that you are a kill-joy.  I’ll bet that wins you a lot of friends.  BTW, there is a difference between being friends with someone and be-friending someone. Its the difference between hanging out and hanging in. Kill-joy to U, yes. U have no idea of whether anyone here has just been hanging out or hanging in.

You know that much about Roger too?   Really?   I was under the impression that he had been here a LONG time. I have a feeling that many folks here would be afraid to share their full story with U, as they are afraid U would find someplace where where U felt their feelings or opinions were wrong. Then, U’d use that NY pit bull training to hang on while they attempted to make some sense of many of the things U’ve offered, with that great sense of humor. U don’t have to offer an answer to this, but I’m sure U will. U "must" posture Urself for the benefit of others. Can’t let someone get one over on U. U can’t help it.

You may be more spaced out than I am.   Hmmm.   Maybe that’s reassuring…

Response:

I feel a new one hour TV show coming on…..ASD Police, Gone WILD! Lori Mc – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – In article This should be posted on the ASD website, not here, right? If my posting it here offends, let me know.  I’ll ignore you. Rambler Hey man!   That was a 35 KB download!   Som of us pah folk out heres in the bayou are still on a dial up modem.    Anyway, don’t worry about it – I’m sure you’re not.   The amazing thing was that you then uploaded it all, to send back a one sentence explanation, to the NG. Does your newsreader not offer you the capability to "not" download a message? If so, why don’t you just "not" download the message, since you already know what it is? Killy No, the amazing thing is that *you* are even here.   Why are you here? Geez, Bill..  that was pretty harsh..  all things considered.. since you’ve not really shared much of your own situation, one could possibly ask the same of you.  Killy has as much right to be here as anyone else- you included, I imagine. And he has a point.. you complained about the bandwidth, and then reposted the same post all over again, with the bandwidth intact.. it was a damn good question, IYAM….. Cal~

Response:

No, the amazing thing is that *you* are even here.   Why are you here?

Sorry, didn’t realize this was an exclusive newgroup with you being the primary contributor. I didn’t realize it was private.

Response:

No, the amazing thing is that *you* are even here.   Why are you here? Sorry, didn’t realize this was an exclusive newgroup with you being the primary contributor. I didn’t realize it was private.

It isn’t a private group.   It’s just that some of us might appreciate *some* contributions once in awhile (of which you have made *none*) – not just sniping. What am I talking about?   Well, what about your ’supportive?’ post of just a few days ago – to wit: I have met many people who have given without expecting. Yeah!  Like Gandhi and Fred Rogers and Jesus and Mother Theresa. (seriously) You really haven’t a clue, do you?

My clue is that you are a kill-joy.  I’ll bet that wins you a lot of friends.  BTW, there is a difference between being friends with someone and be-friending someone. Its the difference between hanging out and hanging in. [Rog'] Woops.   I just realized something.   Your name is Kiljoy.   OK, that explains it.   I was expecting too much.

Response:

It isn’t a private group.   It’s just that some of us might appreciate *some* contributions once in awhile (of which you have made *none*) – not just sniping.

U sure? U’re so good at going back and using Google, use it to find my previous posts. Yup, a few of them were sniping at U (U do make it so easy.), but I think there were more than a few where I offered support in the past. In fact, I even think I got a compliment or two from other regulars on my contributions. But, then as *U are perfect* and since U have *never* sniped at anyone here, I’m sure U don’t have to go back. Correct? I’ll let U go back to where U feel comfortable and let U do what you do best here. I’ll not bother U anymore, just enjoy Ur posts, for what they are. My clue is that you are a kill-joy.  I’ll bet that wins you a lot of friends.  BTW, there is a difference between being friends with someone and be-friending someone. Its the difference between hanging out and hanging in.

Kill-joy to U, yes. U have no idea of whether anyone here has just been hanging out or hanging in. I have a feeling that many folks here would be afraid to share their full story with U, as they are afraid U would find someplace where where U felt their feelings or opinions were wrong. Then, U’d use that NY pit bull training to hang on while they attempted to make some sense of many of the things U’ve offered, with that great sense of humor. U don’t have to offer an answer to this, but I’m sure U will. U "must" posture Urself for the benefit of others. Can’t let someone get one over on U. U can’t help it. — Objects in the rear view mirror are closer than they appear.

Response:

This should be posted on the ASD website, not here, right?

—— Like everyone else is saying: Posting the FAQ used to be done fairly regularly by others in the past. While the website contains many items of interest, the primary function of ASD is the NG and this is the audience for whom the FAQ is intended. That said, I find the FAQ to be somewhat verbose and cluttered… no doubt the result of many necessary additions over the years… but I do wonder if it could not use a little editing… just a thought.  [R]

Response:

This should be posted on the ASD website, not here, right? —— Like everyone else is saying: Posting the FAQ used to be done fairly regularly by others in the past. While the website contains many items of interest, the primary function of ASD is the NG and this is the audience for whom the FAQ is intended. That said, I find the FAQ to be somewhat verbose and cluttered… no doubt the result of many necessary additions over the years… but I do wonder if it could not use a little editing… just a thought.  [R]

I actually thought that a while back, but I am not sure I am brave enough to take a whack at it.  I had thought that the FAQ should perhaps be used to also try and encapsulate "knowledge" gained in going through the process, sort of a Reader’s Digest version to help people understand what they will go through, but people come at this from so many different perspectives, I think it would be hard to have that "knowledge" not upset some people one way or the other. Just my 2 kopeks worth. Rambler

Response:

This should be posted on the ASD website, not here, right?

I think it should be posted here.  I belong to several other newsgroups that post their FAQs weekly or monthly.  In fact, my ex is still running the FAQ bot for one of those groups that we both participate in. I think it’s helpful to newbies to have it posted periodically. Jan — jan(at)panix.com                      http://www.couchtigers.com  Silicon Valley Friends of Ferals : CAT:  A pigmy lion that loves    http://www.svff.org            :       mice, hates dogs, and    Mary Kay Cosmetics, Inc.         :       patronizes human beings.    http://www.marykay.com/jcordes :         –Oliver Herford      

Response:

This should be posted on the ASD website, not here, right? The original FAQ written by Keith Woods can still be found in the core of this FAQ below. <BIG SNIP Why not here?  It is customary to newbies to look for FAQ posts in a newsgroup. — Jack in NJ

Didn’t see Bill’s post originally (it was as news server thing Bill, not just generically you). This *is* from the website.  I post this here from time to time because new people come in (even the lurkers who are new . . . I can’t see them but I know they’re out there) and it is helpful for them to see this, IMHO.  It is the same thing as referencing the ASD web site.  I remember several posters who have come in and said something along the lines of, "Y’all are always talking about doing ASD, but I don’t have a clue what that is.  Could you give me the name of your dealer?" Having the FAQ pop up from time to time is helpful, I think. I was here for months before I learned about the ASD website (that’s www.altsupportdivorce.org for those who don’t know it) and that is where I first read the FAQ.  At the time I remember thinking, "Wish I had seen both years ago." If my posting it here offends, let me know.  I’ll ignore you. Rambler

Response:

This should be posted on the ASD website, not here, right? The original FAQ written by Keith Woods can still be found in the core of this FAQ below. <BIG SNIP

Why not here?  It is customary to newbies to look for FAQ posts in a newsgroup. — Jack in NJ

Response:

This should be posted on the ASD website, not here, right? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – The original FAQ written by Keith Woods can still be found in the core of this FAQ below. Keith moved on (got a life!) more or less in 2001, and the FAQ is now maintained, and periodically updated, by those readers/posters who continue to particiapte in the newsgroup, though we all come and go at some point. Many thanks to Keith for his years of contributions to ASD, and for authoring and regularly posting the FAQ. We hope we do you justice in our maintenance of it. Table of Contents 1. A.S.D Introduction (What the group is for, how it started, what it is not for, Common Acronyms and Terms) 2. Divorce (Basic Questions of what it is, Grounds, and generalized info of the process, kits, etc.) 3. The Kids (Consequences, Custody, Counseling) 4. Revenge! (Why it is such a bad idea, and why we don’t want to hear about it) 5. Emotions and Resources (What you may be feeling, how to deal with the feelings, where to go for help) 6. Trolling, and Provocatuers (Trolling, Gender-Bashing, Spam, and the Usual Suspects) Section 1:   A.S.D Introduction (What the group is for, how it started, what it is not for, Common Acronyms and Terms) Q1.1: What is alt.support.divorce? A1.1: This newsgroup is intended for people who are divorced, divorcing, considering divorce, or affected by divorce (their own or others), or other loss of a long-term romantic relationship even if "legal" divorce is not involved. This includes children and other family members or friends of those directly involved. Q1.2: That’s what it’s for? What is it NOT for? A1.2: a.s.d is NOT for the crossposting of messages from (or to) other newsgroups (so check and trim your headers when you reply!).  It is also not for the posting of binary files (pictures or executable programs.) For some – a jock strap or a miracle bra might be just the support they are looking for. But we don’t provide support for those nuts and boobs. They are advised to take their support needs elsewhere. (For the uninitiated, that is one of the types of humor you will find on ASD – but it is not overall a sarcastic, caustic place where you should fear being flamed and insulted. We just get a little frustrated sometimes with the folks who need serious professional help and get angry that we can’t provide it.) Q1.3: Some of you guys seem mean. I came here for SUPPORT, like the newsgroup name says, and I got chewed on! A1.3: Not all types of support may seem to you to BE support.  While you may have come here intending to have someone stroke your hair and murmur "poor baby," there is a good chance that someone here will feel the need to kick you in the butt to try to get your attention onto something they feel that you should know.   True support of every kind can be found at ASD, but we are all susceptible to getting lost in the self-pity place that keeps us from moving on, or hearing the good advice of others telling us how to move on. That sometimes motivates the "tough love" kind of support. Q1.4: I’m not an expert on divorce, but I think I know what someone else here is going through. Should I offer advice? A1.4: YES! Divorce is usually a very difficult, stressful and demanding period. The people here may be at any stage of the process, and there is generally the full range of viewpoints represented. If you have anything to offer on an issue, it is probably going to benefit SOMEONE. Q1.5: What do all the new acronyms here mean? A1.5: We’ve made up some of our own, that only fit the divorce situation: S2BX: Soon to Be Ex — the person you are divorcing NCP: Non-custodial parent — the one who doesn’t live here anymore CP: Custodial parent — the one who got to keep the kids. SSL: Scum-sucking Lawyer — divorce attorney (either side) XBIL/XSIL: Ex Brother-in-Law/Sister-in-Law (etc.) To find a list of commonly used acronyms for Usenet, go to: Google Groups Usenet Glossary or Tracy & Andrew’s Usenet Acronym Dictionary Section 2:   Divorce (Basic Questions of what it is, Grounds, and generalized info of the process, kits, etc.) Q2.1: I’m having problems in my marriage. Should I get a divorce? A2.1: If you have to ask, the answer is probably NO. However, while it is generally believed that divorce is not a GOOD thing, sometimes it is the BEST thing. There is no "official" newsgroup viewpoint on the subject of divorce. Regular members of this newsgroup come from all sides of the issue — those who filed, those who were filed against, men, women, and children. This is NOT a "safe" place for ANY viewpoint. However, one position which is pretty much accepted by all is that the "Four As" are all justification for divorcing. The Four As are: ABANDONMENT: Your spouse leaves and refuses to come home ABUSE: A pattern of harmful physical or emotional actions taken to control or punish the other spouse, knowing that they are harmful ADDICTION: Dope, booze, whatever ADULTERY: Cheating on the marriage, and not just sexually — turning affections away from spouse toward another is also cheating. Q2.2: What are the legal stages of divorce? A2.2: Divorce is a kind of lawsuit. While the specific process varies from area to area, generally the steps are: One spouse (Petitioner) files papers with the court, stating that the marriage is ruined and asking for certain settlements of property, custody, etc. The other spouse is served with papers, and has a certain period of time to respond (which is why they are called "Respondent"). With no response, the divorce is summarily granted under the terms generally specified by the Petitioner (the court may modify the suit to fit local law). If the Respondent DOES, then a date is set for hearing before the court, just as in any other lawsuit. The judge hears the case then makes a ruling. At this point, such issues as custody of children and settlement of property requests are USUALLY but not always considered and dealt with. Q2.3: What about mediation? A2.3: Mediation, where practical, is generally a better way to settle custody and property arrangements in a divorce. Most judges will accept any settlement offered by mediation as being a binding mutual agreement. Q2.4: I was served papers and told that I can’t go home! How does that work? A2.4: This is called an Order of Protection, and is a common weapon used in divorce. They are usually without basis, but enough of the time they are justified that they are usually granted upon request. There will be a hearing on the issue, but too often the judge will let it remain in effect (think about it — if in doubt, wouldn’t YOU make the safer decision?). If it remains in effect, you will just have to live with it, whether it is right or not. That’s how the system works. Q2.5: I’m getting a divorce, but there is a problem. How do I . . . . . ? A2.5: Divorce law varies from area to area. Any advice given in a.s.d is NOT to be taken as any kind of authority. If you have a specific problem, CONSULT AN ATTORNEY. Q2.6: I don’t want to waste money on a lawyer, so I can do it all myself, right? A2.6: Would you perform your own appendectomy? YOU PROBABLY NEED AN ATTORNEY. "Do It Yourself" divorce is only appropriate where there is NO disagreement on property, custody, etc. — and if you are getting along that well in the divorce, you should try to fix your marriage! Even if you feel that you can’t afford an attorney — FIND A WAY. As a general rule, not having an attorney on your side is the most certain way to LOSE EVERYTHING that your spouse wants to take. Q2.7: I have decided that my marriage is a mistake, and I just want a divorce. What would the consequences be? A2.7: The first consequence is that you may never fully trust yourself again.      Second, you are likely to find that nobody else will ever fully trust your word. After all, if you would walk away from a marriage simply because you considered it a mistake, what promises can you be expected to uphold? And no matter what you say, there will always be some doubt in their minds.      Third, you will probably lose a lot of what you own and what you would have owned.      Fourth, you will never know what your marriage could have been, and (unless you are one of the rare exceptions) there will be nights that you can’t sleep or that you wake up at 2 AM, to wonder if you couldn’t have found SOME way to make it work.      Fifth, you will not be able to completely leave your spouse behind — if there is a child, you will be connected for the rest of your lives. Even without a child, you will think of your spouse now and then, wishing that you could share something that they would have especially appreciated, or each time something happens or you hear something that was special to you during your relationship.      Sixth, you may spend the next few years paying a large proportion of your wages in child support, while at the same time having very limited access to your children (perhaps even NO access), who may suddenly move across country. You may find that your kids start calling another person Mom or Dad, and that they will spend years — or their entire lives — blaming you for tearing apart their family. If you are awarded custody, you may have to hold your children each night as they cry and ask why Mommy / Daddy can’t come home. Your career prospects may be greatly reduced by child care responsibilities which were previously shared.      In essence, whatever it is that you think you will gain, you are not likely to get quite what you think you will. Often, you will lose far more than it is worth.       Spencer W Kimball wrote that,

… read more »

Response:

The original FAQ written by Keith Woods can still be found in the core of this FAQ below. Keith moved on (got a life!) more or less in 2001, and the FAQ is now maintained, and periodically updated, by those readers/posters who continue to particiapte in the newsgroup, though we all come and go at some point. Many thanks to Keith for his years of contributions to ASD, and for authoring and regularly posting the FAQ. We hope we do you justice in our maintenance of it. Table of Contents 1. A.S.D Introduction (What the group is for, how it started, what it is not for, Common Acronyms and Terms) 2. Divorce (Basic Questions of what it is, Grounds, and generalized info of the process, kits, etc.) 3. The Kids (Consequences, Custody, Counseling) 4. Revenge! (Why it is such a bad idea, and why we don’t want to hear about it) 5. Emotions and Resources (What you may be feeling, how to deal with the feelings, where to go for help) 6. Trolling, and Provocatuers (Trolling, Gender-Bashing, Spam, and the Usual Suspects) Section 1:   A.S.D Introduction (What the group is for, how it started, what it is not for, Common Acronyms and Terms) Q1.1: What is alt.support.divorce? A1.1: This newsgroup is intended for people who are divorced, divorcing, considering divorce, or affected by divorce (their own or others), or other loss of a long-term romantic relationship even if "legal" divorce is not involved. This includes children and other family members or friends of those directly involved. Q1.2: That’s what it’s for? What is it NOT for? A1.2: a.s.d is NOT for the crossposting of messages from (or to) other newsgroups (so check and trim your headers when you reply!).  It is also not for the posting of binary files (pictures or executable programs.) For some – a jock strap or a miracle bra might be just the support they are looking for. But we don’t provide support for those nuts and boobs. They are advised to take their support needs elsewhere. (For the uninitiated, that is one of the types of humor you will find on ASD – but it is not overall a sarcastic, caustic place where you should fear being flamed and insulted. We just get a little frustrated sometimes with the folks who need serious professional help and get angry that we can’t provide it.) Q1.3: Some of you guys seem mean. I came here for SUPPORT, like the newsgroup name says, and I got chewed on! A1.3: Not all types of support may seem to you to BE support.  While you may have come here intending to have someone stroke your hair and murmur "poor baby," there is a good chance that someone here will feel the need to kick you in the butt to try to get your attention onto something they feel that you should know.   True support of every kind can be found at ASD, but we are all susceptible to getting lost in the self-pity place that keeps us from moving on, or hearing the good advice of others telling us how to move on. That sometimes motivates the "tough love" kind of support. Q1.4: I’m not an expert on divorce, but I think I know what someone else here is going through. Should I offer advice? A1.4: YES! Divorce is usually a very difficult, stressful and demanding period. The people here may be at any stage of the process, and there is generally the full range of viewpoints represented. If you have anything to offer on an issue, it is probably going to benefit SOMEONE. Q1.5: What do all the new acronyms here mean? A1.5: We’ve made up some of our own, that only fit the divorce situation: S2BX: Soon to Be Ex — the person you are divorcing NCP: Non-custodial parent — the one who doesn’t live here anymore CP: Custodial parent — the one who got to keep the kids. SSL: Scum-sucking Lawyer — divorce attorney (either side) XBIL/XSIL: Ex Brother-in-Law/Sister-in-Law (etc.) To find a list of commonly used acronyms for Usenet, go to: Google Groups Usenet Glossary or Tracy & Andrew’s Usenet Acronym Dictionary Section 2:   Divorce (Basic Questions of what it is, Grounds, and generalized info of the process, kits, etc.) Q2.1: I’m having problems in my marriage. Should I get a divorce? A2.1: If you have to ask, the answer is probably NO. However, while it is generally believed that divorce is not a GOOD thing, sometimes it is the BEST thing. There is no "official" newsgroup viewpoint on the subject of divorce. Regular members of this newsgroup come from all sides of the issue — those who filed, those who were filed against, men, women, and children. This is NOT a "safe" place for ANY viewpoint. However, one position which is pretty much accepted by all is that the "Four As" are all justification for divorcing. The Four As are: ABANDONMENT: Your spouse leaves and refuses to come home ABUSE: A pattern of harmful physical or emotional actions taken to control or punish the other spouse, knowing that they are harmful ADDICTION: Dope, booze, whatever ADULTERY: Cheating on the marriage, and not just sexually — turning affections away from spouse toward another is also cheating. Q2.2: What are the legal stages of divorce? A2.2: Divorce is a kind of lawsuit. While the specific process varies from area to area, generally the steps are: One spouse (Petitioner) files papers with the court, stating that the marriage is ruined and asking for certain settlements of property, custody, etc. The other spouse is served with papers, and has a certain period of time to respond (which is why they are called "Respondent"). With no response, the divorce is summarily granted under the terms generally specified by the Petitioner (the court may modify the suit to fit local law). If the Respondent DOES, then a date is set for hearing before the court, just as in any other lawsuit. The judge hears the case then makes a ruling. At this point, such issues as custody of children and settlement of property requests are USUALLY but not always considered and dealt with. Q2.3: What about mediation? A2.3: Mediation, where practical, is generally a better way to settle custody and property arrangements in a divorce. Most judges will accept any settlement offered by mediation as being a binding mutual agreement. Q2.4: I was served papers and told that I can’t go home! How does that work? A2.4: This is called an Order of Protection, and is a common weapon used in divorce. They are usually without basis, but enough of the time they are justified that they are usually granted upon request. There will be a hearing on the issue, but too often the judge will let it remain in effect (think about it — if in doubt, wouldn’t YOU make the safer decision?). If it remains in effect, you will just have to live with it, whether it is right or not. That’s how the system works. Q2.5: I’m getting a divorce, but there is a problem. How do I . . . . . ? A2.5: Divorce law varies from area to area. Any advice given in a.s.d is NOT to be taken as any kind of authority. If you have a specific problem, CONSULT AN ATTORNEY. Q2.6: I don’t want to waste money on a lawyer, so I can do it all myself, right? A2.6: Would you perform your own appendectomy? YOU PROBABLY NEED AN ATTORNEY. "Do It Yourself" divorce is only appropriate where there is NO disagreement on property, custody, etc. — and if you are getting along that well in the divorce, you should try to fix your marriage! Even if you feel that you can’t afford an attorney — FIND A WAY. As a general rule, not having an attorney on your side is the most certain way to LOSE EVERYTHING that your spouse wants to take. Q2.7: I have decided that my marriage is a mistake, and I just want a divorce. What would the consequences be? A2.7: The first consequence is that you may never fully trust yourself again.      Second, you are likely to find that nobody else will ever fully trust your word. After all, if you would walk away from a marriage simply because you considered it a mistake, what promises can you be expected to uphold? And no matter what you say, there will always be some doubt in their minds.      Third, you will probably lose a lot of what you own and what you would have owned.      Fourth, you will never know what your marriage could have been, and (unless you are one of the rare exceptions) there will be nights that you can’t sleep or that you wake up at 2 AM, to wonder if you couldn’t have found SOME way to make it work.      Fifth, you will not be able to completely leave your spouse behind — if there is a child, you will be connected for the rest of your lives. Even without a child, you will think of your spouse now and then, wishing that you could share something that they would have especially appreciated, or each time something happens or you hear something that was special to you during your relationship.      Sixth, you may spend the next few years paying a large proportion of your wages in child support, while at the same time having very limited access to your children (perhaps even NO access), who may suddenly move across country. You may find that your kids start calling another person Mom or Dad, and that they will spend years — or their entire lives — blaming you for tearing apart their family. If you are awarded custody, you may have to hold your children each night as they cry and ask why Mommy / Daddy can’t come home. Your career prospects may be greatly reduced by child care responsibilities which were previously shared.      In essence, whatever it is that you think you will gain, you are not likely to get quite what you think you will. Often, you will lose far more than it is worth.       Spencer W Kimball wrote that, whatever the problem in your marriage that is leading you to consider divorce, you will have to fix it before you will have a marriage that works — so why not fix it for THIS marriage instead of the NEXT one?      He also said that ANY TWO PEOPLE who are willing to work for their marriage can have a long, happy marriage together.      You can bet that your spouse is equally unhappy and uncertain that the marriage will work … read more »

Response:

it's over

Question:

Maybe its a sign that you have put aside the part of you that was in denial and now have to face the truth of the moment.  You are grieving and the tears are perfectly natural and necessary.  It’d be more worrisome if you didn’t feel anything.  Give yourself time to grieve and do not try to pretend it doesn’t hurt. You can, however, find comfort in the knowledge that you can rebuild your life, there are better days to come and there is still joy to be found (but if you do find yourself "stuck," see a doc for some help).       [Roger]

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi everyone,     Today my divorce became final.  My ex actually brought the final decree papers to me then had the nerve to ask me to come to the car to get them. i made him bring them up to me.  He would not look at me and only said, "I hope we can still be friends and take care of yourself."  Ouch that hurts. we actually have been getting along well, me consantly hoping he would change his moind, but alas it was not to be.  he wanted the divorce, not me. I still love him very much and really wanted to reconcile.     There are no kids just two cats, who i consider my children.  Now my question is why did all this hurt and tears suddenly explode after i got the final decree?  I’ve been crying off and on since he filed, but today it came like a flood.  i though i’d never stop crying.  It still hurts very much and I’m not crying at the moment, but it hits for no reason.  How long before the pain actually ends and i can talk to him or about him without falling apart?     i found a book at a used book store the other day, "Rebuilding when your relationship ends."  I’ve been trying to read it, but that hurts too.     Anyway I want to thnk Casey for the emotional support, we emailed back and forth, and everyone else here for caring and offering advice and support.  now I need all of you more then ever.  Also the link the divorce website, my computer crashed and I need it. Thanks again everyone, Judi PS I’ll be here more often now, especially now that everthing is final and I now need to move on to the next chapter of my life.

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"Suzanne" said: I’m so sorry Judi, but like you said, now you can move on with your life. Eventually it’ll become an empowering feeling.

I’m not sure that i felt empowered…I just felt sad that i was no longer part of our family unit anymore.  After 5 years apart – I still feel sad that ’she’ is part of the family unit, and i’m not.  But ah, i guess yeah, we all have to move on but that little sad part will always stay with me. Temily

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"Judi" said: Thanks.  I’m still trying to figure out why ex doesn’t sem to be upset by the divorce. I know it’s because he’s a man but from some of the posts I’ve read men hurt as much as we do about this.  i’d just like mine to either hurt or at least feel bad for the pain he’s causing me.

You can certainly rest assured he’s hurting too.  Divorce affects everyone..maybe he’s not showing that ’side’ to you?  He might feel he has to justify the hurt he’s caused…… Temily

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"Judi" said: now guys and girls I was feeling the love here but now I’m feeling a little hostility:)

You get all sorts in a NG Judi….just remember that ppl can make comments, give advice which will assist in either helping you heal, or hindering it…but one thing is for sure – here in this group you will not get that sweet cushioning or cotton wool covering – you’ll get honest (albeit cynical at times) answers, comments and advice. Hang i there – we’re not such a weird mob! Temily PS You might not feel you want to marry again ‘now’ but you never know what might happen in the future – the world can be your oyster, or your eel!

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"Judi" said: [snipped] I found a book at a used book store the other day, "Rebuilding when your relationship ends."  I’ve been trying to read it, but that hurts too.

I remember when i first got divorced – people bought me books to read to help in my healing process, but it was too raw for me to read any of them. It was only about a year or so later…when i came out of that ‘dark pit’ that i picked up one of them and started reading…i can’t even remember the name of it…but i was able to relate to the author.  Before that, yeah, it hurt too much. I believe we need that year of mourning after a divorce to really get through it….i have talked to a lot of my single friends about this – and most say – it’s about a year after that they truly begin to accept themselves as single women again. Welcome to the group….probably see way more of you! Temily

Response:

I think I had many of the same feelings as you.  I didn’t start posting here till my divorce was over, that was when I decided I needed the help too. My ex and I were doing pretty well all through the process.  Rewriting the paperwork together, we met with her divorce attorney, got together over weekends when I was moving stuff out and we would go out to dinner and socialize.  Both of us want to remain friendly.

Jeez. Guess I’m still in the denial phase. I know it’s different for everyone, though. So far (separated 6 months) I feel fairly stable and in control. My STBX is avoiding working out the details, and I’m not pressing her. We have to be separated a year before the divorce can be final, because we live in the state of Maryland, so the time pressure is not really there. But things are in limbo. I wonder if it will get more difficult if we actually get back to negotiating details, or when the divorce is final. –Joe micro brew

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I went to a divorce group for a while right after the separation.  One of the things that the group leader said is that there are really two types of people, married and single….

I just loved the joke that goes:  There only 10 types of people in the world.  Those who understand binary and those who don’t.  [Rog']

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Felson,     Thanks.  I’m trying to keep some normalcy in my life right now.  I’m going about things this evening as usual.  maybe I’m cried out for awhile.     Yes we want to remain friends but it is harder for me then for him.  I break down and cry when he calls, I know this bothers him, but what can I do?  I asked him to give me a few days before calling me again.  I may call him if I feel better. Judi

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I think I had many of the same feelings as you.  I didn’t start posting here till my divorce was over, that was when I decided I needed the help too. My ex and I were doing pretty well all through the process.  Rewriting the paperwork together, we met with her divorce attorney, got together over weekends when I was moving stuff out and we would go out to dinner and socialize.  Both of us want to remain friendly. The day of the court date that would make it final we had planned to go out to lunch afterwards.  I couldn’t do it.  I felt like I had been kicked in the stomache.  Afterwards I was going to just drive straight home, but my ex asked me to stop over to her house so we could talk first.  That was a good idea, but I was practically holding the side of the table just to keep myself propped up.  I told her that I couldn’t be social on this trip and I had to be by myself.  Next trip would be better. And it was, next time we got together it was not the same as it was before, but it was O.K. It’s one thing to be getting a divorce.  It’s another thing to be divorced.  There is a finality to it that you never really had to deal with while the divorce was in progress.  This is a long way of simply trying to show you that I felt much the same way, and I am getting better as time goes on.  I am sure you will have the same results. Hi everyone,     Today my divorce became final.  My ex actually brought the final decree papers to me then had the nerve to ask me to come to the car to get them.  i made him bring them up to me.  He would not look at me and only said, "I hope we can still be friends and take care of yourself."  Ouch that hurts. we actually have been getting along well, me consantly hoping he would change his moind, but alas it was not to be.  he wanted the divorce, not me. I still love him very much and really wanted to reconcile.     There are no kids just two cats, who i consider my children.  Now my question is why did all this hurt and tears suddenly explode after i got the final decree?  I’ve been crying off and on since he filed, but today it came like a flood.  i though i’d never stop crying.  It still hurts very much and I’m not crying at the moment, but it hits for no reason.  How long before the pain actually ends and i can talk to him or about him without falling apart?     i found a book at a used book store the other day, "Rebuilding when your relationship ends."  I’ve been trying to read it, but that hurts too.     Anyway I want to thnk Casey for the emotional support, we emailed back and forth, and everyone else here for caring and offering advice and support.  now I need all of you more then ever.  Also the link the divorce website, my computer crashed and I need it. Thanks again everyone, Judi PS I’ll be here more often now, especially now that everthing is final and I now need to move on to the next chapter of my life.

Response:

I think I had many of the same feelings as you.  I didn’t start posting here till my divorce was over, that was when I decided I needed the help too. My ex and I were doing pretty well all through the process.  Rewriting the paperwork together, we met with her divorce attorney, got together over weekends when I was moving stuff out and we would go out to dinner and socialize.  Both of us want to remain friendly. The day of the court date that would make it final we had planned to go out to lunch afterwards.  I couldn’t do it.  I felt like I had been kicked in the stomache.  Afterwards I was going to just drive straight home, but my ex asked me to stop over to her house so we could talk first.  That was a good idea, but I was practically holding the side of the table just to keep myself propped up.  I told her that I couldn’t be social on this trip and I had to be by myself.  Next trip would be better. And it was, next time we got together it was not the same as it was before, but it was O.K. It’s one thing to be getting a divorce.  It’s another thing to be divorced.  There is a finality to it that you never really had to deal with while the divorce was in progress.  This is a long way of simply trying to show you that I felt much the same way, and I am getting better as time goes on.  I am sure you will have the same results. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi everyone,     Today my divorce became final.  My ex actually brought the final decree papers to me then had the nerve to ask me to come to the car to get them.  i made him bring them up to me.  He would not look at me and only said, "I hope we can still be friends and take care of yourself."  Ouch that hurts. we actually have been getting along well, me consantly hoping he would change his moind, but alas it was not to be.  he wanted the divorce, not me. I still love him very much and really wanted to reconcile.     There are no kids just two cats, who i consider my children.  Now my question is why did all this hurt and tears suddenly explode after i got the final decree?  I’ve been crying off and on since he filed, but today it came like a flood.  i though i’d never stop crying.  It still hurts very much and I’m not crying at the moment, but it hits for no reason.  How long before the pain actually ends and i can talk to him or about him without falling apart?     i found a book at a used book store the other day, "Rebuilding when your relationship ends."  I’ve been trying to read it, but that hurts too.     Anyway I want to thnk Casey for the emotional support, we emailed back and forth, and everyone else here for caring and offering advice and support.  now I need all of you more then ever.  Also the link the divorce website, my computer crashed and I need it. Thanks again everyone, Judi PS I’ll be here more often now, especially now that everthing is final and I now need to move on to the next chapter of my life.

Response:

I went to a divorce group for a while right after the seperation.  One of the thigns that the group leader said is that there are really two types of people, married and single.  Divorce is a point.  So now you are single! Rambler

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Denise,     Thanks.  Everyone is telling me this, especially my divorced friends, who happily welcomed me to their group.  i had to laugh at that.  Now I’m a member of a new group, so the next chapter of my life has already begun! Judi It is always hard to see in print that it is FINAL. I think hope or whatever you want to call it keeps us from seeing that it is truly the end. Once it appears in black and white it all seems SO FINAL! What you are experiencing is perfectly normal in my experience. Denise Excuse the typos.  The cats love the keyboard but only when I’m on it. Next time I’ll use spellcheck before posting. Sorry, Judi Hi everyone,     Today my divorce became final.  My ex actually brought the final decree papers to me then had the nerve to ask me to come to the car to get them. i made him bring them up to me.  He would not look at me and only said, "I hope we can still be friends and take care of yourself."  Ouch that hurts. we actually have been getting along well, me consantly hoping he would change his moind, but alas it was not to be.  he wanted the divorce, not me. I still love him very much and really wanted to reconcile.     There are no kids just two cats, who i consider my children. Now my question is why did all this hurt and tears suddenly explode after i got the final decree?  I’ve been crying off and on since he filed, but today it came like a flood.  i though i’d never stop crying.  It still hurts very much and I’m not crying at the moment, but it hits for no reason.  How long before the pain actually ends and i can talk to him or about him without falling apart?     i found a book at a used book store the other day, "Rebuilding when your relationship ends."  I’ve been trying to read it, but that hurts too.     Anyway I want to thnk Casey for the emotional support, we emailed back and forth, and everyone else here for caring and offering advice and support.  now I need all of you more then ever.  Also the link the divorce website, my computer crashed and I need it. Thanks again everyone, Judi PS I’ll be here more often now, especially now that everthing is final and I now need to move on to the next chapter of my life.

Response:

Visit the group’s website:  www.altsupportsivorce.com

Ha!  You won’t find anything there (my bad), so try this:  www.altsupportdivorce.org …….instead!  [Rog']

Response:

actually i joined sometime back.  I used to post here as Hedwig.  I will go over there and check out the bios. Thanks, Judi

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Maybe its a sign that you have put aside the part of you that was in denial and now have to face the truth of the moment.  You are grieving and the tears are perfectly natural and necessary.  It’d be more worrisome if you didn’t feel anything.  Give yourself time to grieve and do not try to pretend it doesn’t hurt. You can, however, find comfort in the knowledge that you can rebuild your life, there are better days to come and there is still joy to be found (but if you do find yourself "stuck," see a doc for some help).       [Roger] Hi everyone,     Today my divorce became final.  My ex actually brought the final decree papers to me then had the nerve to ask me to come to the car to get them. i made him bring them up to me.  He would not look at me and only said, "I hope we can still be friends and take care of yourself."  Ouch that hurts. we actually have been getting along well, me consantly hoping he would change his moind, but alas it was not to be.  he wanted the divorce, not me. I still love him very much and really wanted to reconcile.     There are no kids just two cats, who i consider my children.  Now my question is why did all this hurt and tears suddenly explode after i got the final decree?  I’ve been crying off and on since he filed, but today it came like a flood.  i though i’d never stop crying.  It still hurts very much and I’m not crying at the moment, but it hits for no reason.  How long before the pain actually ends and i can talk to him or about him without falling apart?     i found a book at a used book store the other day, "Rebuilding when your relationship ends."  I’ve been trying to read it, but that hurts too.     Anyway I want to thnk Casey for the emotional support, we emailed back and forth, and everyone else here for caring and offering advice and support.  now I need all of you more then ever.  Also the link the divorce website, my computer crashed and I need it. Thanks again everyone, Judi PS I’ll be here more often now, especially now that everthing is final and I now need to move on to the next chapter of my life.

Response:

As a man who recently went through this too, let me tell you that it hurts.  I believe your ex hurts too.  Let me toss out a couple comments.   I think the party bringing the action may try and hide the hurt even more because they brought the action.  I can see in my case I might have been inclined to look at my ex and say what gives you the right to be hurt, you’re the one who did this!  It’s not exactly rational, but I think it’s a natural tendency.  In addition even though I was the party that the action was being brought against, I often did my best to hide my hurt.  We both fed off each other, and if one of us would start tearing up or start to cry it would usually cause the same reaction in the other.  It wasn’t doing either of us a lot of good to show our pain, we both knew we were in pain. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Roger,     Thanks.  I’m still trying to figure out why ex doesn’t sem to be upset by the divorce. I know it’s because he’s a man but from some of the posts I’ve read men hurt as much as we do about this.  i’d just like mine to either hurt or at least feel bad for the pain he’s causing me. Judi

Response:

now guys and girls I was feeling the love here but now I’m feeling a little hostility : )

Try to overlook the petty bickering.  For some of us, its what passes for "having a life," sort of.  Since they can’t fight with their spouses, they take out frustrations on each other.  Actually, we all do this from time to time. Visit the group’s website:  www.altsupportsivorce.com and look at some of the bios and you’ll a bunch of fine, caring people, who do, for the most part, do get along.  [Roger]

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Bill pondered a bit and then came up with… I am NOT looking forward to this moment either.  I can imagine how you feel, Judi.  :-( And (some of u) please spare us the "…this will be the start of a new life…" crap.   (Right, Judi)? Pssst, Bill.  Below is a quote from Judi’s original post. PS I’ll be here more often now, especially now that everthing is final and I now need to move on to the next chapter of my life.

Yeah, she says (quite rightly) that she *needs* to move on, not that she’s necessarily looking forward to it, per se.    At least the way I read it.

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now guys and girls I was feeling the love here but now I’m feeling a little hostility:)  I’m trying to look forward to moving on, but I swear I’ll never, ever marry again.  My ex was my first ad I think my only love.  you know that soulmate BS.   Everyone said how we complimented each other and completed each other as a couple, I felt that way too, but after nearly six years of marriage he didn’t feel that way.     I really just want to crawl in a cave or hole and die but then I’m trying to get some normalcy in my life.  I cleaned the house tonight and that felt like an accomplishment.  I don’t know why it felt that way tonight, but I guess since I got through something without falling apart.  I put the final decree in the file cabinet and will look at it when I’m stronger.     Ex called tonight and we talked.  he said he feels bad for hurting me but really wants to be free.  Since becoming a truck driver he has got this being free thing up his butt.  All my friends predict he’ll come crawling back within a year.  I doubt it, but I hope if he does I’ll be strong enough not to just let him in. Judi PS thanks to everyone for their advice and support. by the way my yahoo id is fawkesphonenix03 in case you want to add me just to chat and it doesn’t have to be about divorce either.  I really want to make some new friends.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Bill pondered a bit and then came up with… I am NOT looking forward to this moment either.  I can imagine how you feel, Judi.  :-( And (some of u) please spare us the "…this will be the start of a new life…" crap.   (Right, Judi)? Pssst, Bill.  Below is a quote from Judi’s original post. PS I’ll be here more often now, especially now that everthing is final and I now need to move on to the next chapter of my life. Yeah, she says (quite rightly) that she *needs* to move on, not that she’s necessarily looking forward to it, per se.    At least the way I read it.

Response:

Judi pondered a bit and then came up with… Hi everyone,     Today my divorce became final.  

<snip I’m so sorry Judi, but like you said, now you can move on with your life.   Eventually it’ll become an empowering feeling. — Suzanne Outside of a dog, a book is man’s best friend. Inside of a dog it’s too dark to read. –Groucho Marx (1890 – 1977)

Response:

Bill pondered a bit and then came up with… I am NOT looking forward to this moment either.  I can imagine how you feel, Judi.  :-( And (some of u) please spare us the "…this will be the start of a new life…" crap.   (Right, Judi)?

Pssst, Bill.  Below is a quote from Judi’s original post. PS I’ll be here more often now, especially now that everthing is final and I now need to move on to the next chapter of my life.

– Suzanne Outside of a dog, a book is man’s best friend. Inside of a dog it’s too dark to read. –Groucho Marx (1890 – 1977)

Response:

I am NOT looking forward to this moment either.  I can imagine how you feel, Judi.  :-( And (some of u) please spare us the "…this will be the start of a new life…" crap.   (Right, Judi)? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – It is always hard to see in print that it is FINAL. I think hope or whatever you want to call it keeps us from seeing that it is truly the end. Once it appears in black and white it all seems SO FINAL! What you are experiencing is perfectly normal in my experience. Denise Excuse the typos.  The cats love the keyboard but only when I’m on it. Next time I’ll use spellcheck before posting. Sorry, Judi Hi everyone,     Today my divorce became final.  My ex actually brought the final decree papers to me then had the nerve to ask me to come to the car to get them. i made him bring them up to me.  He would not look at me and only said, "I hope we can still be friends and take care of yourself."  Ouch that hurts. we actually have been getting along well, me consantly hoping he would change his moind, but alas it was not to be.  he wanted the divorce, not me. I still love him very much and really wanted to reconcile.     There are no kids just two cats, who i consider my children.  Now my question is why did all this hurt and tears suddenly explode after i got the final decree?  I’ve been crying off and on since he filed, but today it came like a flood.  i though i’d never stop crying.  It still hurts very much and I’m not crying at the moment, but it hits for no reason.  How long before the pain actually ends and i can talk to him or about him without falling apart?     i found a book at a used book store the other day, "Rebuilding when your relationship ends."  I’ve been trying to read it, but that hurts too.     Anyway I want to thnk Casey for the emotional support, we emailed back and forth, and everyone else here for caring and offering advice and support.  now I need all of you more then ever.  Also the link the divorce website, my computer crashed and I need it. Thanks again everyone, Judi PS I’ll be here more often now, especially now that everthing is final and I now need to move on to the next chapter of my life.

Response:

Judi said for all posterity…     There are no kids just two cats, who i consider my children.  Now my question is why did all this hurt and tears suddenly explode after i got the final decree?  I’ve been crying off and on since he filed, but today it came like a flood.  i though i’d never stop crying.  It still hurts very much and I’m not crying at the moment, but it hits for no reason.  How long before the pain actually ends and i can talk to him or about him without falling apart?

As everyone will tell you, it’s not an unusual reaction.  Just seeing that it’s over in black and white has quite an effect on many.  It just seems so final and irreversible. In my case, it hit me hard when I read the first page, but I was relatively okay a few minutes later.  I posted here that day about how as going to go about my normal stuff that night.  In my case though, the worst had already passed by that time.     Anyway I want to thnk Casey for the emotional support, we emailed back and forth, and everyone else here for caring and offering advice and support.  

If I helped in any way, you’re more than welcome. now I need all of you more then ever.  Also the link the divorce website, my computer crashed and I need it.

www.altsupportdivorce.org Casey "Character is doing what is right when nobody is watching"

Response:

Roger,     Thanks.  I’m still trying to figure out why ex doesn’t sem to be upset by the divorce. I know it’s because he’s a man but from some of the posts I’ve read men hurt as much as we do about this.  i’d just like mine to either hurt or at least feel bad for the pain he’s causing me. Judi

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Maybe its a sign that you have put aside the part of you that was in denial and now have to face the truth of the moment.  You are grieving and the tears are perfectly natural and necessary.  It’d be more worrisome if you didn’t feel anything.  Give yourself time to grieve and do not try to pretend it doesn’t hurt. You can, however, find comfort in the knowledge that you can rebuild your life, there are better days to come and there is still joy to be found (but if you do find yourself "stuck," see a doc for some help).       [Roger] Hi everyone,     Today my divorce became final.  My ex actually brought the final decree papers to me then had the nerve to ask me to come to the car to get them. i made him bring them up to me.  He would not look at me and only said, "I hope we can still be friends and take care of yourself."  Ouch that hurts. we actually have been getting along well, me consantly hoping he would change his moind, but alas it was not to be.  he wanted the divorce, not me. I still love him very much and really wanted to reconcile.     There are no kids just two cats, who i consider my children.  Now my question is why did all this hurt and tears suddenly explode after i got the final decree?  I’ve been crying off and on since he filed, but today it came like a flood.  i though i’d never stop crying.  It still hurts very much and I’m not crying at the moment, but it hits for no reason.  How long before the pain actually ends and i can talk to him or about him without falling apart?     i found a book at a used book store the other day, "Rebuilding when your relationship ends."  I’ve been trying to read it, but that hurts too.     Anyway I want to thnk Casey for the emotional support, we emailed back and forth, and everyone else here for caring and offering advice and support.  now I need all of you more then ever.  Also the link the divorce website, my computer crashed and I need it. Thanks again everyone, Judi PS I’ll be here more often now, especially now that everthing is final and I now need to move on to the next chapter of my life.

Response:

Denise,     Thanks.  Everyone is telling me this, especially my divorced friends, who happily welcomed me to their group.  i had to laugh at that.  Now I’m a member of a new group, so the next chapter of my life has already begun! Judi – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – It is always hard to see in print that it is FINAL. I think hope or whatever you want to call it keeps us from seeing that it is truly the end. Once it appears in black and white it all seems SO FINAL! What you are experiencing is perfectly normal in my experience. Denise Excuse the typos.  The cats love the keyboard but only when I’m on it. Next time I’ll use spellcheck before posting. Sorry, Judi Hi everyone,     Today my divorce became final.  My ex actually brought the final decree papers to me then had the nerve to ask me to come to the car to get them. i made him bring them up to me.  He would not look at me and only said, "I hope we can still be friends and take care of yourself."  Ouch that hurts. we actually have been getting along well, me consantly hoping he would change his moind, but alas it was not to be.  he wanted the divorce, not me. I still love him very much and really wanted to reconcile.     There are no kids just two cats, who i consider my children.  Now my question is why did all this hurt and tears suddenly explode after i got the final decree?  I’ve been crying off and on since he filed, but today it came like a flood.  i though i’d never stop crying.  It still hurts very much and I’m not crying at the moment, but it hits for no reason.  How long before the pain actually ends and i can talk to him or about him without falling apart?     i found a book at a used book store the other day, "Rebuilding when your relationship ends."  I’ve been trying to read it, but that hurts too.     Anyway I want to thnk Casey for the emotional support, we emailed back and forth, and everyone else here for caring and offering advice and support.  now I need all of you more then ever.  Also the link the divorce website, my computer crashed and I need it. Thanks again everyone, Judi PS I’ll be here more often now, especially now that everthing is final and I now need to move on to the next chapter of my life.

Response:

It is always hard to see in print that it is FINAL. I think hope or whatever you want to call it keeps us from seeing that it is truly the end. Once it appears in black and white it all seems SO FINAL! What you are experiencing is perfectly normal in my experience. Denise

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Excuse the typos.  The cats love the keyboard but only when I’m on it. Next time I’ll use spellcheck before posting. Sorry, Judi Hi everyone,     Today my divorce became final.  My ex actually brought the final decree papers to me then had the nerve to ask me to come to the car to get them. i made him bring them up to me.  He would not look at me and only said, "I hope we can still be friends and take care of yourself."  Ouch that hurts. we actually have been getting along well, me consantly hoping he would change his moind, but alas it was not to be.  he wanted the divorce, not me. I still love him very much and really wanted to reconcile.     There are no kids just two cats, who i consider my children.  Now my question is why did all this hurt and tears suddenly explode after i got the final decree?  I’ve been crying off and on since he filed, but today it came like a flood.  i though i’d never stop crying.  It still hurts very much and I’m not crying at the moment, but it hits for no reason.  How long before the pain actually ends and i can talk to him or about him without falling apart?     i found a book at a used book store the other day, "Rebuilding when your relationship ends."  I’ve been trying to read it, but that hurts too.     Anyway I want to thnk Casey for the emotional support, we emailed back and forth, and everyone else here for caring and offering advice and support.  now I need all of you more then ever.  Also the link the divorce website, my computer crashed and I need it. Thanks again everyone, Judi PS I’ll be here more often now, especially now that everthing is final and I now need to move on to the next chapter of my life.

Response:

Excuse the typos.  The cats love the keyboard but only when I’m on it.  Next time I’ll use spellcheck before posting. Sorry, Judi

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi everyone,     Today my divorce became final.  My ex actually brought the final decree papers to me then had the nerve to ask me to come to the car to get them. i made him bring them up to me.  He would not look at me and only said, "I hope we can still be friends and take care of yourself."  Ouch that hurts. we actually have been getting along well, me consantly hoping he would change his moind, but alas it was not to be.  he wanted the divorce, not me. I still love him very much and really wanted to reconcile.     There are no kids just two cats, who i consider my children.  Now my question is why did all this hurt and tears suddenly explode after i got the final decree?  I’ve been crying off and on since he filed, but today it came like a flood.  i though i’d never stop crying.  It still hurts very much and I’m not crying at the moment, but it hits for no reason.  How long before the pain actually ends and i can talk to him or about him without falling apart?     i found a book at a used book store the other day, "Rebuilding when your relationship ends."  I’ve been trying to read it, but that hurts too.     Anyway I want to thnk Casey for the emotional support, we emailed back and forth, and everyone else here for caring and offering advice and support.  now I need all of you more then ever.  Also the link the divorce website, my computer crashed and I need it. Thanks again everyone, Judi PS I’ll be here more often now, especially now that everthing is final and I now need to move on to the next chapter of my life.

Response:

Hi everyone,     Today my divorce became final.  My ex actually brought the final decree papers to me then had the nerve to ask me to come to the car to get them.  i made him bring them up to me.  He would not look at me and only said, "I hope we can still be friends and take care of yourself."  Ouch that hurts. we actually have been getting along well, me consantly hoping he would change his moind, but alas it was not to be.  he wanted the divorce, not me. I still love him very much and really wanted to reconcile.     There are no kids just two cats, who i consider my children.  Now my question is why did all this hurt and tears suddenly explode after i got the final decree?  I’ve been crying off and on since he filed, but today it came like a flood.  i though i’d never stop crying.  It still hurts very much and I’m not crying at the moment, but it hits for no reason.  How long before the pain actually ends and i can talk to him or about him without falling apart?     i found a book at a used book store the other day, "Rebuilding when your relationship ends."  I’ve been trying to read it, but that hurts too.     Anyway I want to thnk Casey for the emotional support, we emailed back and forth, and everyone else here for caring and offering advice and support.  now I need all of you more then ever.  Also the link the divorce website, my computer crashed and I need it. Thanks again everyone, Judi PS I’ll be here more often now, especially now that everthing is final and I now need to move on to the next chapter of my life.

Response:

DCF CT: Q: re: politician alleged sex abuse of foster & adoption

Question:

Although the foster parents (Mr. Davis, the noted politician in Connecticut) is absolutely entitled to his day in court, DCF may face some questions regarding the placement of the child. Such as: 1. Were reasonable efforts made to locate family members for KINSHIP CARE for the boy, before *stranger foster care.*? 2. Did caseworkers from DCF make the MANDATORY VISITS TO THE boy’s foster placement as mandated by all CPS agencies? 3. Why was the boy adopted out of state to Pennsylvania, from Connecticut? 4. Was there no suitable family able to be located within Connecticut, where presumably the boy had his roots? 5. Mother’s divorce after numerous married years?  Consequence of what she discovered and/or feared was happening to foster? 6. Was DCF in Connecticut using the same standards as they would apply to other foster placements and/or adoptions. FWD ascps, asfp: Subject: Were KINSHIP CARERS sought for child-did DCF make required visits? From: fern5…@aol.com  (Fern5827) Date: 6/14/2003 2:32 PM Eastern Daylight Time Message-id: <20030614143227.04179.00000533@mb-m28.aol.com> ————————————————————————– —— http://www.ctnow.com/news/custom/newsat3/hc-davis0614.artjun14,0,8637… ory?coll=hc-headlines-newsat3 Politician Arrested On Sex Charges Rep. Jefferson Davis Accused Of Assaulting Foster Child ADVERTISERS By DAVE ALTIMARI And COLIN POITRAS Courant Staff Writers June 14 2003 A prominent Democratic state legislator and former first selectman of Pomfret was charged Friday with sexually abusing a young boy who was his foster child. Jefferson B. Davis, 52, turned himself in at the state police barracks in Danielson after a two-month investigation that began when the boy, who had been placed with a different family, told his new mother about alleged sexual encounters with his "old daddy," according to law enforcement sources. Davis, a state lawmaker since 1991 and one of the most vocal liberals in the General Assembly, was charged with one count of first-degree sexual assault, two counts of risk of injury to a minor and one count of fourth-degree sexual assault. He appeared briefly in Superior Court in Danielson, but did not enter a plea. He posted a $250,000 bond and is due to appear in court July 11. Judge Francis Foley III granted a request by Windham County State’s Attorney Patricia M. Froehlich to keep the arrest warrant sealed for 14 days. But law enforcement sources familiar with the investigation laid out these details: Davis and his now-estranged wife, Jean, became licensed foster parents in 1999, and soon afterward, the state Department of Children and Families placed the boy, then 8, with the couple. The boy, who is now 11, was moved to a permanent family in Pennsylvania in March 2002, around the same time Davis and his wife filed for divorce in Putnam Superior Court. The couple’s divorce file does not make any reference to foster children, and the couple does not have children of their own. Some time after the boy moved in with his new family, his adoptive mother started talking to him about what is considered "good touching" and "bad touching" by adults, sources said. That’s when the boy reportedly told his adoptive mother about the alleged sexual encounters with Davis that occurred in his bedroom at the Davis home. The woman immediately notified DCF officials, who turned the case over to state police. Detectives from Troop D, accompanied by agency investigators, traveled to Pennsylvania to interview the woman and the boy. Because the alleged encounters occurred at least a year before police received the complaint, there was little chance of finding physical evidence to corroborate the boy’s story, sources said. But a source said that the case is not based totally on the boy’s story and that investigators have "medical corroboration." Sources familiar with the case said Davis was confronted with the allegations as the legislative session was winding down. State police also interviewed his wife, who denied any knowledge of the allegations, sources said. Prosecutors waited for the legislative session to end before arresting Davis because of a constitutional law that prohibits the serving of civil papers or the arrest of a lawmaker within four days of a session ending or beginning. Davis was wearing a blue-and-green striped tie and sitting in the gallery next to his divorce attorney, Mark Brouillard, as the parade of domestic violence cases was called before the judge. Also accompanying Davis was his criminal defense attorney, Hubert Santos. Because his case was considered a domestic crime, Davis had to be arraigned immediately. But by posting bond at the Troop D barracks, he was spared being led into court in handcuffs with three others on the domestic court docket, one of whom vomited into a trash can just before entering court. The only time Davis spoke during the short court proceeding was to say "yes, your honor" when the judge asked him if he understood that a protective order had been issued barring him from having any contact with the boy. Then Davis, who once owned a weekly newspaper in Putnam called The Observer Patriot, left the courthouse and walked into a phalanx of television cameras. Davis declined to comment as he walked nearly a half-mile to his car in the courthouse parking lot with the cameras in tow. Santos also declined to comment. State police said the investigation is continuing. DCF Program Supervisor Maribel Vazquez said Friday that only one child had been placed in the home by the state. She declined to discuss any specific information about Davis’ foster care history, citing the confidentiality of state foster care records. Agency officials said Davis’ foster care license expired in 2002 after the couple filed for divorce. There is no record of prior complaints of abuse or neglect in Davis’ home, sources said Friday. It was unclear Friday whether agency social workers conducted the minimum monthly face-to-face visits with the child in their foster care as department policy requires. It was also unclear whether Davis stayed up to date with his post-licensing training. Since legislators are off until a special session starts next week, reaction in the Capitol Friday was somewhat muted. Many lawmakers declined to comment, and a few said they had spoken to Davis in recent days and had no indication that anything was wrong or that he was in any serious trouble. House Speaker Moira Lyons, D-Stamford, who earlier this year stripped Davis of a committee chairmanship during a factional dispute among House Democrats, called the arrest "very disturbing." "The charges are of a very serious and sensitive nature and must be treated that way," Lyons said. "Jeff deserves, and will have, his day in court." Gov. John G. Rowland said he heard about the arrest Friday morning, calling it a "very, very significant event." "Obviously we are all disappointed and surprised, and without knowing any of the details, I really don’t have much more to add," Rowland said. Davis had been chairman of the legislature’s planning and development committee for 10 years until he lost the position after supporting the ouster of Lyons as speaker. Davis was first selectman of Pomfret from 1987 to 1991 before running for the 50th District House seat. He is a very popular politician in eastern Connecticut, to the point that Republicans have not run a candidate against him in several elections. Davis is a member of a widely known political family. His great-great-uncle Morgan G. Bulkeley was a Republican governor of Connecticut from 1889 to 1893 before serving in Congress and then becoming the first president of baseball’s national league. Despite his name, Davis has no Southern roots. He was named after the Confederacy president at the urging of his maternal grandfather. Courant Staff Writer Mary Ellen Fillo contributed to this story. http://www.syc.org    NH group networking for support for families and children harmed by DCYF, DCF, DHS, ACS, DCS, FIA, CSB, CPA, DSS etc.

Response:

Here’s a forward from you, Fern.  It does appear that you like forwarded messages so – this is one from ATC: Sherm. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Fern wrote: >FW >Subject: DCF CT: Q: re: politician alleged sex abuse of foster & adoption >From: fern5…@aol.com  (Fern5827) >Date: 6/15/2003 3:48 PM Eastern Daylight Time >Message-id: <20030615154803.11451.00000…@mb-m13.aol.com> >Although the foster parents (Mr. Davis, the noted politician in Connecticut) >is >absolutely entitled to his day in court, DCF may face some questions regarding >the placement of the child. >Such as: >1. Were reasonable efforts made to locate family members for KINSHIP CARE >for >the boy, before *stranger foster care.*?

Children do better in kinship care and if there was a family member involved with the case, I am sure they were asked. Diligent searches are done, but if the parents are dead or if no one comes forward, they can’t sit and let the child stay in a shelter because of that. >2. Did caseworkers from DCF make the MANDATORY VISITS TO THE boy’s foster >placement as mandated by all CPS agencies?

Yeah, that would have really stopped the sexual abuse. >3. Why was the boy adopted out of state to Pennsylvania, from Connecticut?

Maybe he is special needs and there were no appropriate homes in Conn. Maybe he is now in kinship care and they did not want to say so because they did not want to break his confidentiality. >4. Was there no suitable family able to be located within Connecticut, where >presumably the boy had his roots?

It’s a possibility. I have worked with quite a few children who, literally, had no one. >5. Mother’s divorce after numerous married years?  Consequence of what she >discovered and/or feared was happening to foster?

A lot of people who are foster parents get divorced. It’s hardly right to assume that she knew about or had anything to do with the abuse. >6. Was DCF in Connecticut using the same standards as they would apply to >other >foster placements and/or adoptions.

Why wouldn’t they? Hester Mofet "Fern5827" <fern5…@aol.com> wrote in message

news:20030615154803.11451.00000811@mb-m13.aol.com… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Although the foster parents (Mr. Davis, the noted politician in Connecticut) is > absolutely entitled to his day in court, DCF may face some questions regarding > the placement of the child. > Such as: > 1. Were reasonable efforts made to locate family members for KINSHIP CARE for > the boy, before *stranger foster care.*? > 2. Did caseworkers from DCF make the MANDATORY VISITS TO THE boy’s foster > placement as mandated by all CPS agencies? > 3. Why was the boy adopted out of state to Pennsylvania, from Connecticut? > 4. Was there no suitable family able to be located within Connecticut, where > presumably the boy had his roots? > 5. Mother’s divorce after numerous married years?  Consequence of what she > discovered and/or feared was happening to foster? > 6. Was DCF in Connecticut using the same standards as they would apply to other > foster placements and/or adoptions. > FWD ascps, asfp: > Subject: Were KINSHIP CARERS sought for child-did DCF make required visits? > From: fern5…@aol.com  (Fern5827) > Date: 6/14/2003 2:32 PM Eastern Daylight Time > Message-id: <20030614143227.04179.00000…@mb-m28.aol.com> > ————————————————————————– > —— > http://www.ctnow.com/news/custom/newsat3/hc-davis0614.artjun14,0,8637… > ory?coll=hc-headlines-newsat3 > Politician Arrested On Sex Charges > Rep. Jefferson Davis Accused Of Assaulting Foster Child > ADVERTISERS > By DAVE ALTIMARI > And COLIN POITRAS Courant Staff Writers > June 14 2003 > A prominent Democratic state legislator and former first selectman of Pomfret > was charged Friday with sexually abusing a young boy who was his foster child. > Jefferson B. Davis, 52, turned himself in at the state police barracks in > Danielson after a two-month investigation that began when the boy, who had been > placed with a different family, told his new mother about alleged sexual > encounters with his "old daddy," according to law enforcement sources. > Davis, a state lawmaker since 1991 and one of the most vocal liberals in the > General Assembly, was charged with one count of first-degree sexual assault, > two counts of risk of injury to a minor and one count of fourth-degree sexual > assault. He appeared briefly in Superior Court in Danielson, but did not enter > a plea. He posted a $250,000 bond and is due to appear in court July 11. > Judge Francis Foley III granted a request by Windham County State’s Attorney > Patricia M. Froehlich to keep the arrest warrant sealed for 14 days. But law > enforcement sources familiar with the investigation laid out these details: > Davis and his now-estranged wife, Jean, became licensed foster parents in 1999, > and soon afterward, the state Department of Children and Families placed the > boy, then 8, with the couple. > The boy, who is now 11, was moved to a permanent family in Pennsylvania in > March 2002, around the same time Davis and his wife filed for divorce in Putnam > Superior Court. The couple’s divorce file does not make any reference to foster > children, and the couple does not have children of their own. > Some time after the boy moved in with his new family, his adoptive mother > started talking to him about what is considered "good touching" and "bad > touching" by adults, sources said. > That’s when the boy reportedly told his adoptive mother about the alleged > sexual encounters with Davis that occurred in his bedroom at the Davis home. > The woman immediately notified DCF officials, who turned the case over to state > police. Detectives from Troop D, accompanied by agency investigators, traveled > to Pennsylvania to interview the woman and the boy. > Because the alleged encounters occurred at least a year before police received > the complaint, there was little chance of finding physical evidence to > corroborate the boy’s story, sources said. But a source said that the case is > not based totally on the boy’s story and that investigators have "medical > corroboration." > Sources familiar with the case said Davis was confronted with the allegations > as the legislative session was winding down. State police also interviewed his > wife, who denied any knowledge of the allegations, sources said. > Prosecutors waited for the legislative session to end before arresting Davis > because of a constitutional law that prohibits the serving of civil papers or > the arrest of a lawmaker within four days of a session ending or beginning. > Davis was wearing a blue-and-green striped tie and sitting in the gallery next > to his divorce attorney, Mark Brouillard, as the parade of domestic violence > cases was called before the judge. Also accompanying Davis was his criminal > defense attorney, Hubert Santos. > Because his case was considered a domestic crime, Davis had to be arraigned > immediately. But by posting bond at the Troop D barracks, he was spared being > led into court in handcuffs with three others on the domestic court docket, one > of whom vomited into a trash can just before entering court. > The only time Davis spoke during the short court proceeding was to say "yes, > your honor" when the judge asked him if he understood that a protective order > had been issued barring him from having any contact with the boy. > Then Davis, who once owned a weekly newspaper in Putnam called The Observer > Patriot, left the courthouse and walked into a phalanx of television cameras. > Davis declined to comment as he walked nearly a half-mile to his car in the > courthouse parking lot with the cameras in tow. Santos also declined to > comment. > State police said the investigation is continuing. DCF Program Supervisor > Maribel Vazquez said Friday that only one child had been placed in the home by > the state. She declined to discuss any specific information about Davis’ foster > care history, citing the confidentiality of state foster care records. > Agency officials said Davis’ foster care license expired in 2002 after the > couple filed for divorce. There is no record of prior complaints of abuse or > neglect in Davis’ home, sources said Friday. > It was unclear Friday whether agency social workers conducted the minimum > monthly face-to-face visits with the child in their foster care as department > policy requires. It was also unclear whether Davis stayed up to date with his > post-licensing training. > Since legislators are off until a special session starts next week, reaction in > the Capitol Friday was somewhat muted. Many lawmakers declined to comment, and > a few said they had spoken to Davis in recent days and had no indication that > anything was wrong or that he was in any serious trouble. > House Speaker Moira Lyons, D-Stamford, who earlier this year stripped Davis of > a committee chairmanship during a factional dispute among House Democrats, > called the arrest "very disturbing." > "The charges are of a very serious and sensitive nature and must be treated > that way," Lyons said. "Jeff deserves, and will have, his day in court." > Gov. John G. Rowland said he heard about the arrest Friday morning, calling it > a "very, very significant event." > "Obviously we are all disappointed and surprised, and without knowing any of > the details, I really don’t have much more to add," Rowland said. > Davis had been chairman of the legislature’s planning and development committee > for 10 years until he lost the position after supporting the ouster of Lyons as > speaker. > Davis was first selectman of Pomfret from 1987 to 1991 before running for the > 50th District House seat. He is a very popular politician in eastern > Connecticut, to the point that Republicans have not run a candidate against him > in several elections. > Davis is a member of a widely known political family. His

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Response: