Hello, alt.USA-politics.loneliness!

Question:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -"paneon" (paneon@sdf_dot_lonestar.org) writes: > "Eleonore Beaudoin" <bc…@FreeNet.Carleton.CA> wrote in message > news:dfuv1n$mbu$1@theodyn.ncf.ca… >> "paneon" (paneon@sdf_dot_lonestar.org) writes: >> > "Eleonore Beaudoin" <bc…@FreeNet.Carleton.CA> wrote in message >> > news:dfqg9p$97j$1@theodyn.ncf.ca… >> >> "paneon" (paneon@sdf_dot_lonestar.org) writes: >> >> >> > So, we’ve talked weather and politics. Is the sound of the >> > barrel-bottom >> >> >> > scraping I hear? >> >> >> LOL:) >> >> >> Erm…..Oh! No way!:) >> >> >> Religion! >> >> >> We have not talked religion yet!L:) >> >> >> And lord knows (no pun intended;-0) that can last a few milleniae:) >> >> >> So, errrrmmmm. >> >> >> Who have you sacrificed today …?;-) >> >> > I’ll get back to you on this one after I finish building my wicker > man >> >> > >> >> Yay!!! I’ll have a wicker man for my bday!! >> >> Thank you Thank you, Paneon! >> >> (claps hands in fast brisk excited claps that make her jump up and down >> >> given the amount of air so fast displaced;-)) >> >> Do you provide the gasoline and matches with that?;-) >> > Afraid me the starving uni student can’t afford the gasoline >> Don’t lok now but lots of people can’t afford it that have a regular job, >> nowadays. >> In fact, just this week, I heard someone say she had it with >> tightening the belt more and more, and told her hubby she >> needed a break friom it all, asking him to take her to a nice place for a >> change. Somwhere expensive. >> He obliged and took her with him to the local gas station to fill up their >> mini-van tank.;-) > I’m surprised she didn’t suggest to hubby that she was thinking more along > the lines of a trip to the ol’ divorce lawyer after that stunt. >>  - but I’m >> > hunting down some woad (and ain’t birthdays so much more fun with face >> > paint!) >> Each tiem someone talks about paint or painting the town red, etc, I have >> this humming I wish I could write in a way that woudl id the song on its >> own. The humming part of the old tune "Paint it black". >> Hmm-mmm-mmh-mmmhhh-hmmm-hmm-mm >> mmmh-mmm-mmm-hmm-hmm-hmmm >>  >  > Hope you had a happy (and blue) birthday. > >> Thanks. Was an okay one, with lots of calls, wishes, posts, emails, > ecards, >> e-maginative presents, and even e-maginative e-wrapping  brown paper:), >> *and* "happy bday" sang 3 times at work, plus another three seperate times > on >> the phone by relatives. AND a real 10 dollar bill present, too from my >> sister Fran, and a cake I have not seen yet baked by my mom… >> Only the last 30 minutes were quite silent… >> I crashed asleep and woke up ten minutes into the new day, where it now is >> someoen else’s bday: my son’s sweet half. Funny thing was that my son >> insisted that he had to call me forst and would not let his sweet half >> call me before him, where it was a sort of tug of war between them:). Had >> they called 1.5 hours later, I’d not have to call back the sweet half >> today:), who’s bday happens to be on the tenth (sic). Must make my son’s >> life very complicated….Specially of you add to that that he has to split >> in four on his grandparents’ bday, since both his grand dad’s were born a >> May 2, and both his grand mom’s a dec 3! (really!). >> What do you study where, again? >> What year are you into? > [Memo to self: Stop encouraging the internet stalkers.]

..Huh…:?? Lost me here….. > *ducks* > > Ok, I’ll restrain myself from being such a rude individual for a little. At > the moment I’m nearly 6 years into an engineering/commerce dual degree – > which I should have finished last year if not for various nervous > breakdowns, so on, and so forth. Let’s just say that I’m talking to the > career counsellors at uni about becoming something like a guide-dog trainer, > and you should gain some idea of how much fun/use my degrees have turned out > to be even through my GPA fairly respectable.

The last year was a toughie for me at uni, thsi I can say. In fact the last fibve were, where teachers would constntly use my thesis subject they yet had approved and would turn it into whatever next subj4ect they wanted, piling the work up to publish under their own name: rules had it that each teacher had to publish at least each seven years. They were given a paid year off to do so, where stealing students work made that a full paid year of holidyas with no research for them to bother with. They did that for 4 years to me. I had done all my classes and just needed that doen to get the hell out of there. Student loans were piling up, for nothing, while they got risher on my back. Finally I could with the help of a new superior study director screw thm all and present my subjects at the last minute, makign it impossibel for them to refuse them and suggest any other tiopic or bibliography. But I sure felt like dropping it all. It was a friend tellingme thatmaybe unconsciously I wanted to drop it not knowing by what to replace that goal I had worked at for so many years that made me think maybe he was right and it was onconsciopus as much as I did not feel it was so. But that pushed me to ending it since all that was left was that last year or trying another subject again and hope they would let me go. Again, only the change of the superior study director helped me out. I coudl finally leave uni at age **31***. I had ended all my calsses many years before and was astign years at their mercy…untl they changed director where he had a score t even out with colleagues, thank God, wehre he then helped me out to screw them all, coming up with a plan to make it so they coudl not do a thing about it. But with keeping trying oen more year, luck turned around, and I finally coudl moe on to soemthign else and not be so down by it all anymore. So all I coudl say here woudl be to not give up cause that woudl be giving in! To finish the degree, givign it one more eyar, to then be able to know soem new goal in your life and rid of that dragging weight. We get so trapped in it that we forget that we donlt have a clue what it can bring ahead anymore… Make the move. End the degree. Leave THEM behind and move on. Don’t leave YOU behind and stay stuck in that downer!  > > So, where is the habit range of the spotted and herbaceous paneon do you > wonder? Well, if you look at a map of Australia, going from south to north > along the thin urban strip along the east coast where 85% of the Australia’s > population resides , you have the three largest cities which are the > cosmopolitan city of Melbourne, the global business hub of Sydney and > well… well… what the big-vigs in city hall insist on describing as > ‘Liveable Brisbane’. (I’m sure the phrase ‘liveable’ also gets used a lot to > describe Chernobyl by the Russians.)

Hey. I had a penpal from there yeas ago:) In fact I even have a license plate that reads "Chloe" and under it "Gold Coast";-) > Basically Brisbane is what happens when a big country town develops a few > hundred kilometres of urban sprawl. And what’s the important thing to > remember about country towns? Everyone that was born there really, really > wants to get out and never, ever go back… > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brisbane

Will copy and paste to go check out on my full web connection later. —

Response:

"Eleonore Beaudoin" <bc…@FreeNet.Carleton.CA> wrote in message

news:dfuv1n$mbu$1@theodyn.ncf.ca… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> "paneon" (paneon@sdf_dot_lonestar.org) writes: > > "Eleonore Beaudoin" <bc…@FreeNet.Carleton.CA> wrote in message > > news:dfqg9p$97j$1@theodyn.ncf.ca… > >> "paneon" (paneon@sdf_dot_lonestar.org) writes: > >> >> > So, we’ve talked weather and politics. Is the sound of the > > barrel-bottom > >> >> > scraping I hear? > >> >> LOL:) > >> >> Erm…..Oh! No way!:) > >> >> Religion! > >> >> We have not talked religion yet!L:) > >> >> And lord knows (no pun intended;-0) that can last a few milleniae:) > >> >> So, errrrmmmm. > >> >> Who have you sacrificed today …?;-) > >> > I’ll get back to you on this one after I finish building my wicker man > >> > > >> Yay!!! I’ll have a wicker man for my bday!! > >> Thank you Thank you, Paneon! > >> (claps hands in fast brisk excited claps that make her jump up and down > >> given the amount of air so fast displaced;-)) > >> Do you provide the gasoline and matches with that?;-) > > Afraid me the starving uni student can’t afford the gasoline > Don’t lok now but lots of people can’t afford it that have a regular job, > nowadays. > In fact, just this week, I heard someone say she had it with > tightening the belt more and more, and told her hubby she > needed a break friom it all, asking him to take her to a nice place for a > change. Somwhere expensive. > He obliged and took her with him to the local gas station to fill up their > mini-van tank.;-)

I’m surprised she didn’t suggest to hubby that she was thinking more along the lines of a trip to the ol’ divorce lawyer after that stunt. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->  - but I’m > > hunting down some woad (and ain’t birthdays so much more fun with face > > paint!) > Each tiem someone talks about paint or painting the town red, etc, I have > this humming I wish I could write in a way that woudl id the song on its > own. The humming part of the old tune "Paint it black". > Hmm-mmm-mmh-mmmhhh-hmmm-hmm-mm > mmmh-mmm-mmm-hmm-hmm-hmmm >  >  > Hope you had a happy (and blue) birthday. > > Thanks. Was an okay one, with lots of calls, wishes, posts, emails, ecards, > e-maginative presents, and even e-maginative e-wrapping  brown paper:), > *and* "happy bday" sang 3 times at work, plus another three seperate times on > the phone by relatives. AND a real 10 dollar bill present, too from my > sister Fran, and a cake I have not seen yet baked by my mom… > Only the last 30 minutes were quite silent… > I crashed asleep and woke up ten minutes into the new day, where it now is > someoen else’s bday: my son’s sweet half. Funny thing was that my son > insisted that he had to call me forst and would not let his sweet half > call me before him, where it was a sort of tug of war between them:). Had > they called 1.5 hours later, I’d not have to call back the sweet half > today:), who’s bday happens to be on the tenth (sic). Must make my son’s > life very complicated….Specially of you add to that that he has to split > in four on his grandparents’ bday, since both his grand dad’s were born a > May 2, and both his grand mom’s a dec 3! (really!). > What do you study where, again? > What year are you into?

[Memo to self: Stop encouraging the internet stalkers.] *ducks* Ok, I’ll restrain myself from being such a rude individual for a little. At the moment I’m nearly 6 years into an engineering/commerce dual degree – which I should have finished last year if not for various nervous breakdowns, so on, and so forth. Let’s just say that I’m talking to the career counsellors at uni about becoming something like a guide-dog trainer, and you should gain some idea of how much fun/use my degrees have turned out to be even through my GPA fairly respectable. So, where is the habit range of the spotted and herbaceous paneon do you wonder? Well, if you look at a map of Australia, going from south to north along the thin urban strip along the east coast where 85% of the Australia’s population resides , you have the three largest cities which are the cosmopolitan city of Melbourne, the global business hub of Sydney and well… well… what the big-vigs in city hall insist on describing as ‘Liveable Brisbane’. (I’m sure the phrase ‘liveable’ also gets used a lot to describe Chernobyl by the Russians.) Basically Brisbane is what happens when a big country town develops a few hundred kilometres of urban sprawl. And what’s the important thing to remember about country towns? Everyone that was born there really, really wants to get out and never, ever go back… http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brisbane

Response:

> Hi, > I am new to this American politics -loneliness ng thing. > But I just wanted to say that since this ng was lackign in diversity of > topics, I tried the Four Suits Solitaire once more and made it.

Yea, more diversity of topics would be nice. I ain’t got no interesting threads to ramble around these days, and these boots ain’t made for lurking… > That means I can make a very special wish today or whenever I am ready. > So many things to pick one wish from….. > Any suggestions? > What would YOU wish for would the wish be yours?

I wish the political views of the powers that be in the US weren’t mindlessly and endlessly parroted by the Australian government. It’s sickening enough seeing our government ‘going all the way’ with Dubya in Iraq – but now they’re trying to defend the blatant lies and mismanagement of the whole New Orleans disaster too… Awful stuff. Just awful. Can we be lonely again now? (Better lonely than political…)

Response:

"paneon" (paneon@sdf_dot_lonestar.org) writes: >> Hi, >> I am new to this American politics -loneliness ng thing. >> But I just wanted to say that since this ng was lackign in diversity of >> topics, I tried the Four Suits Solitaire once more and made it. > Yea, more diversity of topics would be nice. I ain’t got no interesting > threads to ramble around these days, and these boots ain’t made for > lurking…

I no longer am lonely with this feeling, then;-) Good! >> That means I can make a very special wish today or whenever I am ready. >> So many things to pick one wish from….. >> Any suggestions? >> What would YOU wish for would the wish be yours? > I wish the political views of the powers that be in the US weren’t > mindlessly and endlessly parroted by the Australian government. It’s > sickening enough seeing our government ‘going all the way’ with Dubya in > Iraq – but now they’re trying to defend the blatant lies and mismanagement > of the whole New Orleans disaster too… Awful stuff. Just awful. Can we be > lonely again now? (Better lonely than political…)

It is particularly odd given the distance. I have to guess at Australia having some direct economic issues with oil… Poor old Paul Martin tries the same and sent more and more Canadians to war, while the government claims it takes no part in it, given how the Canadian population is against the entire way it was done, and given the foreseable outcome: hike in gas price so that the Bush family & friends can sell their own reserves (apparently as big as 1/3 of all petroleum in the wolrd) at the highest price, to stash before Dubya is out of power. It might very well go on with the next ""elected"" official, since money talks so loud. If for ages I started new threads, I am sort of drawing a blank lately before the entire state of everything. Power trips everywhere. Political world, every day work world, anywhere there is any association of human beings it seems… While everyone comments on the reaction of those who were stranded in New Orleans, labelling them a bunch of things, I look at how much more confortable we all are, and at how much pulling the blanket everyone tries anyway, where I then think of how, that woudl they be elected president, we still all would be in deep shnoot. Anywa. Change of tropics…;-) You lucky thing, starting spring!!! How’s the weather where you are? Here, it changed a lot in mid August, so fast compared to normal, nights getting much cooler and colder at times even, that I fear we might be heading for a winter of heavy snow like many kids might never have seen yet… But then again, with the climate changes, this could change again without warning to the hottest winter yet. But would anything be predictable as it used to be, this coming winter would be one of biting blizzard, and of heavy snow falls and snow drifts… And it might start way way too early, too…. Someone should already plan ahead to feed wild animals this winter… Plow people should have a nice income this year. City taxes should go up next year…..and bring more political bla bla;-) C  > —

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -"paneon" (paneon@sdf_dot_lonestar.org) writes: > "Eleonore Beaudoin" <bc…@FreeNet.Carleton.CA> wrote in message > news:dfqg9p$97j$1@theodyn.ncf.ca… >> "paneon" (paneon@sdf_dot_lonestar.org) writes: >> >> > So, we’ve talked weather and politics. Is the sound of the > barrel-bottom >> >> > scraping I hear? >> >> LOL:) >> >> Erm…..Oh! No way!:) >> >> Religion! >> >> We have not talked religion yet!L:) >> >> And lord knows (no pun intended;-0) that can last a few milleniae:) >> >> So, errrrmmmm. >> >> Who have you sacrificed today …?;-) >> > I’ll get back to you on this one after I finish building my wicker man >> > >> Yay!!! I’ll have a wicker man for my bday!! >> Thank you Thank you, Paneon! >> (claps hands in fast brisk excited claps that make her jump up and down >> given the amount of air so fast displaced;-)) >> Do you provide the gasoline and matches with that?;-) > Afraid me the starving uni student can’t afford the gasoline

Don’t lok now but lots of people can’t afford it that have a regular job, nowadays. In fact, just this week, I heard someone say she had it with tightening the belt more and more, and told her hubby she needed a break friom it all, asking him to take her to a nice place for a change. Somwhere expensive. He obliged and took her with him to the local gas station to fill up their mini-van tank.;-)  - but I’m > hunting down some woad (and ain’t birthdays so much more fun with face > paint!)

Each tiem someone talks about paint or painting the town red, etc, I have this humming I wish I could write in a way that woudl id the song on its own. The humming part of the old tune "Paint it black". Hmm-mmm-mmh-mmmhhh-hmmm-hmm-mm mmmh-mmm-mmm-hmm-hmm-hmmm  >  > Hope you had a happy (and blue) birthday. > Thanks. Was an okay one, with lots of calls, wishes, posts, emails, ecards, e-maginative presents, and even e-maginative e-wrapping  brown paper:), *and* "happy bday" sang 3 times at work, plus another three seperate times on the phone by relatives. AND a real 10 dollar bill present, too from my sister Fran, and a cake I have not seen yet baked by my mom… Only the last 30 minutes were quite silent… I crashed asleep and woke up ten minutes into the new day, where it now is someoen else’s bday: my son’s sweet half. Funny thing was that my son insisted that he had to call me forst and would not let his sweet half call me before him, where it was a sort of tug of war between them:). Had they called 1.5 hours later, I’d not have to call back the sweet half today:), who’s bday happens to be on the tenth (sic). Must make my son’s life very complicated….Specially of you add to that that he has to split in four on his grandparents’ bday, since both his grand dad’s were born a May 2, and both his grand mom’s a dec 3! (really!). What do you study where, again? What year are you into? —

Response:

> > So, we’ve talked weather and politics. Is the sound of the barrel-bottom > > scraping I hear? > LOL:) > Erm…..Oh! No way!:) > Religion! > We have not talked religion yet!L:) > And lord knows (no pun intended;-0) that can last a few milleniae:) > So, errrrmmmm. > Who have you sacrificed today …?;-)

I’ll get back to you on this one after I finish building my wicker man

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -"paneon" (paneon@sdf_dot_lonestar.org) writes: >> > So, we’ve talked weather and politics. Is the sound of the barrel-bottom >> > scraping I hear? >> LOL:) >> Erm…..Oh! No way!:) >> Religion! >> We have not talked religion yet!L:) >> And lord knows (no pun intended;-0) that can last a few milleniae:) >> So, errrrmmmm. >> Who have you sacrificed today …?;-) > I’ll get back to you on this one after I finish building my wicker man >

Yay!!! I’ll have a wicker man for my bday!! Thank you Thank you, Paneon! (claps hands in fast brisk excited claps that make her jump up and down given the amount of air so fast displaced;-)) Do you provide the gasoline and matches with that?;-) C —

Response:

"Eleonore Beaudoin" <bc…@FreeNet.Carleton.CA> wrote in message

news:dfqg9p$97j$1@theodyn.ncf.ca… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> "paneon" (paneon@sdf_dot_lonestar.org) writes: > >> > So, we’ve talked weather and politics. Is the sound of the barrel-bottom > >> > scraping I hear? > >> LOL:) > >> Erm…..Oh! No way!:) > >> Religion! > >> We have not talked religion yet!L:) > >> And lord knows (no pun intended;-0) that can last a few milleniae:) > >> So, errrrmmmm. > >> Who have you sacrificed today …?;-) > > I’ll get back to you on this one after I finish building my wicker man > > > Yay!!! I’ll have a wicker man for my bday!! > Thank you Thank you, Paneon! > (claps hands in fast brisk excited claps that make her jump up and down > given the amount of air so fast displaced;-)) > Do you provide the gasoline and matches with that?;-)

Afraid me the starving uni student can’t afford the gasoline – but I’m hunting down some woad (and ain’t birthdays so much more fun with face paint!) Hope you had a happy (and blue) birthday.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -"paneon" (paneon@sdf_dot_lonestar.org) writes: > "Eleonore Beaudoin" <bc…@FreeNet.Carleton.CA> wrote in message > news:dfjqsa$bv6$1@theodyn.ncf.ca… >> "paneon" (paneon@sdf_dot_lonestar.org) writes: >> >> Hi, >> >> I am new to this American politics -loneliness ng thing. >> >> But I just wanted to say that since this ng was lackign in diversity of >> >> topics, I tried the Four Suits Solitaire once more and made it. >> > Yea, more diversity of topics would be nice. I ain’t got no interesting >> > threads to ramble around these days, and these boots ain’t made for >> > lurking… >> I no longer am lonely with this feeling, then;-) >> Good! >> >> That means I can make a very special wish today or whenever I am ready. >> >> So many things to pick one wish from….. >> >> Any suggestions? >> >> What would YOU wish for would the wish be yours? >> > I wish the political views of the powers that be in the US weren’t >> > mindlessly and endlessly parroted by the Australian government. It’s >> > sickening enough seeing our government ‘going all the way’ with Dubya in >> > Iraq – but now they’re trying to defend the blatant lies and > mismanagement >> > of the whole New Orleans disaster too… Awful stuff. Just awful. Can we > be >> > lonely again now? (Better lonely than political…) >> It is particularly odd given the distance. >> I have to guess at Australia having some direct economic issues with >> oil… > Not really. Our prime minister just really likes to live a life of > sycophancy. > <snip> >> While everyone comments on the reaction of those who were stranded in New >> Orleans, labelling them a bunch of things, I look at how much more > Desperate circumstances, desperate people, desparate reactions – the only > thing that made New Orleans different was that people had too many firearms > and not enough government concern.. > <…>

Stil is awful how the army just sent them away, by foot too. Smelled like all Bush aimed at was to disperse them so that tv could not show such massive images of his inertia. As if brushing it under the carpet would do:(. A very very bad, bad, bad, disgusting farce. All he cares bout is to not look like he is. Helping his own? *His* god forbids, obviously:( Here the soldiers were shown on tv even shouting at cameramen and reporters to "get the f out", in no friendly terms (lots of shouting and f words, ordering and threatening them to go away and "take their effing camera with them", where that made the orders they were given to muffle it away  quite blatant to me…) Hopefully Americans will soon put an end to Bush and to his reign. On top of being an international war criminal, he now is a man guilty of the manslaughter of thousands of innocents by hunger and thirst. In Canada, at least, refusing water to anyone is illegal (sic), and passible of criminal charges of criminal neglect, manslaughter or murder. And what of non-assistance to the wounded or dying? That too is in the criminal code, and I believe that that one is in the US penal code too. >> Change of tropics…;-) >> You lucky thing, starting spring!!! >> How’s the weather where you are? > Well, I’m technically a sub-tropical dweller > (we have rainforests in my neck of the woods – but we also have a disenable > winter – which made an encore performance today, but we have still had a few > decent preview performances from spring over the past couple of weeks. )

Oh to be at that time of the year!! We had zilch spring at all this year. Rain,rain, rain and rain and did I mention rain? And fall like weather. Then it turrned to records of heat waves, lasting longer at higher temperatures than ever, i.e. than since they started compliling the weather in 29. Yet we have an early fall this year. Earlier even then when I was a kid… Oh, can we just get that year back and change it for a nice one? > So, we’ve talked weather and politics. Is the sound of the barrel-bottom > scraping I hear?

LOL:) Erm…..Oh! No way!:) Religion! We have not talked religion yet!L:) And lord knows (no pun intended;-0) that can last a few milleniae:) So, errrrmmmm. Who have you sacrificed today …?;-) —

Response:

"Eleonore Beaudoin" <bc…@FreeNet.Carleton.CA> wrote in message

news:dfjqsa$bv6$1@theodyn.ncf.ca… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> "paneon" (paneon@sdf_dot_lonestar.org) writes: > >> Hi, > >> I am new to this American politics -loneliness ng thing. > >> But I just wanted to say that since this ng was lackign in diversity of > >> topics, I tried the Four Suits Solitaire once more and made it. > > Yea, more diversity of topics would be nice. I ain’t got no interesting > > threads to ramble around these days, and these boots ain’t made for > > lurking… > I no longer am lonely with this feeling, then;-) > Good! > >> That means I can make a very special wish today or whenever I am ready. > >> So many things to pick one wish from….. > >> Any suggestions? > >> What would YOU wish for would the wish be yours? > > I wish the political views of the powers that be in the US weren’t > > mindlessly and endlessly parroted by the Australian government. It’s > > sickening enough seeing our government ‘going all the way’ with Dubya in > > Iraq – but now they’re trying to defend the blatant lies and mismanagement > > of the whole New Orleans disaster too… Awful stuff. Just awful. Can we be > > lonely again now? (Better lonely than political…) > It is particularly odd given the distance. > I have to guess at Australia having some direct economic issues with > oil…

Not really. Our prime minister just really likes to live a life of sycophancy. <snip> > While everyone comments on the reaction of those who were stranded in New > Orleans, labelling them a bunch of things, I look at how much more

Desperate circumstances, desperate people, desparate reactions – the only thing that made New Orleans different was that people had too many firearms and not enough government concern.. <…> > Change of tropics…;-) > You lucky thing, starting spring!!! > How’s the weather where you are?

Well, I’m technically a sub-tropical dweller (we have rainforests in my neck of the woods – but we also have a disenable winter – which made an encore performance today, but we have still had a few decent preview performances from spring over the past couple of weeks. ) So, we’ve talked weather and politics. Is the sound of the barrel-bottom scraping I hear?

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Eleonore Beaudoin wrote: > =?windows-1252?Q?Ghost_Walker=99?= (night-ri…@Cookieshaw.ca) writes: >>Eleonore Beaudoin wrote: >>>"OB" (nevilemo…@yahoo.com) writes: >>>>Eleonore Beaudoin wrote: >>>>>Hi, >>>>>I am new to this American politics -loneliness ng thing. >>>>>But I just wanted to say that since this ng was lackign in diversity of >>>>>topics, I tried the Four Suits Solitaire once more and made it. >>>>>That means I can make a very special wish today or whenever I am ready. >>>>>So many things to pick one wish from….. >>>>>Any suggestions? >>>>>What would YOU wish for would the wish be yours? >>>>It would probably be a playoff between universal peace, health and >>>>happiness for all mankind in perpetuity, or a slightly longer dick. >>>>That’s a pretty tough choice, come to think of it. >>>G.W., is that you…??;-) >>lol that was’nt me, my um…..n/m >>i’ll just say i got no complaints in a certain area > Ooops. Din’t think of the possible confusion with the initials L:):) > Course, I meant "George Dublyah Bush". > Ya know,the one who finds it a toucgh choice to decide what part of his > body to think with…?;-)

sounds like someone i live with :p > As for you, thank God you were not created a statue…I guess L:) > (if you read below my reply to OB you will see what I mean:))

lmao, if i were, i’d make sure my statue had pants or at least a loin cloth :p – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->>ghost >>>But more seriously: >>>Not a tough choice if you think a bit. >>>Once upon a time, there were statues of the pefect males, done by Greeks >>>and Romans/Italian Masters and so on. >>>During wars, all those perfect penises were destroyed by *men* >>> ****Not snatched off and carried home by excited females**** >>>;-) >>>– > —

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Eleonore Beaudoin wrote: > "OB" (nevilemo…@yahoo.com) writes: >>Eleonore Beaudoin wrote: >>>Hi, >>>I am new to this American politics -loneliness ng thing. >>>But I just wanted to say that since this ng was lackign in diversity of >>>topics, I tried the Four Suits Solitaire once more and made it. >>>That means I can make a very special wish today or whenever I am ready. >>>So many things to pick one wish from….. >>>Any suggestions? >>>What would YOU wish for would the wish be yours? >>It would probably be a playoff between universal peace, health and >>happiness for all mankind in perpetuity, or a slightly longer dick. >>That’s a pretty tough choice, come to think of it. > G.W., is that you…??;-)

lol that was’nt me, my um…..n/m i’ll just say i got no complaints in a certain area ghost – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> But more seriously: > Not a tough choice if you think a bit. > Once upon a time, there were statues of the pefect males, done by Greeks > and Romans/Italian Masters and so on. > During wars, all those perfect penises were destroyed by *men* >  ****Not snatched off and carried home by excited females**** > > —

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -=?windows-1252?Q?Ghost_Walker=99?= (night-ri…@Cookieshaw.ca) writes: > Eleonore Beaudoin wrote: >> "OB" (nevilemo…@yahoo.com) writes: >>>Eleonore Beaudoin wrote: >>>>Hi, >>>>I am new to this American politics -loneliness ng thing. >>>>But I just wanted to say that since this ng was lackign in diversity of >>>>topics, I tried the Four Suits Solitaire once more and made it. >>>>That means I can make a very special wish today or whenever I am ready. >>>>So many things to pick one wish from….. >>>>Any suggestions? >>>>What would YOU wish for would the wish be yours? >>>It would probably be a playoff between universal peace, health and >>>happiness for all mankind in perpetuity, or a slightly longer dick. >>>That’s a pretty tough choice, come to think of it. >> G.W., is that you…??;-) > lol that was’nt me, my um…..n/m > i’ll just say i got no complaints in a certain area

Ooops. Din’t think of the possible confusion with the initials L:):) Course, I meant "George Dublyah Bush". Ya know,the one who finds it a toucgh choice to decide what part of his body to think with…?;-) As for you, thank God you were not created a statue…I guess L:) (if you read below my reply to OB you will see what I mean:))  > – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> ghost >> But more seriously: >> Not a tough choice if you think a bit. >> Once upon a time, there were statues of the pefect males, done by Greeks >> and Romans/Italian Masters and so on. >> During wars, all those perfect penises were destroyed by *men* >>  ****Not snatched off and carried home by excited females**** >> >> —

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Response:

"Marlowe" (marl…@PIforhire.cam) writes: >  bush to step >>> down plus the head one of fema. >> What is "the head one of fema"?? >> Not a clue…:? ("fema"?? Kececa??) >> (Help,help, cried the redhead feeling like a dumbblond;-)) > The head of the Federal Emergency Management Agency. an American > governmental body supposed to help in such situations >                                        Marlowe

Ah. Thanks!:) I understand fast when I am explained slowly;-) I thought it was a word, and did not think of an acronym… Not surprising they’d not have been prepared to do a thing: "Agency" is usually just a nice facade word meaning that a past governmental service was offered to the private sector by contracts given to political buddies (people who put their money in an election campaign illegally, under the table, and who get a piece of the cake in return). Think of it as a contract with the devil…. "Decentralization" is just another word for splitting the cake among them, and creating entities that will survive (and make impossible) any real change of power, regadless of any change of party. Let’s all start gathering animals by pairs… —

Response:

 bush to step >> down plus the head one of fema. > What is "the head one of fema"?? > Not a clue…:? ("fema"?? Kececa??) > (Help,help, cried the redhead feeling like a dumbblond;-))

The head of the Federal Emergency Management Agency. an American governmental body supposed to help in such situations                                        Marlowe

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Marlowe wrote: >  bush to step >>>down plus the head one of fema. >>What is "the head one of fema"?? >>Not a clue…:? ("fema"?? Kececa??) >>(Help,help, cried the redhead feeling like a dumbblond;-)) > The head of the Federal Emergency Management Agency. an American > governmental body supposed to help in such situations >                                        Marlowe

lol thanks marlowe, me being not good at explaing things was starting to wonder how i was goona explain fema to chloe with out making her more confused. ghost – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -"OB" (nevilemo…@yahoo.com) writes: > Eleonore Beaudoin wrote: >> Hi, >> I am new to this American politics -loneliness ng thing. >> But I just wanted to say that since this ng was lackign in diversity of >> topics, I tried the Four Suits Solitaire once more and made it. >> That means I can make a very special wish today or whenever I am ready. >> So many things to pick one wish from….. >> Any suggestions? >> What would YOU wish for would the wish be yours? > It would probably be a playoff between universal peace, health and > happiness for all mankind in perpetuity, or a slightly longer dick. > That’s a pretty tough choice, come to think of it.

G.W., is that you…??;-) But more seriously: Not a tough choice if you think a bit. Once upon a time, there were statues of the pefect males, done by Greeks and Romans/Italian Masters and so on. During wars, all those perfect penises were destroyed by *men*  ****Not snatched off and carried home by excited females**** —

Response:

Eleonore Beaudoin wrote: > Hi, > I am new to this American politics -loneliness ng thing. > But I just wanted to say that since this ng was lackign in diversity of > topics, I tried the Four Suits Solitaire once more and made it. > That means I can make a very special wish today or whenever I am ready. > So many things to pick one wish from….. > Any suggestions? > What would YOU wish for would the wish be yours?

It would probably be a playoff between universal peace, health and happiness for all mankind in perpetuity, or a slightly longer dick. That’s a pretty tough choice, come to think of it.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -=?windows-1252?Q?Ghost_Walker=99?= (night-ri…@Cookieshaw.ca) writes: > Eleonore Beaudoin wrote: >> Hi, >> I am new to this American politics -loneliness ng thing. >> But I just wanted to say that since this ng was lackign in diversity of >> topics, I tried the Four Suits Solitaire once more and made it. >> That means I can make a very special wish today or whenever I am ready. >> So many things to pick one wish from….. >> Any suggestions? >> What would YOU wish for would the wish be yours? > being a loneliness politicalk group, my wish would be for bush to step > down plus the head one of fema.

What is "the head one of fema"?? Not a clue…:? ("fema"?? Kececa??) (Help,help, cried the redhead feeling like a dumbblond;-)) > in reality, my wish is that lost loved ones and friends will be found safe > people might not bring up politicks when talking about a disaster if > they (me included) don’t watch cnn. cnn is famous for dragging in > politicks when covering a disaster.

Somethign really odd happened this morning. I could not catch one single image on tv, try as I may, this past week, about the hurricane. I dunno, seems I teied all the wrong hours, if I tyried at 5, 6, 10, 11 and midnight and in between. I must always just have missed it or soemthing. Today, I hoped for a weekley news thing like a recap. They ahd one! So I aited to see it, But all hey showed were poeple saying what they thought of the time Bush took to react. Then they said they would leave us on images of the past week, some hard, some sad, and some of relief and…hope. What followed was an image I had seen when the hurricane started to hit the coast. Not even in Louisiana. Same image of that reporter on a beach with the wind. The images of things flyign in the air. Then imagages of…Bush shaking hands, where the sound went up as a lady said "Tahnk you" to him (sic) and more images of him walking in the crows of homeless, it looked as in New Orleans. That was it!! I just was so upset!! It felt so arranged to show images that woudl prenst it as if most of it was all Bush oforting poeple, and gave the impression that was what he woudl ahve done all week….. That much for still tring to see soemthign real on the new one week after:( Your wish will happen without having to waste your oen wish on it: Bush is having his last term. The few words I heard him say were again so senseless, without any trace of any empathy, it is just an outrage and shame…  >  > ghost >  >> >> —

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Response:

Hi, I am new to this American politics -loneliness ng thing. But I just wanted to say that since this ng was lackign in diversity of topics, I tried the Four Suits Solitaire once more and made it. That means I can make a very special wish today or whenever I am ready. So many things to pick one wish from….. Any suggestions? What would YOU wish for would the wish be yours? —

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Eleonore Beaudoin wrote: > Hi, > I am new to this American politics -loneliness ng thing. > But I just wanted to say that since this ng was lackign in diversity of > topics, I tried the Four Suits Solitaire once more and made it. > That means I can make a very special wish today or whenever I am ready. > So many things to pick one wish from….. > Any suggestions? > What would YOU wish for would the wish be yours?

being a loneliness politicalk group, my wish would be for bush to step down plus the head one of fema. in reality, my wish is that lost loved ones and friends will be found safe people might not bring up politicks when talking about a disaster if they (me included) don’t watch cnn. cnn is famous for dragging in politicks when covering a disaster. ghost – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> —

Response:

Trust… or lack thereof

Question:

In article <slrncrcflh.81a.noem…@news.easynews.com>, BDB wrote: > After rebooting Windows, Bill in Co. wrote: >> BDP is probably too young to understand that. > It’s BDB.  What does my age have to do with anything?  I’m 37, > not exactly young, though I reject the notion that age implies > wisdom.  I didn’t realize Jack has a child.  I think it’s a good > idea to stick around until the kid is a teenager.

My youngest child is 10 and is not real happy with the way the situation is. OK, lemme lay some things out for y’all. My wife is 50 and had a hysterectomy (removing both ovaries as well as the uterus and cervix) just a year ago. She weighs something over 300 lbs…  even the scales in the lobby at the local Publix supermarket don’t go high enough. My wife continues to be on a serious level of Zoloft. She suffers from Diabetes, Arthritis, Sleep Apnea and Fibromyalgia.  Her diabetes is not monitored by her. Her list of meds is daunting and includes meds that thin her blood (for the arthritis) that she has to be off for a week before they can do any surgery. Her physical activity has been minimized in order to avoid pain (which has certainly narrowed her range of motion) and will only move if there’s little or no choice;  it’s up to either the youngest or myself to be her hands and feet when it comes to fetching and carrying. So she’s in considerable pain. She’s gotten advice on exercise, etc, to regain some of the lost ROM along with explanations of muscular atrophy from doctors…  which she ignores (since, AFAICT from her words, they "don’t know what she is living with").  Her "I don’t f**king gotta" gene has been active for a long time;  if an authority figure wants her to do something it’s likely to not happen or just not within the parameters expected. I cannot simply "walk out";  I expect to be paying for my mistake for many years yet, as well as keeping up the medical coverage. Part of the problem I have is that she’s so sure that her perceptions are "objectively correct".  She keeps telling me "But I’m a *good* person!" (which is, IMHO, not particularly untrue;  none of us _chooses_ to do something we personally recognize as evil, you know) and that "I’ve been _nice_ to you!" without realizing that these are *relative* to *my* perceptions. I weigh approx 230 or so, perhaps more.  (I really do need to re-check it.)  I’m not particularly physically fit though I’m not a potato, either.  I’m 50 and the only gray that shows is in my beard (so far).  There is a threat of longevity in my genes;  my father was in his 90s when he died.  I’m gauche, my "tact" gene is implemented by something that shows I have more than a minor tendency to say the wrongest thing that is possible.  I’m a techie.  I’m also a too damn soft inside.  I’m incompetent sexually, however.  I *am* capable of more warmth than usually shows in my posts. I’m aware that I’m flawed (after all, it sometimes does seem that the best reason to get married is to learn what all of your flaws are) and that I have a rather large inventory of issues.  I know I’ve made mistakes, I *know* I’ve hurt her on-and-off (albeit not usually because I *wanted* her to feel pain, it has tended to be sins of omission rather than sins of commission) over the years. I’d *like* to think that I’m a reasonably rational person.  I’d like to think that I can recover from my mistakes. That being said, I’ve been too quiet for too many years and have accumulated more than my fair share of aversions and resentment.  I ain’t the most stable leg on the table. So looking to cut down the relationship to just the financials– spousal support, for instance, until the divorce decree, and then alimony. As expensive as this kind of split is, it limits my exposure to the financials, so my time and attention are *mine*…  and I can pay more attention to my child. The 10 y/o does not want to deal with her mother and already deaf to her voice…  and know that they can talk to me about subjects my wife gets upset over. — Jack C Lipton | cupasoup at pele dot cx | http://www.asstr.org/~CupaSoup/  Humans and Relationships:  Imperfect together.

Response:

WhansaMi wrote: > It seems to me only fair that, having identified > what well may be the issue, you spend some time > *directly* addressing the issue before leaving > the marriage.  And, no, "doesn’t all that I’ve > done before count as that?" doesn’t work.  What > I’m talking about is going to her and saying, > "You know, something has occurred to me.  What I > sometimes feel is you trying to control me may > not be that at all.  It seems to me that you are > just afraid… afraid of the world, afraid of me, > afraid that, if you can’t hold on so tightly to > things that they will just all fall apart.  Damn… > that must be scary all the time."

Hmmmmm…  thank you.  Granted, I *believe* I can identify some of her fears…  like "fear of being controlled/dominated". > IOW, if this is what is really going on with her, > you *can* help her, by identifying the fear, and > by verbalizing the words.  And then you can talk > about how that hurts you, because when she is so > fearful that she becomes rigid (and, no, I didn’t > mean physically/sexually — and, as a matter of > fact, I’d stay away from that altogether, because > she might interpret this as just another ploy > around sex) that it doesn’t allow you in, > emotionally.  You can talk about how you want to > feel that the two of you are close, but when she > puts up that wall, she won’t let you.  

(nods)  At this point I recognize that sex is just a way to f**k things up.  She fears sex (well, she says she used to fear pregnancy) so much that it is "unspeakable".  I dunno. Right now, though, it is difficult to feel warmth or affection;  I’ve poured so much of myself into the marriage that I almost wiped myself for her. The hard part of this– and the main reason that I do not see this as lasting much longer– is that she does not seem to see that I’ve been shorted in any way by her…  hence the "I’ve been nice to you!" that I keep hearing.  My viewpoint is automatically irrelevant (even non-sexually) so that any complaints I might make will be considered baseless. > Heck, I don’t think this is the time to sign off… > I think it is the time to really get to work.

Like I’ve said elsewhere, this is a fork. Things *can* recover because I am free to act as if there’s nothing to lose. I didn’t get the full import when I was told that over a year ago, but it’s right.  As long as you’re still playing "damage control" instead of saying "fuck it" and blowing the minefield where everyone can see it… If we make it work, we make it work by reconstructing from scratch.  If recovery is impossible at least it will be obvious and recognizable to both parties. — Jack C Lipton | cupasoup at pele dot cx | http://www.asstr.org/~CupaSoup/  Leadership is about maximizing gains, Management about minimizing losses.  This explains why managers like to hire accountants and keep them busy. -me  "There _is_ a reason ideology rhymes with idiocy, you know." – me

Response:

"BDB" <noem…@yahoo.com> wrote in message

news:slrncrd6q2.ivn.noemail@news.easynews.com… > Can’t you just defend your views without some lame attack on my > age or my "generation"?

No.

Response:

DrLith wrote: > "BDB" <noem…@yahoo.com> wrote in message > news:slrncrd6q2.ivn.noemail@news.easynews.com… >> Can’t you just defend your views without some lame attack on my >> age or my "generation"? > No.

Double No.

Response:

After rebooting Windows, WhansaMi wrote: – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Jack, if I understand what you are saying (which is that you are considering > leaving the marriage), I’d say "Foul!"  :-) > It seems to me only fair that, having identified what well may be the issue, > you spend some time *directly* addressing the issue before leaving the > marriage.  And, no, "doesn’t all that I’ve done before count as that?" doesn’t > work.  What I’m talking about is going to her and saying, "You know, something > has occurred to me.  What I sometimes feel is you trying to control me may not > be that at all.  It seems to me that you are just afraid… afraid of the > world, afraid of me, afraid that, if you can’t hold on so tightly to things > that they will just all fall apart.  Damn… that must be scary all the time." > IOW, if this is what is really going on with her, you *can* help her, by > identifying the fear, and by verbalizing the words.  And then you can talk > about how that hurts you, because when she is so fearful that she becomes rigid > (and, no, I didn’t mean physically/sexually — and, as a matter of fact, I’d > stay away from that altogether, because she might interpret this as just > another ploy around sex) that it doesn’t allow you in, emotionally.  You can > talk about how you want to feel that the two of you are close, but when she > puts up that wall, she won’t let you.   > Heck, I don’t think this is the time to sign off… I think it is the time to > really get to work. > Sheila

He is showing some initiative to improve his life, and all you can do is discourage him? Go for it Jack.  Take control of the situation.  Walk.  You may well find that your wife suddenly has motive to address your needs.  And if not then you are better off without her.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->After rebooting Windows, WhansaMi wrote: >> Jack, if I understand what you are saying (which is that you are >considering >> leaving the marriage), I’d say "Foul!"  :-) >> It seems to me only fair that, having identified what well may be the >issue, >> you spend some time *directly* addressing the issue before leaving the >> marriage.  And, no, "doesn’t all that I’ve done before count as that?" >doesn’t >> work.  What I’m talking about is going to her and saying, "You know, >something >> has occurred to me.  What I sometimes feel is you trying to control me may >not >> be that at all.  It seems to me that you are just afraid… afraid of the >> world, afraid of me, afraid that, if you can’t hold on so tightly to things >> that they will just all fall apart.  Damn… that must be scary all the >time." >> IOW, if this is what is really going on with her, you *can* help her, by >> identifying the fear, and by verbalizing the words.  And then you can talk >> about how that hurts you, because when she is so fearful that she becomes >rigid >> (and, no, I didn’t mean physically/sexually — and, as a matter of fact, >I’d >> stay away from that altogether, because she might interpret this as just >> another ploy around sex) that it doesn’t allow you in, emotionally.  You >can >> talk about how you want to feel that the two of you are close, but when she >> puts up that wall, she won’t let you.   >> Heck, I don’t think this is the time to sign off… I think it is the time >to >> really get to work. >> Sheila >He is showing some initiative to improve his life, and all you can do is >discourage him? >Go for it Jack.  Take control of the situation.  Walk.  You may well >find that your wife suddenly has motive to address your needs.  And >if not then you are better off without her.

There is a child involved.  IMO, that, in and of itself, is a reason for Jack to leave no stone unturned in trying to work out his marriage. Sheila

Response:

After rebooting Windows, Bill in Co. wrote: > BDB wrote: >> After rebooting Windows, Bill in Co. wrote: >>> BDP is probably too young to understand that. >> It’s BDB.  What does my age have to do with anything?  I’m 37, >> not exactly young, though I reject the notion that age implies >> wisdom.  I didn’t realize Jack has a child.  I think it’s a good >> idea to stick around until the kid is a teenager. > Even if Jack didn’t have a kid, it would STILL be a good idea to consider > other options first, before "bailing" (which, I realize, is in vogue with > this generation).   And I think if you had a little more wisdom, you’d > realize the same.

Can’t you just defend your views without some lame attack on my age or my "generation"?  It hardly adds to your credibility. It sounds like Jack has tried other options first.  I don’t exactly advocate "bailing".  I advocate operating from a point of strength.  From what little I can gather Jack is feeling weak and unappreciated in his marriage.  Leaving is simply the best way to put him back in the driver seat.  IME it really gets women’s attention.

Response:

"WhansaMi" <whans…@aol.com> wrote in message

news:20041207183742.08355.00001600@mb-m04.aol.com… > >Great post Sheila.  My past is alot like Jack’s wife and if my SO had >>said those words to me instead of giving me crap about sex, it would >>have helped me get through my issues.   Instead it took many years of >>therapy after my divorce (we divorced for other reasons) for me to >>discover my issues and to be comfortable with myself sexually. > It is amazing what some compassion can do.  Mrs. Jack may not –even > probably > doesn’t — even realize what her actions mean, herself.   When someone > puts it > into words for you in a compassionate way (rather than an angry or cold > way), > it can make a world of difference. > Sheila

Rather than words, his action speak so much louder. His actions describe the depth of his torment in my opinion. It is like taking a person by the shoulders and violently shaking them while shouting "this is what I feel".

Response:

On Tue, 07 Dec 2004 23:47:43 GMT, cupas…@peElMe.cx (Jack C Lipton) wrote: >She _has_ said that I was made for her after what >her ex-husband did;  getting a virgin meant that >she didn’t have to worry about "ghosts" (obviously >*now* I recognize this as "you won’t be able to >measure my performance against other women") or >other disturbances.

See, it’s not so obvious to me that’s what she means (although you know her and I don’t, so I could be totally wrong).  Maybe what she meant is, "I won’t have to worry about picturing you with some other woman because that might make me feel jealous that you had shared sexual intimacy with someone else." It’s a tough pattern to break, but maybe it would help if you could try to see a positive (or at least neutral) meaning to her words, instead of automatically assuming that she means something spiteful. Of course, if she’s a spiteful, hateful person then maybe you’re right and that’s exactly what she means. Somethiing to think about, anyway.  I do know that, in my marriage, my ex said something mean just often enough that, after some years, I began to ascribe a nasty motive to nearly everything he said.  It’s not a blueprint for happiness. Lauri in WA I like my email spamless

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->"WhansaMi" <whans…@aol.com> wrote in message >news:20041207183742.08355.00001600@mb-m04.aol.com… >> >Great post Sheila.  My past is alot like Jack’s wife and if my SO had >>>said those words to me instead of giving me crap about sex, it would >>>have helped me get through my issues.   Instead it took many years of >>>therapy after my divorce (we divorced for other reasons) for me to >>>discover my issues and to be comfortable with myself sexually. >> It is amazing what some compassion can do.  Mrs. Jack may not –even >> probably >> doesn’t — even realize what her actions mean, herself.   When someone >> puts it >> into words for you in a compassionate way (rather than an angry or cold >> way), >> it can make a world of difference. >> Sheila >Rather than words, his action speak so much louder. His actions describe the >depth of >his torment in my opinion. It is like taking a person by the shoulders and >violently shaking them >while shouting "this is what I feel".

Words are important.  They can make a big difference. Sheila

Response:

BDB wrote: > After rebooting Windows, Bill in Co. wrote: >> BDP is probably too young to understand that. > It’s BDB.  What does my age have to do with anything?  I’m 37, > not exactly young, though I reject the notion that age implies > wisdom.  I didn’t realize Jack has a child.  I think it’s a good > idea to stick around until the kid is a teenager.

Even if Jack didn’t have a kid, it would STILL be a good idea to consider other options first, before "bailing" (which, I realize, is in vogue with this generation).   And I think if you had a little more wisdom, you’d realize the same.

Response:

"Hunny_Pot" <hunny_…@thousandacrewoods.com> wrote in message

news:cp59tu$1jb$1@news.wss.yale.edu… > Great post Sheila.  My past is alot like Jack’s wife and if my SO had said > those words to me instead of giving me crap about sex, it would have > helped me get through my issues.   Instead it took many years of therapy > after my divorce (we divorced for other reasons) for me to discover my > issues and to be comfortable with myself sexually.  I’m still not there > 100%, but I love being intimate with my now SO and know that I have > nothing to be ashamed of.  (ok, MAYBE some of the noises that come out of > your body during sex still make me giggle or wanna hide, but I’ll get over > it)

Question. Could you have ever achieved the same feelings with your ex as you presently feel for you SO? Chould Jack experience the feelings that you describe with a new SO?

Response:

"Jack C Lipton" <cupas…@peElMe.cx> wrote in message news:slrncrcg8v.f2l.cupasoup@soup2nets.net.dhis.org… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> urf wrote: >> Congratulations! In another thread I mentioned >> that you and your wife might have been made for >> each other.  This is what I meant by that. You >> can’t fix her.  She chose you because she somehow >> saw in you a person who would remain in a >> relationship despite a myriad of difficulties >> (many of which you have described here). > (nods) > She _has_ said that I was made for her after what > her ex-husband did;  getting a virgin meant that > she didn’t have to worry about "ghosts" (obviously > *now* I recognize this as "you won’t be able to > measure my performance against other women") or > other disturbances. > I went into this relationship unprepared in so > many ways.  I was, AFAICT, quite a step up from > her ex…  fidelity and remaining a heterosexual. >> The next part is to try and understand why she >> saw that in you? Why you did stay with her >> despite of the aforementioned difficulties? >> If you will be the same type of target in the >> future? > I’m too paternalistic;  I want to be protective, > constructive, affectionate, considerate… but > I have my limits.

Excuse me if I don’t sound too rational. I’ve had just a bit too much to drink tonight. Before diner a  Dewars and with diner we shared a bottle of white. That said….. Believe it or not, it’s not about her at all. She is part of your life but she is also NOT part of your life. What is happening on the inside of you is yours alone. To have and to understand and to grapple with. Only you get to decide what the fuck is going on, and what you can do about it if anything at all. Our lives are kind of like your sail boat in a way. You are the boat and destiny is the wind that fills the sail. You can steer your life in many ways but the wind makes it easy or difficult. This boat, any boat, is a life seperate and alone. There are times when a flotilla sails together for a long time but it is inevitable that the wind shifts and all go their own way using the wind and their knowledge of how to sail to achieve whatever they can from the time they have. Never listen to a drunk. It can bring you no good. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> She has needs I can’t fulfill.  I have needs she > could not fulfill;  it’s not enough to just *be* > protective, I needed to feel like I was making a > difference. > Unless I can get a grasp of my f**king bleeding > heart and cool it off a bit I’ll be just as wide > open in the future. >> You can change yourself. > You can’t "fix" another person, even if they’re > interested in it. > The only person one can change is one’s self… > but it requires an ability to choose both a > desired outcome and a path to reach it.

True, very true.

Response:

urf wrote: > Congratulations! In another thread I mentioned > that you and your wife might have been made for > each other.  This is what I meant by that. You > can’t fix her.  She chose you because she somehow > saw in you a person who would remain in a > relationship despite a myriad of difficulties > (many of which you have described here).

(nods) She _has_ said that I was made for her after what her ex-husband did;  getting a virgin meant that she didn’t have to worry about "ghosts" (obviously *now* I recognize this as "you won’t be able to measure my performance against other women") or other disturbances. I went into this relationship unprepared in so many ways.  I was, AFAICT, quite a step up from her ex…  fidelity and remaining a heterosexual. > The next part is to try and understand why she > saw that in you? Why you did stay with her > despite of the aforementioned difficulties? > If you will be the same type of target in the > future?

I’m too paternalistic;  I want to be protective, constructive, affectionate, considerate… but I have my limits. She has needs I can’t fulfill.  I have needs she could not fulfill;  it’s not enough to just *be* protective, I needed to feel like I was making a difference. Unless I can get a grasp of my f**king bleeding heart and cool it off a bit I’ll be just as wide open in the future. > You can change yourself.

You can’t "fix" another person, even if they’re interested in it. The only person one can change is one’s self… but it requires an ability to choose both a desired outcome and a path to reach it. — Jack C Lipton | cupasoup at pele dot cx | http://www.asstr.org/~CupaSoup/  Leadership is about maximizing gains, Management about minimizing losses.  This explains why managers like to hire accountants and keep them busy. -me  "There _is_ a reason ideology rhymes with idiocy, you know." – me

Response:

>Great post Sheila.  My past is alot like Jack’s wife and if my SO had >said those words to me instead of giving me crap about sex, it would >have helped me get through my issues.   Instead it took many years of >therapy after my divorce (we divorced for other reasons) for me to >discover my issues and to be comfortable with myself sexually.

It is amazing what some compassion can do.  Mrs. Jack may not –even probably doesn’t — even realize what her actions mean, herself.   When someone puts it into words for you in a compassionate way (rather than an angry or cold way), it can make a world of difference. Sheila

Response:

Emma Anne wrote: > Jack C Lipton wrote: >> It’s when you stop saying to yourself "Nahhhh, >> that can’t be true" that you realize a LOT of >> things. > Ouch.  Yes, I’ve been there. > Are you really considering ending your marriage?

I understand *now* that only when one is looking through the yellow pages for a divorce lawyer that one can see *both* directions.  If one can write off the marriage then one can basically choose to start all over or to get your ass out of the firing line. — Jack C Lipton | cupasoup at pele dot cx | http://www.asstr.org/~CupaSoup/  Leadership is about maximizing gains, Management about minimizing losses.  This explains why managers like to hire accountants and keep them busy. -me  "There _is_ a reason ideology rhymes with idiocy, you know." – me

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Jack C Lipton wrote: > Emma Anne wrote: >> Jack C Lipton wrote: >>> It’s when you stop saying to yourself "Nahhhh, >>> that can’t be true" that you realize a LOT of >>> things. >> Ouch.  Yes, I’ve been there. >> Are you really considering ending your marriage? > I understand *now* that only when one is looking > through the yellow pages for a divorce lawyer > that one can see *both* directions.  If one can > write off the marriage then one can basically > choose to start all over or to get your ass out > of the firing line.

Starting over ain’t all that fun, especially at our age.    Why don’t you BOTH go to marriage counseling?     You have nothing to lose.

Response:

After rebooting Windows, Bill in Co. wrote: > BDP is probably too young to understand that.

It’s BDB.  What does my age have to do with anything?  I’m 37, not exactly young, though I reject the notion that age implies wisdom.  I didn’t realize Jack has a child.  I think it’s a good idea to stick around until the kid is a teenager.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -WhansaMi wrote: >> After rebooting Windows, WhansaMi wrote: >>> Jack, if I understand what you are saying (which is that you are considering >>> leaving the marriage), I’d say "Foul!"  :-) >>> It seems to me only fair that, having identified what well may be the issue, >>> you spend some time *directly* addressing the issue before leaving the >>> marriage.  And, no, "doesn’t all that I’ve done before count as that?" >>> doesn’t work.  What I’m talking about is going to her and saying, "You >>> know, something has occurred to me.  What I sometimes feel is you trying to >>> control me may not be that at all.  It seems to me that you are just >>> afraid… afraid of the world, afraid of me, afraid that, if you can’t hold >>> on so tightly to things that they will just all fall apart.  Damn… that >>> must be scary all the time." >>> IOW, if this is what is really going on with her, you *can* help her, by >>> identifying the fear, and by verbalizing the words.  And then you can talk >>> about how that hurts you, because when she is so fearful that she becomes >>> rigid (and, no, I didn’t mean physically/sexually — and, as a matter of >>> fact, I’d stay away from that altogether, because she might interpret this >>> as just another ploy around sex) that it doesn’t allow you in, emotionally. >>> You can talk about how you want to feel that the two of you are close, but >>> when she puts up that wall, she won’t let you. >>> Heck, I don’t think this is the time to sign off… I think it is the time >>> to really get to work. >>> Sheila >> He is showing some initiative to improve his life, and all you can do is >> discourage him? >> Go for it Jack.  Take control of the situation.  Walk.  You may well >> find that your wife suddenly has motive to address your needs.  And >> if not then you are better off without her. > There is a child involved.  IMO, that, in and of itself, is a reason for Jack > to leave no stone unturned in trying to work out his marriage. > Sheila

BDP is probably too young to understand that.

Response:

Great post Sheila.  My past is alot like Jack’s wife and if my SO had said those words to me instead of giving me crap about sex, it would have helped me get through my issues.   Instead it took many years of therapy after my divorce (we divorced for other reasons) for me to discover my issues and to be comfortable with myself sexually.  I’m still not there 100%, but I love being intimate with my now SO and know that I have nothing to be ashamed of.  (ok, MAYBE some of the noises that come out of your body during sex still make me giggle or wanna hide, but I’ll get over it) Cheryl – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -WhansaMi wrote: >>OK, so this thread starts about _me_… and what >>passes for a marriage.  It took some posts in >>another thread to get me thinking about the trust >>issues and I realized that my wife has _never_ >>trusted me "enough". >>Now I recognize that her childhood and first >>marriage were awful, truly awful, but it finally >>struck me that I *can’t* fix these things for her; >>only _she_ can.  Any effort I’ve made to mitigate >>this history hasn’t made a difference and so I now >>realize that it *has* to be over. >>What now bothers me is that I never recognized all >>of the little "clues" until today, when I finally >>decided I’d had enough. >>(shrugs) >>It’s when you stop saying to yourself "Nahhhh, >>that can’t be true" that you realize a LOT of >>things. > Jack, if I understand what you are saying (which is that you are considering > leaving the marriage), I’d say "Foul!"  :-) > It seems to me only fair that, having identified what well may be the issue, > you spend some time *directly* addressing the issue before leaving the > marriage.  And, no, "doesn’t all that I’ve done before count as that?" doesn’t > work.  What I’m talking about is going to her and saying, "You know, something > has occurred to me.  What I sometimes feel is you trying to control me may not > be that at all.  It seems to me that you are just afraid… afraid of the > world, afraid of me, afraid that, if you can’t hold on so tightly to things > that they will just all fall apart.  Damn… that must be scary all the time." > IOW, if this is what is really going on with her, you *can* help her, by > identifying the fear, and by verbalizing the words.  And then you can talk > about how that hurts you, because when she is so fearful that she becomes rigid > (and, no, I didn’t mean physically/sexually — and, as a matter of fact, I’d > stay away from that altogether, because she might interpret this as just > another ploy around sex) that it doesn’t allow you in, emotionally.  You can > talk about how you want to feel that the two of you are close, but when she > puts up that wall, she won’t let you.   > Heck, I don’t think this is the time to sign off… I think it is the time to > really get to work. > Sheila

Response:

Just be there for her and make sure you don’t do the things that her last husband did. Let her know how you feel and let her now that you are there for her in anyway she needs you.

Response:

"Jack C Lipton" <cupas…@peElMe.cx> wrote in message news:slrncrbjag.crr.cupasoup@soup2nets.net.dhis.org… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> OK, so this thread starts about _me_… and what > passes for a marriage.  It took some posts in > another thread to get me thinking about the trust > issues and I realized that my wife has _never_ > trusted me "enough". > Now I recognize that her childhood and first > marriage were awful, truly awful, but it finally > struck me that I *can’t* fix these things for her; > only _she_ can.  Any effort I’ve made to mitigate > this history hasn’t made a difference and so I now > realize that it *has* to be over. > What now bothers me is that I never recognized all > of the little "clues" until today, when I finally > decided I’d had enough. > (shrugs) > It’s when you stop saying to yourself "Nahhhh, > that can’t be true" that you realize a LOT of > things.

Congratulations! In another thread I mentioned that you and your wife might have been made for each other. This is what I meant by that. You can’t fix her. She chose you because she somehow saw in you a person who would remain in a relationship despite a myriad of difficulties (many of which you have described here). The next part is to try and understand why she saw that in you? Why you did stay with her despite of the aforementioned difficulties? If you will be the same type of target in the future? You can change yourself.

Response:

Jack C Lipton <cupas…@peElMe.cx> wrote: > It’s when you stop saying to yourself "Nahhhh, > that can’t be true" that you realize a LOT of > things.

Ouch.  Yes, I’ve been there. Are you really considering ending your marriage?

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->OK, so this thread starts about _me_… and what >passes for a marriage.  It took some posts in >another thread to get me thinking about the trust >issues and I realized that my wife has _never_ >trusted me "enough". >Now I recognize that her childhood and first >marriage were awful, truly awful, but it finally >struck me that I *can’t* fix these things for her; >only _she_ can.  Any effort I’ve made to mitigate >this history hasn’t made a difference and so I now >realize that it *has* to be over. >What now bothers me is that I never recognized all >of the little "clues" until today, when I finally >decided I’d had enough. >(shrugs) >It’s when you stop saying to yourself "Nahhhh, >that can’t be true" that you realize a LOT of >things.

Jack, if I understand what you are saying (which is that you are considering leaving the marriage), I’d say "Foul!"  :-) It seems to me only fair that, having identified what well may be the issue, you spend some time *directly* addressing the issue before leaving the marriage.  And, no, "doesn’t all that I’ve done before count as that?" doesn’t work.  What I’m talking about is going to her and saying, "You know, something has occurred to me.  What I sometimes feel is you trying to control me may not be that at all.  It seems to me that you are just afraid… afraid of the world, afraid of me, afraid that, if you can’t hold on so tightly to things that they will just all fall apart.  Damn… that must be scary all the time." IOW, if this is what is really going on with her, you *can* help her, by identifying the fear, and by verbalizing the words.  And then you can talk about how that hurts you, because when she is so fearful that she becomes rigid (and, no, I didn’t mean physically/sexually — and, as a matter of fact, I’d stay away from that altogether, because she might interpret this as just another ploy around sex) that it doesn’t allow you in, emotionally.  You can talk about how you want to feel that the two of you are close, but when she puts up that wall, she won’t let you.   Heck, I don’t think this is the time to sign off… I think it is the time to really get to work. Sheila

Response:

OK, so this thread starts about _me_… and what passes for a marriage.  It took some posts in another thread to get me thinking about the trust issues and I realized that my wife has _never_ trusted me "enough". Now I recognize that her childhood and first marriage were awful, truly awful, but it finally struck me that I *can’t* fix these things for her; only _she_ can.  Any effort I’ve made to mitigate this history hasn’t made a difference and so I now realize that it *has* to be over. What now bothers me is that I never recognized all of the little "clues" until today, when I finally decided I’d had enough. (shrugs) It’s when you stop saying to yourself "Nahhhh, that can’t be true" that you realize a LOT of things. — Jack C Lipton | cupasoup at pele dot cx | http://www.asstr.org/~CupaSoup/  Leadership is about maximizing gains, Management about minimizing losses.  This explains why managers like to hire accountants and keep them busy. -me  "There _is_ a reason ideology rhymes with idiocy, you know." – me

Response:

Buick Century 2003 Braking problem..

Question:

If you were worried about her welfare, it seems to me you would be calling a mechanic, rather than a lawyer. Oh, I’m doing that, too…  The first mechanic said nothing was wrong…  of course, that’s the mechanic at the dealer where I bought the car, so I’m thinking a second opinion might be in order…

Just a quick question for you… have you bothered to go out in a safe area and try some stopping distance  tests and compare them to the nominal rating for the vehicle? I don’t mean to disrespect your wife, but she may actually be to blame, not the brakes.  Of course there might be an issue with the brakes too. As to the NHSTA or whatever site, keep in mind that there is likely to be _some_ reports of problems with just about every vehicle.  Also, when it comes to braking systems, usually any serious problem WILL result in a recall.  No recall is a sign of no serious problems.  This logic doesn’t hold up for much, but safety critical items like brakes it does somewhat (I believe).

Response:

I must have been spoiled in the land of Olds.  I don’t think I saw any GM car above the level of a Cavalier and 98 or newer at the Olds dealer where I previously worked that didn’t have ABS.  Thanks.

Response:

I must have been spoiled in the land of Olds.  I don’t think I saw any GM car above the level of a Cavalier and 98 or newer at the Olds dealer where I previously worked that didn’t have ABS.  Thanks.

    I don’t think out of all the used 1998 to 2002 Century’s and Regals I looked at, that I have seen  one with out  ABS. I would see a good number of them at Dealer only  Car Auctions. Maybe most dealers around here order them with that option as part of a order package. Both 1998  Century’s I have had, plus my friends 2000 Century are the  "Custom"  models, not the "limited" Charles

Response:

God I should know better than to ask about this shit on the usenet… It sure has turned into a shitheap in the last 10 years..

Yeah, seriously… I mean trolls like you talking trash like this, the quality has really gone downhill. Seriously though: before you go calling your lawyer and complaining to the NHTSA, have you had a qualified mechanic evaluate the brakes for you?  Before calling something defective, it’s a good idea to ensure that the item is truly defective first.  Once it’s been verified that, yes, the brakes are marginal, and the problem is not the result of break wear or other maintenance issue, then you should proceed.

Response:

Hyundia ABS is optional on the base Impala, Century & Regal. I think the option is $600.00 Harryface       1991 Pontiac Bonneville LE  3800 V6 ( C ), Black/Slate Grey _~_~_~286,950 miles_~_~_           ~~~The Former Fleet ~~~ 89 Cavalier Z 24 convertible 78 Holiday 88 coupe 68 LeSabre convertible 73 Impala sedan

Response:

Forgot to say in my previous post ABS is optional for 04 & 05 as well as 03. Harryface       1991 Pontiac Bonneville LE  3800 V6 ( C ), Black/Slate Grey _~_~_~286,950 miles_~_~_           ~~~The Former Fleet ~~~ 89 Cavalier Z 24 convertible 78 Holiday 88 coupe 68 LeSabre convertible 73 Impala sedan

Response:

Does anyone know if there is a ‘known issue’ with braking in the 2003 Century?  My wife has had TWO ACCIDENTS in the 5 months since we bought the car, both resulting from the brakes failing to stop the car…  On the NHTSA defect investigation website I’ve found two reports of similar problems, but nothing wrt recalls, etc. I dunno what to do or where to turn.  I’m calling a lawyer tomorrow to see what my options are.. Any advice would be appreciated.

    Actually Century & Regals  do  have brake  issues.  Not  from a parts failure  mind you.  More from premature application  of the anti-lock system.     In  Snow  or  Rain it will   come in way to early, and modulate  too much for effective stopping  distances.  About the same in other low traction situations. You will notice the "low trac" light coming on just at the Anti-Lock goes to  work.     Is it  a  sever enough problem to   sue  GM, or even get a buy  back? No.  You  just have to brake sooner, and not so hard.   First gen 4 wheel ABS systems spoiled  people. They are not used to how newer systems work. Some times they work "too well".     If  you think the brakes  on your car are defective,  here is what you should do:     Take it to a dealer,  and have a Tech road test it,  and try to measure the  stopping distance against a like car. Then go to a independent and have the same done. If your not satisfied maybe call your state police  and  ask for  a vehicle safety inspection. Charles

Response:

I’m assuming these were rear end collisions your wife had.

Correct. What were the road conditions like? Wet ? Dry ?

Dry. Hot weather. How fast was the car traveling?

55-60 MPH Was your wife driving to close to the cars ahead of her?

Considering she was in another accident earlier this year she’s been driving futher away from cars than even *I* do.  According to her at least 60 feet behind the car in front of her.  From my watching her drive I wouldn’t be surprised if it was closer to 80 feet.   Does the car have Anti Lock Brakes (ABS)?

Nope. Do you have over 36,000 miles on the brakes?

Nope.

Response:

I didn’t think the 03 Century was available without ABS.

Response:

I didn’t think the 03 Century was available without ABS.

It is.. er… was…

Response:

Suggest a trade in of either…..

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I didn’t think the 03 Century was available without ABS. It is.. er… was…

Response:

I didn’t think the 03 Century was available without ABS.

My 03 malibu was available without ABS.

Response:

Not my place to comment, but nevertheless I’m completely certain they were teasing you… And y’know.. they probably were.. but I have a hard time making jokes where the welfare of the mother of my children is concerned.. :-/

If you were worried about her welfare, it seems to me you would be calling a mechanic, rather than a lawyer. H

Response:

I’m assuming these were rear end collisions your wife had. What were the road conditions like? Wet ? Dry ? How fast was the car traveling? Was your wife driving to close to the cars ahead of her? Does the car have Anti Lock Brakes (ABS)? Do you have over 36,000 miles on the brakes? Harryface       1991 Pontiac Bonneville LE  3800 V6 ( C ), Black/Slate Grey _~_~_~286,950 miles_~_~_           ~~~The Former Fleet ~~~ 89 Cavalier Z 24 convertible 78 Holiday 88 coupe 68 LeSabre convertible 73 Impala sedan

Response:

If you were worried about her welfare, it seems to me you would be calling a mechanic, rather than a lawyer.

Oh, I’m doing that, too…  The first mechanic said nothing was wrong…  of course, that’s the mechanic at the dealer where I bought the car, so I’m thinking a second opinion might be in order…

Response:

I’m surprised to hear you refer to your wife that way,

Typical netwit…  I was referring to you, fucksnack.

Response:

You could send the wife to driving school, or you could trade her in for a newer model.

At this point the word "fucker" comes to mind….  Thanks.. but there are other complaints about the same issue at the NHTSA website… I rather doubt this is isolated..

Response:

I dunno what to do or where to turn.  I’m calling a lawyer tomorrow to see what my options are.. Geez, don’t divorce the woman just because of an accident or two!

A product liability laywer… NOT a divorce lawyer… God I should know better than to ask about this shit on the usenet… It sure has turned into a shitheap in the last 10 years..

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I dunno what to do or where to turn.  I’m calling a lawyer tomorrow to see what my options are.. Geez, don’t divorce the woman just because of an accident or two! A product liability laywer… NOT a divorce lawyer… God I should know better than to ask about this shit on the usenet… It sure has turned into a shitheap in the last 10 years..

Hi… Not my place to comment, but nevertheless I’m completely certain they were teasing you… Take care. Ken

Response:

Not my place to comment, but nevertheless I’m completely certain they were teasing you…

And y’know.. they probably were.. but I have a hard time making jokes where the welfare of the mother of my children is concerned.. :-/

Response:

You could send the wife to driving school, or you could trade her in for a newer model. At this point the word "fucker" comes to mind….  Thanks.. but there are other complaints about the same issue at the NHTSA website… I rather doubt this is isolated..

I’m surprised to hear you refer to your wife that way, even if she was responsible for the two accidents. —Bob Gross—

Response:

Does anyone know if there is a ‘known issue’ with braking in the 2003 Century?  My wife has had TWO ACCIDENTS in the 5 months since we bought the car, both resulting from the brakes failing to stop the car…  On the NHTSA defect investigation website I’ve found two reports of similar problems, but nothing wrt recalls, etc. I dunno what to do or where to turn.  I’m calling a lawyer tomorrow to see what my options are.. Any advice would be appreciated.

Perhaps you have a model that didn’t come with ABS, just slamming on the brakes will definately make you slide around and hit something if your unable to steer away from it. Requires more proactive involvement by the driver.

Response:

Does anyone know if there is a ‘known issue’ with braking in the 2003 Century?  My wife has had TWO ACCIDENTS in the 5 months since we bought the car, both resulting from the brakes failing to stop the car…  On the NHTSA defect investigation website I’ve found two reports of similar problems, but nothing wrt recalls, etc.

Um…I think you better talk to your wife.  There isn’t anything wrong with the brakes on these cars.  But I do commend you for taking your wife’s side. I dunno what to do or where to turn.  I’m calling a lawyer tomorrow to see what my options are..

Geez, don’t divorce the woman just because of an accident or two! Ian

Response:

Does anyone know if there is a ‘known issue’ with braking in the 2003 Century?  My wife has had TWO ACCIDENTS in the 5 months since we bought the car, both resulting from the brakes failing to stop the car…  On the NHTSA defect investigation website I’ve found two reports of similar problems, but nothing wrt recalls, etc. I dunno what to do or where to turn.  I’m calling a lawyer tomorrow to see what my options are..

You could send the wife to driving school, or you could trade her in for a newer model. —Bob Gross—

Response:

Does anyone know if there is a ‘known issue’ with braking in the 2003 Century?  My wife has had TWO ACCIDENTS in the 5 months since we bought the car, both resulting from the brakes failing to stop the car…  On the NHTSA defect investigation website I’ve found two reports of similar problems, but nothing wrt recalls, etc. I dunno what to do or where to turn.  I’m calling a lawyer tomorrow to see what my options are.. Any advice would be appreciated.

Response:

Anger management problems

Question:

(off topic removed from subject line, because this post is most definately ON topic ) My wife and I both have tempers, but she flares quicker and much more dramatically than I do.  Once out of control, she has absolutely no cognitive reason at all.   She was a car accident victim at 16.  It was bad.  She lost teeth, broke both legs in seven areas, broke her arms, and suffered a skull fracture.  The oversea doctors did a subpar job.  But once she was out of the coma and flown back to the US, they put her back together nicely.  I still think there’s some Phineas Gage issues that ultimately lead to her emotional instability.  The damage to the skull was just above the right eyebrow.  Basically, I think she is partially labotomized. Below are the issues I wanted to address.  We both fail on them in some way or another: Leave when things get heated Stop yelling at top of the lungs (her problem) Stop throwing things (her problem) Stop throttling her (my problem) Stop attracting the attention of the police (three times in about six years) We seem no better off than we were six years ago.  My anger is reactionary against hers.  I can only take so much of this or that.  Once she hits me a couple of dozen times, I’m set to go off. If my favorite picture frame of my son gets thrown against the wall, I’m done.  I will go over to her, grab her neck and tell her "This stops right now."  Usually it doesn’t go this far. I try to leave.  She’ll block the way or follow me out of the complex screaming.  Or she’ll take my son and start telling him that I won’t be my daddy.  It’s embarrassing to leave that way.   It’s hard to leave when she’s pulling on my arm and screeching. It’s impossible to leave when she’s screaming "Run me over!" standing behind my car. So at this point, I’m embarrassed, angry, pissed, but I leave. And then all I think about is making her see what she looks like. A type of psychological warfare ensues.  I send her home to her mother.  She doesn’t get along with her mother either.  Actually, they have a more violent history than she does with me.  I know she doesn’t like living with her mother.  So I do it to let her taste the reality she takes for granted. I’m not particularly proud of doing this stuff.  But I want her to know that my hands aren’t tied.  If she wants to get physical, I will get mental.  I’ll get into her head and make life miserable. Usually, we reconcile a few days later promising to address the issue.  But we never have.  I agreed to take her back if she were to attend anger management.  But she didn’t like it much. She said grown men made up most of the group and had different issues than her.  She said one guy hit on her after a meeting.   She gave it a couple of weeks and quit with my blessings. We have two children.  Sadly, they see a lot of the problems. I’m always ripped up with these fights.  I threaten divorce.  And I mean it when I do.  I’m so angry, I just want it to end.  I’ve ended up in a room crying in the corner with my son asking over and over what’s wrong.  My wife comes in with some memory and throws it all over the room.  So there I am with my son laughing because all of my photographs are fluttering to the floor.  He thinks it’s a game.  My wife is grinning ear to ear. I’ve worked six long years to tame this shrew.  And I’ve made some progress.  She’s never been motivated.  I’ve gotten her to cook a handful of dishes: mac and cheese, stuffed chicken, taco soup… simple stuff.  But it’s better than the 21 meals of taco bell she used to feed my kid.   I don’t know what to do.  I keep setting ultimatums.  "If you do this one more time…"  They fail of course.  I’m bipolar.  The problem could very well be mine.  I’ve had instable relationships before. Anyone know where this fits on the anger management scale?  Is it pretty awful?  Or is it something therapy can overcome? Should I be looking for a psychiatrist or a divorce lawyer? Thanks for listening. Brian

Response:

Is there a good reason the two of you haven’t gone to counseling together to deal with this?! Get your kids somewhere safe & stable…. which may not even be with you OR your wife. This is not cool. If you two get violent with each other, it’s a two way thing… not just her. You’re both scary and need to get help. Please put your children first, because it doesn’t seem like you are right now. They MUST be somewhere where they won’t have to witness this through it and stay a family. Good luck. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – (off topic removed from subject line, because this post is most definately ON topic ) My wife and I both have tempers, but she flares quicker and much more dramatically than I do.  Once out of control, she has absolutely no cognitive reason at all. She was a car accident victim at 16.  It was bad.  She lost teeth, broke both legs in seven areas, broke her arms, and suffered a skull fracture.  The oversea doctors did a subpar job.  But once she was out of the coma and flown back to the US, they put her back together nicely.  I still think there’s some Phineas Gage issues that ultimately lead to her emotional instability.  The damage to the skull was just above the right eyebrow.  Basically, I think she is partially labotomized. Below are the issues I wanted to address.  We both fail on them in some way or another: Leave when things get heated Stop yelling at top of the lungs (her problem) Stop throwing things (her problem) Stop throttling her (my problem) Stop attracting the attention of the police (three times in about six years) We seem no better off than we were six years ago.  My anger is reactionary against hers.  I can only take so much of this or that.  Once she hits me a couple of dozen times, I’m set to go off. If my favorite picture frame of my son gets thrown against the wall, I’m done.  I will go over to her, grab her neck and tell her "This stops right now."  Usually it doesn’t go this far. I try to leave.  She’ll block the way or follow me out of the complex screaming.  Or she’ll take my son and start telling him that I won’t be my daddy.  It’s embarrassing to leave that way. It’s hard to leave when she’s pulling on my arm and screeching. It’s impossible to leave when she’s screaming "Run me over!" standing behind my car. So at this point, I’m embarrassed, angry, pissed, but I leave. And then all I think about is making her see what she looks like. A type of psychological warfare ensues.  I send her home to her mother.  She doesn’t get along with her mother either.  Actually, they have a more violent history than she does with me.  I know she doesn’t like living with her mother.  So I do it to let her taste the reality she takes for granted. I’m not particularly proud of doing this stuff.  But I want her to know that my hands aren’t tied.  If she wants to get physical, I will get mental.  I’ll get into her head and make life miserable. Usually, we reconcile a few days later promising to address the issue.  But we never have.  I agreed to take her back if she were to attend anger management.  But she didn’t like it much. She said grown men made up most of the group and had different issues than her.  She said one guy hit on her after a meeting. She gave it a couple of weeks and quit with my blessings. We have two children.  Sadly, they see a lot of the problems. I’m always ripped up with these fights.  I threaten divorce.  And I mean it when I do.  I’m so angry, I just want it to end.  I’ve ended up in a room crying in the corner with my son asking over and over what’s wrong.  My wife comes in with some memory and throws it all over the room.  So there I am with my son laughing because all of my photographs are fluttering to the floor.  He thinks it’s a game.  My wife is grinning ear to ear. I’ve worked six long years to tame this shrew.  And I’ve made some progress.  She’s never been motivated.  I’ve gotten her to cook a handful of dishes: mac and cheese, stuffed chicken, taco soup… simple stuff.  But it’s better than the 21 meals of taco bell she used to feed my kid. I don’t know what to do.  I keep setting ultimatums.  "If you do this one more time…"  They fail of course.  I’m bipolar.  The problem could very well be mine.  I’ve had instable relationships before. Anyone know where this fits on the anger management scale?  Is it pretty awful?  Or is it something therapy can overcome? Should I be looking for a psychiatrist or a divorce lawyer? Thanks for listening. Brian

Response:

Nancy gave you some good advice — Your wife needs to see a neurologist who specializes in brain injury. I’ll add that anger can be a symptom of mental illness in the more "conventional" sense, i.e. like clinical depression or bipolar disorder. I personally suffered from tremendous feelings of rage for a while, which were far out of proportion to any stimuli. I knew this, but was unable to do anything to dampen the rage. Then I started taking Depakote, and the rage simply vanished, never to return. So there may be simple medical solutions for anger that you wouldn’t even think to look for. Bottom line: Your wife should see a neurologist who specializes in brain injury, *AND* a psychiatrist who does likewise. The specialties overlap less than you might think. You should see a psychiatrist. Both of you should discuss the problems you are having with your physicians, and see what kinds of help are available. — Nom dePlume, Ph.D Why, yes, in fact, I am a rocket scientist. Guide to Medications for Mental Illness: http://www.geocities.com/nomdeplume1000 =====

(off topic removed from subject line, because this post is most

definately ON topic ) – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – My wife and I both have tempers, but she flares quicker and much more dramatically than I do.  Once out of control, she has absolutely no cognitive reason at all. She was a car accident victim at 16.  It was bad.  She lost teeth, broke both legs in seven areas, broke her arms, and suffered a skull fracture.  The oversea doctors did a subpar job.  But once she was out of the coma and flown back to the US, they put her back together nicely.  I still think there’s some Phineas Gage issues that ultimately lead to her emotional instability.  The damage to the skull was just above the right eyebrow.  Basically, I think she is partially labotomized. Below are the issues I wanted to address.  We both fail on them in some way or another: Leave when things get heated Stop yelling at top of the lungs (her problem) Stop throwing things (her problem) Stop throttling her (my problem) Stop attracting the attention of the police (three times in about six years) We seem no better off than we were six years ago.  My anger is reactionary against hers.  I can only take so much of this or that.  Once she hits me a couple of dozen times, I’m set to go off. If my favorite picture frame of my son gets thrown against the wall, I’m done.  I will go over to her, grab her neck and tell her "This stops right now."  Usually it doesn’t go this far. I try to leave.  She’ll block the way or follow me out of the complex screaming.  Or she’ll take my son and start telling him that I won’t be my daddy.  It’s embarrassing to leave that way. It’s hard to leave when she’s pulling on my arm and screeching. It’s impossible to leave when she’s screaming "Run me over!" standing behind my car. So at this point, I’m embarrassed, angry, pissed, but I leave. And then all I think about is making her see what she looks like. A type of psychological warfare ensues.  I send her home to her mother.  She doesn’t get along with her mother either.  Actually, they have a more violent history than she does with me.  I know she doesn’t like living with her mother.  So I do it to let her taste the reality she takes for granted. I’m not particularly proud of doing this stuff.  But I want her to know that my hands aren’t tied.  If she wants to get physical, I will get mental.  I’ll get into her head and make life miserable. Usually, we reconcile a few days later promising to address the issue.  But we never have.  I agreed to take her back if she were to attend anger management.  But she didn’t like it much. She said grown men made up most of the group and had different issues than her.  She said one guy hit on her after a meeting. She gave it a couple of weeks and quit with my blessings. We have two children.  Sadly, they see a lot of the problems. I’m always ripped up with these fights.  I threaten divorce.  And I mean it when I do.  I’m so angry, I just want it to end.  I’ve ended up in a room crying in the corner with my son asking over and over what’s wrong.  My wife comes in with some memory and throws it all over the room.  So there I am with my son laughing because all of my photographs are fluttering to the floor.  He thinks it’s a game.  My wife is grinning ear to ear. I’ve worked six long years to tame this shrew.  And I’ve made some progress.  She’s never been motivated.  I’ve gotten her to cook a handful of dishes: mac and cheese, stuffed chicken, taco soup… simple stuff.  But it’s better than the 21 meals of taco bell she used to feed my kid. I don’t know what to do.  I keep setting ultimatums.  "If you do this one more time…"  They fail of course.  I’m bipolar.  The problem could very well be mine.  I’ve had instable relationships before. Anyone know where this fits on the anger management scale?  Is it pretty awful?  Or is it something therapy can overcome? Should I be looking for a psychiatrist or a divorce lawyer? Thanks for listening. Brian

Response:

A LITTLE COMMON SENSE? Are you kidding? By insinuating that I have been "fondled by an uncle" or otherwise abused, you just went way overboard. You’re not looking for objective advice, but a pity party.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – If you two get violent with each other, it’s a two way thing… not just her. Um.  No.  I have my faults, but there are definitely head injuries that cause a lack of motivation, emotionally instability, and a hair trigger personality.  She had such a head injury.  She displays violent tendencies with others (history extends before my time) and she went from a promising premed student to a receptionist. Wait a minute here… you admitted to throttling her for throwing a picture… that’s pretty severely out of line. So please, take some responsibility. I’m not saying it’s an even 50/50 split, but you never have a reason to throttle your partner. No I didn’t admit that.  I walked away from her after throwing the picture. I’ve reacted to violence that went much further.  I’m the one who usually walks away from these things bloodied up.  I’m scarred from nail scratches. She once broke a nail on me in the past.  I mean, I’m not complaining about the pain.  But it is very embarrassing to walk into my office with a scratched up neck and scabbed face.   It’s even harder to go into meetings this way.  I own covergirl makeup. The time I throttled her was after she was inconsolably screaming.  I was asking her to be quiet.  She was screaming as a weapon besides being violent.  And that weapon is what I call "trial by neighbors."  She wanted to voice some injustice she felt.  The neighbors frankly didn’t care. They were likely to call the police or call the home owners.  I throttled her because I wanted her to be quiet before either of those happened. But look, I know a lot of women have violence issues here that are close to home.  Rather than project those onto me, just forget about the original post. After a three week coma, do you REALLY think she missed the neurological workups?  Do you think she didn’t have a dedicated doctor to her case? What information about frontal lobe injuries did I miss?  Fill me in instead of accusing me of not researching.  Seriously.  Give me a link that tells me something I don’t already know.  I have a library card to one of the finest UC libraries and direct personal access to multi-million dollar grant oriented research scientists.  What do you know that I don’t? I looked for advice in the wrong area and am getting trashed in it. So let me conclude by pointing out that if you were fondled by some uncle, it does not project onto all men.  Violence is not 50/50. And for god’s sake, someone doesn’t survive a coma of three weeks without seeing a doctor. Sorry to be a little hard on you guys, but some common sense please.

Response:

I don’t think you’re "getting" what is being said.  Nobody is challenging your assessment of your girlfriend’s violence or why she is violent (or at least nobody in the post’s I’ve read).  But she isn’t the one who posted here – you are.  If she were asking for help, I’d suggest she speak with a neurologist about getting on some meds to control her anger outbursts, and get therapy to help her deal with them.  But she isn’t asking for help.  You are.  As I see it, you have two choices when she is hurting you.  You can leave.  Or you can let her hurt you.  Notice that losing your temper and hitting back isn’t an option.  If she is screaming, you can leave the house, or put in earplugs.  Throttling her to make her be quiet is NOT an acceptable option.  You control YOUR actions.  You are responsible if you hit her, whether she is hitting you or not.  Do you have brain injuries that make you unable to control your anger?  Walking away is a good option.  If you can’t control your temper even when she is losing hers, you should leave her so you don’t hurt her.   Insisting that she do everything in her power to get help is also a good idea.  And leaving her if she doesn’t get help, or isn’t able to recover, may be the only option if you want to not end up in jail for abusing a disabled person.  She may not have control of her actions, you you control your own.  In all honesty, if she is as bad as you make it sound, she is a danger to others, and she may end up in an institution herself, in order to protect herself and others.  And please – do not expose your children to this even briefly.  There is nothing worse than being a child and having to watch your parent in a violent situation. Diane

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – If you two get violent with each other, it’s a two way thing… not just her. Um.  No.  I have my faults, but there are definitely head injuries that cause a lack of motivation, emotionally instability, and a hair trigger personality.  She had such a head injury.  She displays violent tendencies with others (history extends before my time) and she went from a promising premed student to a receptionist. Wait a minute here… you admitted to throttling her for throwing a picture… that’s pretty severely out of line. So please, take some responsibility. I’m not saying it’s an even 50/50 split, but you never have a reason to throttle your partner. No I didn’t admit that.  I walked away from her after throwing the picture. I’ve reacted to violence that went much further.  I’m the one who usually walks away from these things bloodied up.  I’m scarred from nail scratches. She once broke a nail on me in the past.  I mean, I’m not complaining about the pain.  But it is very embarrassing to walk into my office with a scratched up neck and scabbed face.   It’s even harder to go into meetings this way.  I own covergirl makeup. The time I throttled her was after she was inconsolably screaming.  I was asking her to be quiet.  She was screaming as a weapon besides being violent.  And that weapon is what I call "trial by neighbors."  She wanted to voice some injustice she felt.  The neighbors frankly didn’t care. They were likely to call the police or call the home owners.  I throttled her because I wanted her to be quiet before either of those happened. But look, I know a lot of women have violence issues here that are close to home.  Rather than project those onto me, just forget about the original post. After a three week coma, do you REALLY think she missed the neurological workups?  Do you think she didn’t have a dedicated doctor to her case? What information about frontal lobe injuries did I miss?  Fill me in instead of accusing me of not researching.  Seriously.  Give me a link that tells me something I don’t already know.  I have a library card to one of the finest UC libraries and direct personal access to multi-million dollar grant oriented research scientists.  What do you know that I don’t? I looked for advice in the wrong area and am getting trashed in it. So let me conclude by pointing out that if you were fondled by some uncle, it does not project onto all men.  Violence is not 50/50. And for god’s sake, someone doesn’t survive a coma of three weeks without seeing a doctor. Sorry to be a little hard on you guys, but some common sense please.

Response:

If you two get violent with each other, it’s a two way thing… not just her. Um.  No.  I have my faults, but there are definitely head injuries that cause a lack of motivation, emotionally instability, and a hair trigger personality.  She had such a head injury.  She displays violent tendencies with others (history extends before my time) and she went from a promising premed student to a receptionist. Wait a minute here… you admitted to throttling her for throwing a picture… that’s pretty severely out of line. So please, take some responsibility. I’m not saying it’s an even 50/50 split, but you never have a reason to throttle your partner.

No I didn’t admit that.  I walked away from her after throwing the picture. I’ve reacted to violence that went much further.  I’m the one who usually walks away from these things bloodied up.  I’m scarred from nail scratches.   She once broke a nail on me in the past.  I mean, I’m not complaining about the pain.  But it is very embarrassing to walk into my office with a scratched up neck and scabbed face.   It’s even harder to go into meetings this way.  I own covergirl makeup. The time I throttled her was after she was inconsolably screaming.  I was asking her to be quiet.  She was screaming as a weapon besides being violent.  And that weapon is what I call "trial by neighbors."  She wanted to voice some injustice she felt.  The neighbors frankly didn’t care.  They were likely to call the police or call the home owners.  I throttled her because I wanted her to be quiet before either of those happened. But look, I know a lot of women have violence issues here that are close to home.  Rather than project those onto me, just forget about the original post. After a three week coma, do you REALLY think she missed the neurological workups?  Do you think she didn’t have a dedicated doctor to her case? What information about frontal lobe injuries did I miss?  Fill me in instead of accusing me of not researching.  Seriously.  Give me a link that tells me something I don’t already know.  I have a library card to one of the finest UC libraries and direct personal access to multi-million dollar grant oriented research scientists.  What do you know that I don’t? I looked for advice in the wrong area and am getting trashed in it. So let me conclude by pointing out that if you were fondled by some uncle, it does not project onto all men.  Violence is not 50/50. And for god’s sake, someone doesn’t survive a coma of three weeks without seeing a doctor. Sorry to be a little hard on you guys, but some common sense please.

Response:

If you two get violent with each other, it’s a two way thing… not just her. Um.  No.  I have my faults, but there are definitely head injuries that cause a lack of motivation, emotionally instability, and a hair trigger personality.  She had such a head injury.  She displays violent tendencies with others (history extends before my time) and she went from a promising premed student to a receptionist.

Wait a minute here… you admitted to throttling her for throwing a picture… that’s pretty severely out of line. So please, take some responsibility. I’m not saying it’s an even 50/50 split, but you never have a reason to throttle your partner.

Response:

Is there a good reason the two of you haven’t gone to counseling together to deal with this?!

We have.  We’ve gone to three counselors, from early in the marriage to about three months ago.  Couseling is difficult for me.  Three different counselors have three different opinions.  It’s hard for me to understand that.   Counselor one was a young guy, unmarried, who had a lot of textbooks on the shelves.  I thought he was inexperienced.  Counselor two was all about a "respect formula" which, to me, felt like a veneer and failed to address any real issue.  The third was a bit radical.  She suggested we get divorced on the initial meeting based on my wife becoming violent in the office.  My wife felt defensive. Get your kids somewhere safe & stable…. which may not even be with you OR your wife. This is not cool.

My youngest is actually with my parents 2500 miles away.  That’s pretty safe.  I just took my older boy back.  I sent both to live with my parents while I finished school.  School plus full time work meant I was literally out of the house at 6:00 am and back at 10:00 pm. My wife would be incapable of providing the care the kids needed on her own. If you two get violent with each other, it’s a two way thing… not just her.

Um.  No.  I have my faults, but there are definitely head injuries that cause a lack of motivation, emotionally instability, and a hair trigger personality.  She had such a head injury.  She displays violent tendencies with others (history extends before my time) and she went from a promising premed student to a receptionist.   I don’t think most abuse experts would agree with you, although my example is a bit novel because the roles are reversed.  I’m not wearing a wife beater and I don’t drink.   You’re both scary and need to get help.

Well, I would agree with that.   Please put your children first, because it doesn’t seem like you are right now. They MUST be somewhere where they won’t have to witness this through it and stay a family. Good luck.

Thanks.  I’m of the mind that divorce is the way to go.  The radical counselor (aye, so many opinions among professionals!) listened to my worries with my kids.  She told me that they wouldn’t have a good childhood no matter what I did.  I needed to realize that and let the divorce do what it might.  I think that was the point where I stopped seeing her. But she may have been right.  We’ve gone through a lot of different techniques.  We’ve drilled on just getting away and cooling off, what zero policy means, what the line is and why it needs to be respected and none of it works.   I sent her back to her mother’s house.  I have a couple of days to think it over and then get things rolling in the new month.  But again, thank you for the advice and the perspective.

Response:

ether: (off topic removed from subject line, because this post is most definately ON topic ) My wife and I both have tempers, but she flares quicker and much more dramatically than I do.  Once out of control, she has absolutely no cognitive reason at all.   She was a car accident victim at 16.  It was bad.  She lost teeth, broke both legs in seven areas, broke her arms, and suffered a skull fracture.  The oversea doctors did a subpar job.  But once she was out of the coma and flown back to the US, they put her back together nicely.  I still think there’s some Phineas Gage issues that ultimately lead to her emotional instability.  The damage to the skull was just above the right eyebrow.  Basically, I think she is partially labotomized.

She needs to see a neurosurgeon–right NOW!  How can you assess what she is capable of and what she isn’t without a good neurological exam?  Traumatic Brain Injury is a serious disorder which will follow her the rest of her life.  She needs medical attention.  Any counselor in their right mind would try to deal with this issue first.  IMO Below are the issues I wanted to address.  We both fail on them in some way or another: Leave when things get heated

Not always the best solution, could anger her more. Stop yelling at top of the lungs (her problem)

See a doctor.  She may have trauma induced Tourettes Syndrome–it is treatable to some degree. Stop throwing things (her problem)

She has to deal with this with a medical doctor.  Preferable one versed in traumatic brain injury. Stop throttling her (my problem)

You need to fully understand why she does what she does and the first stop is neurology. Stop attracting the attention of the police (three times in about six years)

That can’t be addressed, until and unless she is fully evaluated for her traumatic brain injury.  Then counseling with someone who is familiar with traumatic brain injury–you need a special kind of therapy–because of your wife’s medical situation.  So far, you haven’t been there. (snip) So at this point, I’m embarrassed, angry, pissed, but I leave. And then all I think about is making her see what she looks like. A type of psychological warfare ensues.  I send her home to her mother.  She doesn’t get along with her mother either.  Actually, they have a more violent history than she does with me.  I know she doesn’t like living with her mother.  So I do it to let her taste the reality she takes for granted. I’m not particularly proud of doing this stuff.  But I want her to know that my hands aren’t tied.  If she wants to get physical, I will get mental.  I’ll get into her head and make life miserable.

That is very poor behavior on your part.  Tit for tat will get you nowhere in this world.  You don’t seem to fully understand why your wife does what she does–she can’t help it–she has a brain injury. Usually, we reconcile a few days later promising to address the issue.  But we never have.  I agreed to take her back if she were to attend anger management.  But she didn’t like it much. She said grown men made up most of the group and had different issues than her.  She said one guy hit on her after a meeting.   She gave it a couple of weeks and quit with my blessings.

Anger management can actually harm a person with traumatic brain injury–becuase that person’s brain doesn’t work like the rest of us.  Your wife was smart to quit the class.  IMO We have two children.  Sadly, they see a lot of the problems. I’m always ripped up with these fights.  I threaten divorce.  And I mean it when I do.  I’m so angry, I just want it to end.  I’ve ended up in a room crying in the corner with my son asking over and over what’s wrong.  My wife comes in with some memory and throws it all over the room.  So there I am with my son laughing because all of my photographs are fluttering to the floor.  He thinks it’s a game.  My wife is grinning ear to ear.

You need to act fast, to protect your children–they are your first priority. And you and your wife and care givers need to be consistent in how you deal with the children.  I suggest you get Dr. Phil’s book, Relationship Rescue. I’ve worked six long years to tame this shrew.  And I’ve made some progress.  She’s never been motivated.  I’ve gotten her to cook a handful of dishes: mac and cheese, stuffed chicken, taco soup… simple stuff.  But it’s better than the 21 meals of taco bell she used to feed my kid.  

Your attitude sucks.  "Tame this shrew"???  Please do some research on Traumatic Brain Injury.  Maybe you should have done this before you got married? I don’t know what to do.  I keep setting ultimatums.  "If you do this one more time…"  They fail of course.  I’m bipolar.  The problem could very well be mine.  I’ve had instable relationships before.

LIke that is going to help a sick person.  I know it isn’t easy for you, but you haven’t taken ANY steps to make things better medically, so why do you expect her behavior to change with you setting ultimatums? Anyone know where this fits on the anger management scale?  Is it pretty awful?  Or is it something therapy can overcome?

It’s off the scale.  It can be overcome to one degree or another, but the neurologists and your counselor need to work with both of you. Should I be looking for a psychiatrist or a divorce lawyer?

IMO, you don’t look for a divorce lawyer until there is nothing left to try. I’ve given you lots of things to try–so I’d say, hold off on calling an attorney.   Just a thought I had:  What will it look like in divorce court when HER attorney describes her injury and its ramifications and makes you look like a fool who never tried to get her real medical help?  It could get nasty–but if you do everything you can (seeing a neurologist or specialist in traumatic brain injury), you will be squeaky clean if and when the time comes. I’m sorry to be so hard on you.  You sound like you have already given up, when IMO, you haven’t even gotten started. You sound like a caring person, can you hang in there another year or so, while your wife gets evaluated? JMAO, Nancy Just knockin’ around the zoo. (James Taylor)

Response:

Separation Agreements

Question:

Ontario

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Do Separation agreements have to be registered? Me and my wife downloaded a sample copy of the agreement, filled it and signed it. However it was between her and me. Is this enough if we want to file for divorce or it doesn’t count My Ex(#1) and I went 2.5 years with only a verbal separation agreement (home, kids, cars, debit). when it came time for the divorce the self done divorce papers breezed through the courts without a hitch. The judge did not even call us before her in and signed off on it without any changes. It really depends on your personal situation and your particular jurisdiction. What Province are you in? John

Response:

In my case, there is actually nothing to do with children, finance etc. Mine was a genuine marriage, and it didn’t work. I am about to apply for canadian citizenship..and they somehow suspect if a couple got separated after a year of marriage may be a mariage of convenience. So I wanted to know if I am techincally still married as I am not yet divorced (and the divorce would be after 3 years so less suspectful to them) or I should put separated in the citizenship application ( no dates, just marital status) and if they check with the court , they won’t find anything as ours was only an agreement.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Do Separation agreements have to be registered? Me and my wife downloaded a sample copy of the agreement, filled it and signed it. However it was between her and me. Is this enough if we want to file for divorce or it doesn’t count. As another poster said, in some places, these are privare agreements and as such, may be enforceable in an action to recover damages in a court of law like a contract for the delivery of goods and services, but if you want a court to order specific performance of its terms, it would have to be presented to the divorce court for approval. [Rog']

Response:

In my case, there is actually nothing to do with children, finance etc. Mine was a genuine marriage, and it didn’t work. I am about to apply for canadian citizenship…and they somehow suspect if a couple got separated after a year of marriage may be a mariage of convenience. So I wanted to know if I am techincally still married as I am not yet divorced (and the divorce would be after 3 years so less suspectful to them) or I should put separated in the citizenship application (no dates, just marital status) and if they check with the court, they won’t find anything as ours was only an agreement.

Look, these agreements merely assist the parties in managing their affairs while separated and set forth terms for a divorce.  They are not a substitute for a legal divorce.   The signing such an agreement does not invalidate a marriage.  AFAIK, there is no reason to record or register the agreement, unless for some reason you want to put the public on notice that your marriage is on the rocks.  [Rog']

Response:

I forgot to mention, they were 2 witnesses. 2 from each

Well, if those witnesses signed the document as such, then you should be Okay with the divorce process.  It’s still a good idea to check the specific requirements of your province, though. — "Rudeness is the weak man’s imitation of strength"

Response:

I forgot to mention, they were 2 witnesses. 2 from each

AFAIK, separation agreements do not need to be recorded or registered to be effective between the parties.  Most contracts never see the light of day.  If you want to keep it private, then it will stay private, as most contracts are. But if one party fails to comply, the aggrieved party goes to court and attaches the contract to the pleadings. Even if recorded or registered, it is not a substitute for a legal divorce.  All it is, is a recitation of the conditions by which you live apart and the terms by which you intend to dissolve your marriage.  When you file for divorce, it will need to filed with the pleadings.  [Rog']

Response:

Ontario

Ahhh yes, Ontario – the centre of the universe! Although judging by the way Martin has been handing out federal cash here in BC you would think we had a little more influence on the out come of the next election then ever before. Is your STBX being co-operative? Do you trust her? My ex was both of those coupled with a bit of guilt on her part. She made too much money to qualify for legal aid but not enough to afford bringing a lawyer into the mix. All these helped pave the way for a very amicable, affordable split for both of us, with 50/50 custody of our two boys (7 and 11 at the time. Good luck! John – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Do Separation agreements have to be registered? Me and my wife downloaded a sample copy of the agreement, filled it and signed it. However it was between her and me. Is this enough if we want to file for divorce or it doesn’t count My Ex(#1) and I went 2.5 years with only a verbal separation agreement (home, kids, cars, debit). when it came time for the divorce the self done divorce papers breezed through the courts without a hitch. The judge did not even call us before her in and signed off on it without any changes. It really depends on your personal situation and your particular jurisdiction. What Province are you in? John

Response:

I forgot to mention, they were 2 witnesses. 2 from each

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Do Separation agreements have to be registered? Me and my wife downloaded a sample copy of the agreement, filled it and signed it. However it was between her and me. Is this enough if we want to file for divorce … Not in Canada, it isn’t. For a separation agreement to be accepted by a Canadian court, it must have been witnessed.  There might be specific Provincial requirements in this regard as well. And do note that, depending on the Province, that agreement can have implications outside of divorce court.  In Alberta, for example, a properly executed separation agreement is taken to be a private contract between consenting adults, and as such is enforceable not only in divorce court, but in the Court of Queens Bench as a civil contract dispute for a period of up to two years after the divorce judgement is rendered. I would advise getting the Nolo Press divorce guide for your province. We used it in drafting our separation agreement, and it was very helpful.  And frankly, it’s a whole lot better in dealing with issues such as yours than relying on casual advice given by strangers on the Internet. — "Rudeness is the weak man’s imitation of strength"

Response:

Do Separation agreements have to be registered? Me and my wife downloaded a sample copy of the agreement, filled it and signed it. However it was between her and me. Is this enough if we want to file for divorce or it doesn’t count

In general, unless it’s officially approved by a judge, it means nothing.  Your local statute may vary, but I doubt it. — Whose cruel idea was it to put an ’s’ in the word lisp?

Response:

Do Separation agreements have to be registered? Me and my wife downloaded a sample copy of the agreement, filled it and signed it. However it was between her and me. Is this enough if we want to file for divorce or it doesn’t count

My Ex(#1) and I went 2.5 years with only a verbal separation agreement (home, kids, cars, debit). when it came time for the divorce the self done divorce papers breezed through the courts without a hitch. The judge did not even call us before her in and signed off on it without any changes. It really depends on your personal situation and your particular jurisdiction. What Province are you in? John

Response:

With us: We had a separation for 3 years before we filed the paperwork with a quickey divorce lawyer.  Neither one of us were questioned and we bothed signed the paper stating we were separated for more than a year.  The laws vary state to state from what I remember. Rebecca

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Do Separation agreements have to be registered? Me and my wife downloaded a sample copy of the agreement, filled it and signed it. However it was between her and me. Is this enough if we want to file for divorce or it doesn’t count

Response:

Do Separation agreements have to be registered? Me and my wife downloaded a sample copy of the agreement, filled it and signed it. However it was between her and me. Is this enough if we want to file for divorce or it doesn’t count.

As another poster said, in some places, these are privare agreements and as such, may be enforceable in an action to recover damages in a court of law like a contract for the delivery of goods and services, but if you want a court to order specific performance of its terms, it would have to be presented to the divorce court for approval. [Rog']

Response:

Do Separation agreements have to be registered? Me and my wife downloaded a sample copy of the agreement, filled it and signed it. However it was between her and me. Is this enough if we want to file for divorce or it doesn’t count

Response:

Do Separation agreements have to be registered? Me and my wife downloaded a sample copy of the agreement, filled it and signed it. However it was between her and me. Is this enough if we want to file for divorce …

Not in Canada, it isn’t. For a separation agreement to be accepted by a Canadian court, it must have been witnessed.  There might be specific Provincial requirements in this regard as well. And do note that, depending on the Province, that agreement can have implications outside of divorce court.  In Alberta, for example, a properly executed separation agreement is taken to be a private contract between consenting adults, and as such is enforceable not only in divorce court, but in the Court of Queens Bench as a civil contract dispute for a period of up to two years after the divorce judgement is rendered. I would advise getting the Nolo Press divorce guide for your province. We used it in drafting our separation agreement, and it was very helpful.  And frankly, it’s a whole lot better in dealing with issues such as yours than relying on casual advice given by strangers on the Internet. — "Rudeness is the weak man’s imitation of strength"

Response:

Child support vs posesion

Question:

The main casue of the situation is her work schedule, but there is more than that as she will quicky come up with an excuse not to pick the child up if she wants to do something else, or she is tired, or had sore throat, or whatever.  And I do not mind as I am very happy to have the child with me, but the whole things seems rather stupid as I knew this is how it was going to be, but thanks for the advice from all of you.  I will find out what records need to be kept to prove what is going on and just wait for time to pass untill something needs to be done. Thanks

You have gotten some very good advice here to document the change in circumstances. I agree that revisiting a freshly ordered divorce is problematic, but document this over a 12 month period and you have a case any judge would find hard to deny. The 10 minutes a day it takes to do this is worth every minute invested.

Response:

You have way to much fun at work. LOL – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Speaking of which, I did a depo last week which some here may find amusing… not the subject matter, which is domestic violence, but the character of the testimony by the "wife’s" father: Husband and wife argue. He’s drunk as a skunk and out of control, so she calls her father.  Her father shows up and gets in husband’s face.  Husband pushes her father, who falls flat on his back with his arms and legs in the air, as he describes it, "Like a bug that’s been sprayed with Raid." Wife pulls the hubby off her father by his collar.  Husband gets up and runs out the front, then full-speed smack into a pine tree.  "It was like in the ‘Road Runner’ when the coyote realizes that he’s just been screwed.  He says, ‘Oh, Shit!’ and falls over flat.  Then he gets up and runs off like some squirrel.  You’d probably still get his DNA off that tree." BTW, he’s not really her husband.  "Why is that?"  Becuz he never divorced his 1st wife.  Lovely fellow.  [Roger]

Response:

Because you are a CRIMINAL lawyer, Rog’, not a divorce lawyer. I probably know more theoretical divorce law than you. Really, Rog’ you make your living dealing with thugs and punks, drunks, dopers, rapists and violent psychotics. Stick to it – because you could NEVER stomach what goes on in Family Court.

I’m sorry, I’m having a hard time differentiating between the two. Rambler

Response:

    I dunno. My exs tend to do a lot of criminal acts. It darned sure sounds like I needed a criminal lawyer rather than a divorce lawyer. I woulda gotten further. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Because you are a CRIMINAL lawyer, Rog’, not a divorce lawyer. I probably know more theoretical divorce law than you. Really, Rog’ you make your living dealing with thugs and punks, drunks, dopers, rapists and violent psychotics. Stick to it – because you could NEVER stomach what goes on in Family Court. I’m sorry, I’m having a hard time differentiating between the two. Rambler

Response:

Rog, ….a few weeks ago, you told us about a 15-year-old boy that you were representing.  His parents didn’t want him; in fact, his mother wanted him locked up if I remember, because it was cheaper for her that way.  What has become of him?  Is he OK?

I’ll be seeing him again for court tomorrow.  He’s living with a friend of the family, who’s considering filing for guardianship. So, I guess, stay-turned is best we can do for now. [R]

Response:

    Good. I hope they get him.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Rog, ….a few weeks ago, you told us about a 15-year-old boy that you were representing.  His parents didn’t want him; in fact, his mother wanted him locked up if I remember, because it was cheaper for her that way.  What has become of him?  Is he OK? I’ll be seeing him again for court tomorrow.  He’s living with a friend of the family, who’s considering filing for guardianship. So, I guess, stay-turned is best we can do for now. [R]

Response:

I got divorced last year and am the NCP, paying the 20%, but i have posesion of the child 70% of the time. Is there a way to change custody.  I don’t want any support, but do feel like I should pay if child is with me most of the time. How long most one wait before trying to do something about it. Thanks

you have an excellent shot at getting custody. Here’s my proposed plan: 1. Hire another lawyer 2. Continue this pattern, while documenting it very well, for some time, as suggested by your lawyer. Do not tell your wife about it and continue paying prompty. After a year or two, getting custody should be very possible. What is the cause of this situation? — char*p="char*p=%c%s%c;main(){printf(p,34,p,34);}";main(){printf(p,34,p,34); }                 "It’s never too late to have a happy childhood."

Response:

The main casue of the situation is her work schedule, but there is more than that as she will quicky come up with an excuse not to pick the child up if she wants to do something else, or she is tired, or had sore throat, or whatever.  And I do not mind as I am very happy to have the child with me, but the whole things seems rather stupid as I knew this is how it was going to be, but thanks for the advice from all of you.  I will find out what records need to be kept to prove what is going on and just wait for time to pass untill something needs to be done. Thanks

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I got divorced last year and am the NCP, paying the 20%, but i have posesion of the child 70% of the time. Is there a way to change custody.  I don’t want any support, but do feel like I should pay if child is with me most of the time. How long most one wait before trying to do something about it. Thanks you have an excellent shot at getting custody. Here’s my proposed plan: 1. Hire another lawyer 2. Continue this pattern, while documenting it very well, for some time, as suggested by your lawyer. Do not tell your wife about it and continue paying prompty. After a year or two, getting custody should be very possible. What is the cause of this situation? — —

char*p="char*p=%c%s%c;main(){printf(p,34,p,34);}";main(){printf(p,34,p,34); } – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – "It’s never too late to have a happy childhood."

Response:

Good luck, brother. Remember – As long as you put the child’s needs first, you’ll never go wrong. Best – Fido – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – The main casue of the situation is her work schedule, but there is more than that as she will quicky come up with an excuse not to pick the child up if she wants to do something else, or she is tired, or had sore throat, or whatever.  And I do not mind as I am very happy to have the child with me, but the whole things seems rather stupid as I knew this is how it was going to be, but thanks for the advice from all of you.  I will find out what records need to be kept to prove what is going on and just wait for time to pass untill something needs to be done. Thanks I got divorced last year and am the NCP, paying the 20%, but i have posesion of the child 70% of the time. Is there a way to change custody.  I don’t want any support, but do feel like I should pay if child is with me most of the time. How long most one wait before trying to do something about it. Thanks you have an excellent shot at getting custody. Here’s my proposed plan: 1. Hire another lawyer 2. Continue this pattern, while documenting it very well, for some time, as suggested by your lawyer. Do not tell your wife about it and continue paying prompty. After a year or two, getting custody should be very possible. What is the cause of this situation? — — — char*p="char*p=%c%s%c;main(){printf(p,34,p,34);}";main(){printf(p,34,p,3 4);} "It’s never too late to have a happy childhood."

Response:

Fido’s replies were way better than mine (how’d that happen?). I’m not sure that he needs to wait till the pattern’s been in place for a full year (not in my state anyway) but having documents & witnesses who can testify that he is really the primary care-giver and not just babysitting for these hours is essential. [R] – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Anyway, courts are reluctant to revisit brand new decisions, but that may vary due to the different court systems. And, I suspect that you feel that if you petitioned the court now your ex may fight the change by refusing your extended visitation. One strategy I have seen offered in these cases is to let the situation go as it is for a year, document the visitation time, THEN go in for a modification based on substantial change in circumstance. Judges are most likely to consider the existing situation, and give it more weight if there is a long standing pattern supporting it. In other words – judges like to rule on what you DO and HAVE DONE – not what you say you are GOING TO do. Between now and then document EVERYTHING related to visitaion, custody and correspendence and communication between you and the ex. Not only total time – but caretaking – school meetings, day-care pickups and drop-offs, doctors’ visits, etc. I’d suggest you talk to a good lawyer now about the best way to go about doing this. Don’t use that idiot you used for the original case, though. Best – Fido

Response:

Rog, I’m snipping out what you wrote because I want to ask you a related, but only kinda, question….. ….a few weeks ago, you told us about a 15-year-old boy that you were representing.  His parents didn’t want him; in fact, his mother wanted him locked up if I remember, because it was cheaper for her that way. What has become of him?  Is he OK? Lauri in WA I like my email spamless

Response:

    Well, it does sorta explain why I never get bored there, but remember, my case was equally screwed up.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Speaking of which, I did a depo last week which some here may find amusing… not the subject matter, which is domestic violence, but the character of the testimony by the "wife’s" father: Husband and wife argue. He’s drunk as a skunk and out of control, so she calls her father.  Her father shows up and gets in husband’s face.  Husband pushes her father, who falls flat on his back with his arms and legs in the air, as he describes it, "Like a bug that’s been sprayed with Raid." Wife pulls the hubby off her father by his collar.  Husband gets up and runs out the front, then full-speed smack into a pine tree.  "It was like in the ‘Road Runner’ when the coyote realizes that he’s just been screwed.  He says, ‘Oh, Shit!’ and falls over flat.  Then he gets up and runs off like some squirrel.  You’d probably still get his DNA off that tree." BTW, he’s not really her husband.  "Why is that?"  Becuz he never divorced his 1st wife.  Lovely fellow.  [Roger] Well, gosh, Rog’, I’m beginning to understand why John finds Florida so darn charming!

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Speaking of which, I did a depo last week which some here may find amusing… not the subject matter, which is domestic violence, but the character of the testimony by the "wife’s" father: Husband and wife argue. He’s drunk as a skunk and out of control, so she calls her father.  Her father shows up and gets in husband’s face.  Husband pushes her father, who falls flat on his back with his arms and legs in the air, as he describes it, "Like a bug that’s been sprayed with Raid." Wife pulls the hubby off her father by his collar.  Husband gets up and runs out the front, then full-speed smack into a pine tree.  "It was like in the ‘Road Runner’ when the coyote realizes that he’s just been screwed.  He says, ‘Oh, Shit!’ and falls over flat.  Then he gets up and runs off like some squirrel.  You’d probably still get his DNA off that tree." BTW, he’s not really her husband.  "Why is that?"  Becuz he never divorced his 1st wife.  Lovely fellow.  [Roger]

Well, gosh, Rog’, I’m beginning to understand why John finds Florida so darn charming!

Response:

Fido’s replies were way better than mine (how’d that happen?). Because you are a CRIMINAL lawyer, Rog’, not a divorce lawyer.

Speaking of which, I did a depo last week which some here may find amusing… not the subject matter, which is domestic violence, but the character of the testimony by the "wife’s" father: Husband and wife argue. He’s drunk as a skunk and out of control, so she calls her father.  Her father shows up and gets in husband’s face.  Husband pushes her father, who falls flat on his back with his arms and legs in the air, as he describes it, "Like a bug that’s been sprayed with Raid." Wife pulls the hubby off her father by his collar.  Husband gets up and runs out the front, then full-speed smack into a pine tree.  "It was like in the ‘Road Runner’ when the coyote realizes that he’s just been screwed.  He says, ‘Oh, Shit!’ and falls over flat.  Then he gets up and runs off like some squirrel.  You’d probably still get his DNA off that tree." BTW, he’s not really her husband.  "Why is that?"  Becuz he never divorced his 1st wife.  Lovely fellow.  [Roger]

Response:

Fido’s replies were way better than mine (how’d that happen?).

Because you are a CRIMINAL lawyer, Rog’, not a divorce lawyer. I probably know more theoretical divorce law than you. Really, Rog’ you make your living dealing with thugs and punks, drunks, dopers, rapists and violent psychotics. Stick to it – because you could NEVER stomach what goes on in Family Court. Best – Fido

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I did have an attorney, but at the time of the divorce I was told I had nothing to stand on to get custody since the court would see the mother as the primary care taker.  I tried to explain that this would more than likely happen, but I was told the court can not make decisions on what could happen. I have not talked to the attorney since the divorce.  I am very glad the have the child 70% of the time, but she can actually just change that whenever she feels like if her situation changes. I was just wondering if anyone had been in a similar situation, and what the following steps would be to change things. Thanks I got divorced last year and am the NCP, paying the 20%, but i have posesion of the child 70% of the time. Is there a way to change custody.  I don’t want any support, but do feel like I should pay if child is with me most of the time. How long most one wait before trying to do something about it. Thanks You are the NCP, but you have the kids 70% of the time? How did that happen? Did you have an attorney? What does the attorney say about this situation now? Best -Fido

Boy, your lawyer turned out to be a useless piece of dreck, didn’t he. Post his name and phone number here. Anyway, courts are reluctant to revisit brand new decisions, but that may vary due to the different court systems. And, I suspect that you feel that if you petitioned the court now your ex may fight the change by refusing your extended visitation.   One strategy I have seen offered in these cases is to let the situation go as it is for a year, document the visitation time, THEN go in for a modification based on substantial change in circumstance. Judges are most likely to consider the existing situation, and give it more weight if there is a long standing pattern supporting it. In other words – judges like to rule on what you DO and HAVE DONE – not what you say you are GOING TO do. Between now and then document EVERYTHING related to visitaion, custody and correspendence and communication between you and the ex. Not only total time – but caretaking – school meetings, day-care pickups and drop-offs, doctors’ visits, etc. I’d suggest you talk to a good lawyer now about the best way to go about doing this. Don’t use that idiot you used for the original case, though. Best – Fido

Response:

I got divorced last year and am the NCP, paying the 20%, but i have posesion of the child 70% of the time.  Is there a way to change custody.  I don’t want any support, but do[n't] feel like I should pay if child is with me most of the time. How long most one wait before trying to do something about it. As long as it takes for you to hire a lawyer and tell him to do something about it, unless you know how to D-I-Y, in which case… As long as it takes for you to file a pleading, serve the ex and set a hearing.  BTW, you may need to prove up your claim of possession.  [Rog']

Unless the visiation schedule was in place at the time the custodial determination and child support were set (stranger things have happened) in which case he could only get a change if he could show "substantial change in circumstance" or 3 years had gone by, which is the typical time required for a "3 year review" of child support.

Response:

I got divorced last year and am the NCP, paying the 20%, but i have posesion of the child 70% of the time. Is there a way to change custody.  I don’t want any support, but do feel like I should pay if child is with me most of the time.

Keep a log of when the kids are with you as opposed to when the kids are with her.  It may or may not help, but it can’t hurt. — Jealousy is simply and clearly the fear that you do not have value. Jealousy scans for evidence to prove the point – that others will be preferred and rewarded more than you. ~ Jennifer James

Response:

I did have an attorney, but at the time of the divorce I was told I had nothing to stand on to get custody since the court would see the mother as the primary care taker.  I tried to explain that this would more than likely happen, but I was told the court can not make decisions on what could happen. I have not talked to the attorney since the divorce.  I am very glad the have the child 70% of the time, but she can actually just change that whenever she feels like if her situation changes. I was just wondering if anyone had been in a similar situation, and what the following steps would be to change things. Thanks

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I got divorced last year and am the NCP, paying the 20%, but i have posesion of the child 70% of the time. Is there a way to change custody.  I don’t want any support, but do feel like I should pay if child is with me most of the time. How long most one wait before trying to do something about it. Thanks You are the NCP, but you have the kids 70% of the time? How did that happen? Did you have an attorney? What does the attorney say about this situation now? Best -Fido

Response:

I got divorced last year and am the NCP, paying the 20%, but i have posesion of the child 70% of the time. Is there a way to change custody.  I don’t want any support, but do feel like I should pay if child is with me most of the time. How long most one wait before trying to do something about it. Thanks

You are the NCP, but you have the kids 70% of the time? How did that happen? Did you have an attorney? What does the attorney say about this situation now? Best -Fido

Response:

I got divorced last year and am the NCP, paying the 20%, but i have posesion of the child 70% of the time.  Is there a way to change custody.  I don’t want any support, but do[n't] feel like I should pay if child is with me most of the time. How long most one wait before trying to do something about it.

As long as it takes for you to hire a lawyer and tell him to do something about it, unless you know how to D-I-Y, in which case… As long as it takes for you to file a pleading, serve the ex and set a hearing.  BTW, you may need to prove up your claim of possession.  [Rog']

Response:

I got divorced last year and am the NCP, paying the 20%, but i have posesion of the child 70% of the time. Is there a way to change custody.  I don’t want any support, but do feel like I should pay if child is with me most of the time. How long most one wait before trying to do something about it. Thanks

Response:

Adultery … I posted earlier….Do any of those relationships last?

Question:

–

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Thanks pam, I just wanted to purge my soul… maybe i sounded pathettic, Ok no more from me. I was sounding like a broken record. John The best revenge or option is to just  move on and put it behind me, live well and take care of me. John …. I think Johni just needs to tell his story, and to have someone hear it. We all need that at times. Sometimes we need to tell it and tell it and tell it.  It’s cathartic. Best to you Johni, Pamela

  Johni,    I do not doubt that people sometimes use ASD like they would their personal journal.  A person does not censor or think through the things he writes in the journal as it is being written.  Whatever is inside just pours out and finds it’s physical expression on the page.  Or on ASD.  Which anyone can read, at any time, and is archived on Google.   Perhaps, the reason people do this is because it fufills at least two needs of the injured person; to purge and to be heard.   Take care, Johni, Pamela

Response:

well said Brad, along with everyone else, You are right, I guess it doesn’t matter anymore if it works or not for her , it’s past. Well once I get past the shocked stage, I will try and do just that. . Move On. I wish i could talk to her, no wait, I take that back,  I don’t really have any desire to talk to her at all at this point..  I cannot trust her and i have been told so many lies I don’t feel it is worth it. there are other things she lied about and I just can’t   trust her.  thanks, John

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi I have posted on this recently and below is my post from just last week.. I am finding out newer revelations everyday. I think my stbx is in for a big shock in short time. The clown she left with has a judgment against him with the IRS (he is a carpenter and only claimed 5 grand for the year as income) (well it finally caught up with him due to  a customer of his and this guy needed a receipt)  and he has to get a lawyer for that and for a divorce lawyer. I do get down, sometimes very very  down…. but not suicidal like I was. I found out more shocking revelations . I am a half assed Catholic, but my wife  decided she is a spiritualist soon after we were married . The catholic church discriminates against women she said. Anyway, she is parading her affair around in this so called church with her new live in partner. no shame or morals.. That in itself is bizarre, because it goes against everything that any major  religion teaches.She is fucked up, totally, I think this guy did me a grand favor. Years from now this probably won’t bother me anymore. Also, she is going crazy because now I refuse to talk to her and tell her what is going on with the divorce, I refuse to speak to her, she no longer is worthy of my words to her. There are more revelations about this guy that I learned from his wife and if I posted them here, you would think it was bullshit and I was a troll . I mean they are shocking to me. Oh what the hell…to write is therapeutic. The guy likes to sit naked and meditate for hours nude in the dark on the living room couch,  he wears women’s underwear and paints his toenails to match his moods.( that started  innocent enough, he had no underwear, so he decided to wear his wife’s black ones but moved to lacey flowery ones) And she found size 12 red woman’s pumps in the closet as she was moving his stuff out.. my wife doesn’t wear size 12! I guess there was a period where she asked him what the hell he was doing and who are you? He moved out for awhile, came back saying he had to find himself and they threw all the woman’s shit out ,but months later he did it again she said. This is what she left me for!!!! I mean this is so bizarre, you must wonder what I am like….. I am boring in my normality… I like to fish,  read , camp, do guy things, travel , museums, movies, crosswords etc..etc…. I just know he is blowing smoke up my wife’s ass about their grand plans… but according to his wife, she tells me she will be greatly disappointed. He never follows through on anything.   A carpenter that always rented etc… and said he would build a house, he promised that to his first and second wife… but they all rented. Now I see I did nothing really wrong in our relationship. I wasn’t perfect by far, but I was no monster, I didn’t cheat, drink, stay out at bars, beat my wife…etc… I worked overtime and tried to make something of a life together for us. I want to know if you people think that relationships like this last?. Ones that are built on a foundation of  lies and deceit.? I never really knew the definition of karma until this week… but it is a very  comforting thought. Somewhat similar to what comes around goes around. Please give me your input please.  Time to go, Thanks, John Old post below I just found out that the woman I used to respect , even thought she walked out on me is someone totally different from the woman I married.  My life feels over, the hurt and betrayal are crushing. It’s so disheartening to think of her as so evil as to what she is doing now and the person I though she was when I was with her. She was a good actress I suppose.  I thought she only left because of me but now I find out she is actually living with the man she denied  cheating with. She is much different in her actions and words that the woman I thought I knew. She is almost evil like in her actions. Lies, cheating, she stole stuff out of here. I found out she had an affair from the wife of the man she is cheating with, and it has been confirmed by others. This has been going on for months.  The lies and betrayal , the things I learned that I didn’t know before are absolutely shocking.  Sometimes the pain is too much and I feel like suicide. She cheated on me with a cheater, aren’t those things doomed to failure usually? How can something like that last? Please respond. The only good thing is I don’t have to blame myself anymore

I think Johni just needs to tell his story, and to have someone hear it. We all need that at times. Sometimes we need to tell it and tell it and tell it.  It’s cathartic. Best to you Johni, Pamela

Response:

Thanks pam, I just wanted to purge my soul… maybe i sounded pathettic, Ok no more from me. I was sounding like a broken record. John The best revenge or option is to just  move on and put it behind me, live well and take care of me. John ….

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi I have posted on this recently and below is my post from just last week.. I am finding out newer revelations everyday. I think my stbx is in for a big shock in short time. The clown she left with has a judgment against him with the IRS (he is a carpenter and only claimed 5 grand for the year as income) (well it finally caught up with him due to  a customer of his and this guy needed a receipt)  and he has to get a lawyer for that and for a divorce lawyer. I do get down, sometimes very very  down…. but not suicidal like I was. I found out more shocking revelations . I am a half assed Catholic, but my wife  decided she is a spiritualist soon after we were married . The catholic church discriminates against women she said. Anyway, she is parading her affair around in this so called church with her new live in partner. no shame or morals.. That in itself is bizarre, because it goes against everything that any major  religion teaches.She is fucked up, totally, I think this guy did me a grand favor. Years from now this probably won’t bother me anymore. Also, she is going crazy because now I refuse to talk to her and tell her what is going on with the divorce, I refuse to speak to her, she no longer is worthy of my words to her. There are more revelations about this guy that I learned from his wife and if I posted them here, you would think it was bullshit and I was a troll . I mean they are shocking to me. Oh what the hell…to write is therapeutic. The guy likes to sit naked and meditate for hours nude in the dark on the living room couch,  he wears women’s underwear and paints his toenails to match his moods.( that started  innocent enough, he had no underwear, so he decided to wear his wife’s black ones but moved to lacey flowery ones) And she found size 12 red woman’s pumps in the closet as she was moving his stuff out.. my wife doesn’t wear size 12! I guess there was a period where she asked him what the hell he was doing and who are you? He moved out for awhile, came back saying he had to find himself and they threw all the woman’s shit out ,but months later he did it again she said. This is what she left me for!!!! I mean this is so bizarre, you must wonder what I am like….. I am boring in my normality… I like to fish,  read , camp, do guy things, travel , museums, movies, crosswords etc..etc…. I just know he is blowing smoke up my wife’s ass about their grand plans… but according to his wife, she tells me she will be greatly disappointed. He never follows through on anything.   A carpenter that always rented etc… and said he would build a house, he promised that to his first and second wife… but they all rented. Now I see I did nothing really wrong in our relationship. I wasn’t perfect by far, but I was no monster, I didn’t cheat, drink, stay out at bars, beat my wife…etc… I worked overtime and tried to make something of a life together for us. I want to know if you people think that relationships like this last?. Ones that are built on a foundation of  lies and deceit.? I never really knew the definition of karma until this week… but it is a very  comforting thought. Somewhat similar to what comes around goes around. Please give me your input please.  Time to go, Thanks, John Old post below I just found out that the woman I used to respect , even thought she walked out on me is someone totally different from the woman I married.  My life feels over, the hurt and betrayal are crushing. It’s so disheartening to think of her as so evil as to what she is doing now and the person I though she was when I was with her. She was a good actress I suppose.  I thought she only left because of me but now I find out she is actually living with the man she denied  cheating with. She is much different in her actions and words that the woman I thought I knew. She is almost evil like in her actions. Lies, cheating, she stole stuff out of here. I found out she had an affair from the wife of the man she is cheating with, and it has been confirmed by others. This has been going on for months.  The lies and betrayal , the things I learned that I didn’t know before are absolutely shocking.  Sometimes the pain is too much and I feel like suicide. She cheated on me with a cheater, aren’t those things doomed to failure usually? How can something like that last? Please respond. The only good thing is I don’t have to blame myself anymore I think Johni just needs to tell his story, and to have someone hear it. We all need that at times. Sometimes we need to tell it and tell it and tell it.  It’s cathartic. Best to you Johni, Pamela

Response:

I want to know if you people think that relationships like this last?. Ones that are built on a foundation of  lies and deceit.?

Who cares?  Heck, they might stay together forever, what difference does it make?  She’s history.  Move on.

Response:

I want to know if you people think that relationships like this last?. Ones that are built on a foundation of  lies and deceit.? Who cares?  Heck, they might stay together forever, what difference does it make?  She’s history.  Move on.

Yes.

Response:

johni said… I do get down, sometimes very very  down…. but not suicidal like I was.

It’s normal to go through cycles of being down, so just accept it as that.  Ride out the down times and look forward to more and more good ones as time goes on. She is fucked up, totally, I think this guy did me a grand favor. Years from now this probably won’t bother me anymore.

That’s the attitude you need to seize on and stick with.  Years from now it won’t really bother you that much… maybe even sooner than you think. I mean this is so bizarre, you must wonder what I am like….. I am boring in my normality… I like to fish,  read , camp, do guy things, travel , museums, movies, crosswords etc..etc….

Wow, you’re really weird!  ;-) Now I see I did nothing really wrong in our relationship. I wasn’t perfect by far, but I was no monster, I didn’t cheat, drink, stay out at bars, beat my wife…etc… I worked overtime and tried to make something of a life together for us.

Be glad you’ve been able to realize that so quickly.  Now, armed with that valuable insight, try to move on and don’t look back. I want to know if you people think that relationships like this last?. Ones that are built on a foundation of  lies and deceit.? I never really knew the definition of karma until this week… but it is a very  comforting thought. Somewhat similar to what comes around goes around. Please give me your input please.

Do relationships like that last?  Usually not, but sometimes they manage to survive in their own weird way with lots of ups and downs. However, and this is really important, it doesn’t matter to you anymore.  You need to move your focus away from her and her new "relationship" because that’s her new life, not yours (be glad for that).   You’ve been handed a great opportunity to start a new chapter of your life.  You seem to be a nice normal guy, and that will take you far if you can shake off being preoccupied with what your stbx is doing or not doing.  Don’t think about or try to find out any more details about her train wreck of a life with the crossdressing Mr. Fluffy.  It simply doesn’t matter anymore. Consider yourself lucky – run like hell, and never look back. Casey

Response:

She is gone. Whether her relationship with him lasts or not is irrelevent to you and your life. Get on with your life. Let her have hers. You cannot control what she does so don’t waste your time worrying about her. Use your time for you.

I concur. OP:  It serves no purpose for you to care one bit what this woman does or who she is with.  She can be happy or unhappy, or out in la-la land… There is nothing to be done about it and it makes no difference.  As Denise says:  Try to focus on moving on  with your life.  Perhaps, one day, you’ll find someone else to care about, but do start to think about building a new life.  [R]

Response:

Hi I have posted on this recently and below is my post from just last week.. I am finding out newer revelations everyday. I think my stbx is in for a big shock in short time. The clown she left with has a judgment against him with the IRS (he is a carpenter and only claimed 5 grand for the year as income) (well it finally caught up with him due to  a customer of his and this guy needed a receipt)  and he has to get a lawyer for that and for a divorce lawyer. I do get down, sometimes very very  down…. but not suicidal like I was.

Just keep in mind that you will be hit again hard (probably suicidal hard). Just bear it and it will subside. Over time the frequency and intensity should taper off. Seek help if you need it. I found out more shocking revelations . I am a half assed Catholic, but my wife  decided she is a spiritualist soon after we were married . The catholic church discriminates against women she said. Anyway, she is parading her affair around in this so called church with her new live in partner. no shame or morals.. That in itself is bizarre, because it goes against everything that any major  religion teaches.She is fucked up, totally, I think this guy did me a grand favor. Years from now this probably won’t bother me anymore.

God bless those half-assed Catholics. (not a Catholic, myself) The end result is this: She doesn’t want to be held accountable for her actions. If she were held accountable to her actions then she couldn’t just do whatever she wanted. Now, conceptually, most people will have a problem with this. You have a personal problem with it because you’ve got a stake in her (referring to your marriage/love/concern/care – not wooden). You’re going to have to get past this. It doesn’t matter if she parades it around or gets her picture in the paper or on TV professing her love for him and her dislike of you. None of that changes the truth. Also, she is going crazy because now I refuse to talk to her and tell her what is going on with the divorce, I refuse to speak to her, she no longer is worthy of my words to her.

I suggest avoiding the ‘no-speaking to her’ *unless* it is because you cannot trust her. Don’t do it for ’she is not worthy’ reasons. That’s really just spite on your part and won’t help. If she can’t be trusted at all (to where you couldn’t sit down with her and agree on something that you could get a judge to sign off on without her lying about it later) then don’t speak. Otherwise you’ll be doing yourself a favor to be pleasant and cordial to her. I just know he is blowing smoke up my wife’s ass about their grand

plans… This is *the* thing I don’t get about these kinds of situations. People will happily buy off on the most ludicrous of notions if someone just tells them how great it is or will be. Doesn’t matter that it isn’t true. It just sounds good. (kind of a dreaming thing) drink, stay out at bars, beat my wife…etc… I worked overtime and tried to make something of a life together for us.

That’s likely to hurt you in court. I want to know if you people think that relationships like this last?. Ones that are built on a foundation of  lies and deceit.? I never really knew the definition of karma until this week… but it is a very  comforting thought. Somewhat similar to what comes around goes around. Please give me your input please.

A couple of things here: 1) It doesn’t matter if it will last a week or until one of them dies of old age. You’re done with her at this point and need not concern yourself with her. 2) It doesn’t matter what kind of relationship she has with him (based on lies/truth/dreams/etc.). Once again, you’re done. Don’t think about it. 3) Don’t concern yourself with Karma. Concern your self with being a better person and getting through this. You’re only interest in Karma seems to be from the revenge aspect of, "Whatever goes around comes around." That’s just another way of thinking, "She’ll get hers in the end." It doesn’t matter. That revenge and you waiting for it will not help you. If anything, you would consider being a full-assed Catholic and praying for God to help *both* (all, if you include her new boyfriend) of you through this. This is just one of those things that you’ll have to leave to God. I must have deleted the section but I remember you writing (paraphrase): "Hey, I was just normal-guy who went to work and took care of the family. I didn’t cheat, drink, beat, or otherwise. I’m wasn’t perfect but this one isn’t my fault." If all that is true then, in my opinion, that is the *best* realization that you could have. (BTW – no need to post the old posts below your follow up – it’s in the threads and can be found) Have a great day! Brad

Response:

She is gone. Whether her relationship with him lasts or not is irrelevent to you and your life. Get on with your life. Let her have hers. You cannot control what she does so don’t waste your time worrying about her. Use your time for you. Denise

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi I have posted on this recently and below is my post from just last week.. I am finding out newer revelations everyday. I think my stbx is in for a big shock in short time. The clown she left with has a judgment against him with the IRS (he is a carpenter and only claimed 5 grand for the year as income) (well it finally caught up with him due to  a customer of his and this guy needed a receipt)  and he has to get a lawyer for that and for a divorce lawyer. I do get down, sometimes very very  down…. but not suicidal like I was. I found out more shocking revelations . I am a half assed Catholic, but my wife  decided she is a spiritualist soon after we were married . The catholic church discriminates against women she said. Anyway, she is parading her affair around in this so called church with her new live in partner. no shame or morals.. That in itself is bizarre, because it goes against everything that any major  religion teaches.She is fucked up, totally, I think this guy did me a grand favor. Years from now this probably won’t bother me anymore. Also, she is going crazy because now I refuse to talk to her and tell her what is going on with the divorce, I refuse to speak to her, she no longer is worthy of my words to her. There are more revelations about this guy that I learned from his wife and if I posted them here, you would think it was bullshit and I was a troll . I mean they are shocking to me. Oh what the hell…to write is therapeutic. The guy likes to sit naked and meditate for hours nude in the dark on the living room couch,  he wears women’s underwear and paints his toenails to match his moods.( that started  innocent enough, he had no underwear, so he decided to wear his wife’s black ones but moved to lacey flowery ones) And she found size 12 red woman’s pumps in the closet as she was moving his stuff out.. my wife doesn’t wear size 12! I guess there was a period where she asked him what the hell he was doing and who are you? He moved out for awhile, came back saying he had to find himself and they threw all the woman’s shit out ,but months later he did it again she said. This is what she left me for!!!! I mean this is so bizarre, you must wonder what I am like….. I am boring in my normality… I like to fish,  read , camp, do guy things, travel , museums, movies, crosswords etc..etc…. I just know he is blowing smoke up my wife’s ass about their grand plans… but according to his wife, she tells me she will be greatly disappointed. He never follows through on anything.   A carpenter that always rented etc… and said he would build a house, he promised that to his first and second wife… but they all rented. Now I see I did nothing really wrong in our relationship. I wasn’t perfect by far, but I was no monster, I didn’t cheat, drink, stay out at bars, beat my wife…etc… I worked overtime and tried to make something of a life together for us. I want to know if you people think that relationships like this last?. Ones that are built on a foundation of  lies and deceit.? I never really knew the definition of karma until this week… but it is a very  comforting thought. Somewhat similar to what comes around goes around. Please give me your input please.  Time to go, Thanks, John Old post below I just found out that the woman I used to respect , even thought she walked out on me is someone totally different from the woman I married.  My life feels over, the hurt and betrayal are crushing. It’s so disheartening to think of her as so evil as to what she is doing now and the person I though she was when I was with her. She was a good actress I suppose.  I thought she only left because of me but now I find out she is actually living with the man she denied  cheating with. She is much different in her actions and words that the woman I thought I knew. She is almost evil like in her actions. Lies, cheating, she stole stuff out of here. I found out she had an affair from the wife of the man she is cheating with, and it has been confirmed by others. This has been going on for months. The lies and betrayal , the things I learned that I didn’t know before are absolutely shocking.  Sometimes the pain is too much and I feel like suicide. She cheated on me with a cheater, aren’t those things doomed to failure usually? How can something like that last? Please respond. The only good thing is I don’t have to blame myself anymore

Response:

Hi I have posted on this recently and below is my post from just last week.. I am finding out newer revelations everyday. I think my stbx is in for a big shock in short time. The clown she left with has a judgment against him with the IRS (he is a carpenter and only claimed 5 grand for the year as income) (well it finally caught up with him due to  a customer of his and this guy needed a receipt)  and he has to get a lawyer for that and for a divorce lawyer. I do get down, sometimes very very  down…. but not suicidal like I was. I found out more shocking revelations . I am a half assed Catholic, but my wife  decided she is a spiritualist soon after we were married . The catholic church discriminates against women she said. Anyway, she is parading her affair around in this so called church with her new live in partner. no shame or morals.. That in itself is bizarre, because it goes against everything that any major  religion teaches.She is fucked up, totally, I think this guy did me a grand favor. Years from now this probably won’t bother me anymore. Also, she is going crazy because now I refuse to talk to her and tell her what is going on with the divorce, I refuse to speak to her, she no longer is worthy of my words to her. There are more revelations about this guy that I learned from his wife and if I posted them here, you would think it was bullshit and I was a troll . I mean they are shocking to me. Oh what the hell…to write is therapeutic. The guy likes to sit naked and meditate for hours nude in the dark on the living room couch,  he wears women’s underwear and paints his toenails to match his moods.( that started  innocent enough, he had no underwear, so he decided to wear his wife’s black ones but moved to lacey flowery ones) And she found size 12 red woman’s pumps in the closet as she was moving his stuff out.. my wife doesn’t wear size 12! I guess there was a period where she asked him what the hell he was doing and who are you? He moved out for awhile, came back saying he had to find himself and they threw all the woman’s shit out ,but months later he did it again she said. This is what she left me for!!!! I mean this is so bizarre, you must wonder what I am like….. I am boring in my normality… I like to fish,  read , camp, do guy things, travel , museums, movies, crosswords etc..etc…. I just know he is blowing smoke up my wife’s ass about their grand  plans… but according to his wife, she tells me she will be greatly disappointed. He never follows through on anything.   A carpenter that always rented etc… and said he would build a house, he promised that to his first and second wife… but they all rented. Now I see I did nothing really wrong in our relationship. I wasn’t perfect by far, but I was no monster, I didn’t cheat, drink, stay out at bars, beat my wife…etc… I worked overtime and tried to make something of a life together for us. I want to know if you people think that relationships like this last?. Ones that are built on a foundation of  lies and deceit.? I never really knew the definition of karma until this week… but it is a very  comforting thought. Somewhat similar to what comes around goes around. Please give me your input please.  Time to go, Thanks, John Old post below I just found out that the woman I used to respect , even thought she walked out on me is someone totally different from the woman I married.  My life feels over, the hurt and betrayal are crushing. It’s so disheartening to think of her as so evil as to what she is doing now and the person I though she was when I was with her. She was a good actress I suppose.  I thought she only left because of me but now I find out she is actually living with the man she denied  cheating with. She is much different in her actions and words that the woman I thought I knew. She is almost evil like in her actions. Lies, cheating, she stole stuff out of here. I found out she had an affair from the wife of the man she is cheating with, and it has been confirmed by others. This has been going on for months.  The lies and betrayal , the things I learned that I didn’t know before are absolutely shocking.  Sometimes the pain is too much and I feel like suicide. She cheated on me with a cheater, aren’t those things doomed to failure usually? How can something like that last? Please respond. The only good thing is I don’t have to blame myself anymore

Response:

how to get her to pack her shit and leave

Question:

John Marriage is a contract, true.

ROFL …sorry, but that one really did make me fall off my chair Eryk — Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).

Response:

John Marriage is a contract, true. ROFL …sorry, but that one really did make me fall off my chair

It’s true.  As far as the state is concerned, it’s a contract, the provisions of which are not made known to you unless and until you choose to divorce.  Then, and only then, do you find out that what you thought was your property has morphed into joint property by application of the divorce laws. Ignore this fact at your peril. — "Rudeness is the weak man’s imitation of strength"

Response:

Tim, Tim, Tim … Agenda, no.  Awareness, yes … all to late for the participants who read this group.

I stand by my characterization.  It’s an agenda. Over time, people go from cordially working out differences to greed.

*Some* people do so.  Others do not do so.   Your generalization is unwarranted and inaccurate.  Its only value is to demonstrate the depths of your bitterness, thus providing some clarity. Looks as if she stands to get substantially less in running the numbers against multiple sources.  So, she’s thrashing legally.  It’s comical.  And yet, I’m thrashing emotionally because I want free of the chains that bind me to such a louse.

I can relate to that! As I said, marriage (and the eventual divorce) …

Whoa! "The eventual divorce"?  Even given that half of marriages fail, assuming that divorce is predestined is *way* over the top. Marriage is a contract, true.  That said, why is it STBX is entitled to money?

Because that’s what the law says. — where’s my entitlement to housework, childcare, cooking, grocery shopping? – those are things I gladly do myself now (and had to in the marriage), however, one would logically agree that what each party orginally offered in the marriage should be on the table vs. just the cash input.

Fair enough.  So let’s say that she puts the fair market value of housework, childcare, cooking, grocery shopping, etc. on the table. Should she not get out at least what she put in? My issue is the process.  Way too lengthy.

Depends.  Took us 14 months from effective date of separation to issuance of divorce judgement. I know/knew nothing of your MSA.

And I don’t know what is an MSA. For her, It’s not about moving on, it’s about getting as much as possible.  True, all women are not like this.  That said, it’s cheaper to date the next one, have a comittment & enjoy sleepovers than to ever get married again.  Sad but true.

There is something to be said for that approach.  There’s a lot to be said for prenuptual agreements, too. Big business opportunity — pre-nups that can’t be thrown out by the court!!!!  That takes the money out of the equation and we can all get married for the "love".  Watch marriage drop by 25% when that bizness starts up!!!

My understanding to doing that is to not hide anything and to keep the agreement current.  Neglect to amend to include the new car or the 401K from the new job and everything’s up for grabs. — "Rudeness is the weak man’s imitation of strength"

Response:

the subject says it all. right now after her stealing my pain meds I’m ready for her to just LEAVE. any suggestions on how to get her to just pack her bags, take HER kids (not mine) and just LEAVE. we have no kids together. I bought the house before we were married and it’s in my name. the state is mississippi. —             === Derringer Side Plates <===<<< http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3665235701

Response:

the subject says it all.

Pack her stuff up, throw it on the front lawn, change the locks. Geesh, you’re making it more difficult than it has to be…

Response:

the subject says it all. right now after her stealing my pain meds I’m ready for her to just LEAVE. any suggestions on how to get her to just pack her bags, take HER kids (not mine) and just LEAVE. we have no kids together. I bought the house before we were married and it’s in my name. the state is mississippi.

That you hold legal title is only part of the story.  You can lock her out, but until you get a court order, she has the right (in Florida) to break back in… its called a marital residence…  [R]

Response:

the subject says it all. right now after her stealing my pain meds I’m ready for her to just LEAVE. any suggestions on how to get her to just pack her bags, take HER kids (not mine) and just LEAVE. we have no kids together. I bought the house before we were married and it’s in my name. the state is mississippi.

Be very careful.  When it comes to the marital home, the norm is for it to have morphed into marital property, in which case you *cannot* throw her out. You need to consult with a divorce lawyer forthwith. — "Rudeness is the weak man’s imitation of strength"

Response:

Get an order of protection or whatever it is called in your state which will prevent her from getting back into you house.  Just tell the cops she took a swing at you.  Lie just like woman do.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – the subject says it all. right now after her stealing my pain meds I’m ready for her to just LEAVE. any suggestions on how to get her to just pack her bags, take HER kids (not mine) and just LEAVE. we have no kids together. I bought the house before we were married and it’s in my name. the state is mississippi. That you hold legal title is only part of the story.  You can lock her out, but until you get a court order, she has the right (in Florida) to break back in… its called a marital residence…  [R]

Response:

the subject says it all. right now after her stealing my pain meds I’m ready for her to just LEAVE. any suggestions on how to get her to just pack her bags, take HER kids (not mine) and just LEAVE. we have no kids together. I bought the house before we were married and it’s in my name. the state is mississippi.

I assume you have told her than in no uncertain terms, she needs to make other living arrangements and she’s not acting on your request. I also assume she has to leave the home at some point. Why not simply set her things (all of them) on the steps, change the locks and from a slightly open window slip her a enevlope containg enough for 2 nights at a motel or gas money to drive to her family. "to mold a new reality, closer to the heart" RUSH

Response:

Tim, Tim, Tim … Agenda, no.  Awareness, yes … all to late for the participants who read this group. Cleaners, not yet.  I offered close to 60% of my income in the MSA I offered … alimony, CS, schooling … she wanted more.  Over time, people go from cordially working out differences to greed.  Looks as if she stands to get substantially less in running the numbers against multiple sources.  So, she’s thrashing legally.  It’s comical.  And yet, I’m thrashing emotionally because I want free of the chains that bind me to such a louse. As I said, marriage (and the eventual divorce) seem to be the "equalizer" for persons wishing to climb the social ladder.  It is a dieing institution – morally, socially & ethically, it’s the right thing to do.  On the legal end, not.  Not unless you marry a spouse with comparable or greater income to your own.  Sorry, the truth hurts thanks to the liberal legal system. Marriage is a contract, true.  That said, why is it STBX is entitled to money? — where’s my entitlement to housework, childcare, cooking, grocery shopping? – those are things I gladly do myself now (and had to in the marriage), however, one would logically agree that what each party orginally offered in the marriage should be on the table vs. just the cash input. My issue is the process.  Way too lengthy.  Yes, attorneys step in and tell parties not to speak … wouldn’t want any agreements to come to fruition. For us, she’s about greed at this point.  The grass wasn’t greener, she got dumped, now angling for as much moola as possible.  Isn’t that special. Parental loan, more credit card debt + I fronted bucks to make sure the MSA could be worked (what a nice guy (sucker) I was).  Been going on for over a year.  Everyone should want their lives back at some point – at least those who have already moved on in many ways. I know/knew nothing of your MSA.  Glad you could get it done.  I have a deadbeat spouse who quotes all the trash about "lifestyle, half, entitlement, CP, half, pension, SS, etc., half".  For her, It’s not about moving on, it’s about getting as much as possible.  True, all women are not like this.  That said, it’s cheaper to date the next one, have a comittment & enjoy sleepovers than to ever get married again.  Sad but true. So … unless your sig. other makes more than you, don’t talk about the "M" word. Big business opportunity — pre-nups that can’t be thrown out by the court!!!!  That takes the money out of the equation and we can all get married for the "love".  Watch marriage drop by 25% when that bizness starts up!!!

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – The bigger problem here is …. You mean the agenda that you are pushing, don’t you. (That’s Okay, you’re entitled to vent, just like the rest of us.  Just be up-front about it.) … why is marriage so screwed up that it comes to this. Do you mean marriage as in the institution, or marriage as in the laws? Why is it people can’t move on with there pathetic lives and leave each other alone. Because they don’t want to, or because they let the lawyers think for them.  Acrimony is not a requirement of divorce. Why is marriage such a crock. My, such bitterness, so much so that you asked the wrong question. Your beef isn’t with marriage, it’s with divorce, specifically, your belief that you were taken to the cleaners. Why are people so stupid to tie the noose in the first place only to have money grubbing lawyers and judges dictate what’s "fair and equitable". Lawyers cannot dictate to their clients.  In fact, it’s the other way around. Judges dictate as the law requires when the parties cannot agree on what is fair and equitable.  Sometimes there are legitimate issues that require arbitration in the form of a judicial order, but frequently the judge must rule because the parties involved are acting like jerks. And for the record, no lawyer or judge dictated to us what was fair and equitable.  We decided that for ourselves.  I’m told by those who reviewed it that our separation agreement, which I drafted, was quite well done.  And as far as I know, the only thing that any lawyer got to grub was … grub, as in a couple of dinners. The key here is to never get married. The key here is knowing that marrriage is a contractual relationship, a business partnership, if you will, and governing yourself accordingly. — "Rudeness is the weak man’s imitation of strength"

Response:

The bigger problem here is ….

You mean the agenda that you are pushing, don’t you.   (That’s Okay, you’re entitled to vent, just like the rest of us.  Just be up-front about it.) … why is marriage so screwed up that it comes to this.

Do you mean marriage as in the institution, or marriage as in the laws? Why is it people can’t move on with there pathetic lives and leave each other alone.

Because they don’t want to, or because they let the lawyers think for them.  Acrimony is not a requirement of divorce. Why is marriage such a crock.

My, such bitterness, so much so that you asked the wrong question.   Your beef isn’t with marriage, it’s with divorce, specifically, your belief that you were taken to the cleaners. Why are people so stupid to tie the noose in the first place only to have money grubbing lawyers and judges dictate what’s "fair and equitable".

Lawyers cannot dictate to their clients.  In fact, it’s the other way around. Judges dictate as the law requires when the parties cannot agree on what is fair and equitable.  Sometimes there are legitimate issues that require arbitration in the form of a judicial order, but frequently the judge must rule because the parties involved are acting like jerks. And for the record, no lawyer or judge dictated to us what was fair and equitable.  We decided that for ourselves.  I’m told by those who reviewed it that our separation agreement, which I drafted, was quite well done.  And as far as I know, the only thing that any lawyer got to grub was … grub, as in a couple of dinners. The key here is to never get married.

The key here is knowing that marrriage is a contractual relationship, a business partnership, if you will, and governing yourself accordingly.   — "Rudeness is the weak man’s imitation of strength"

Response:

The bigger problem here is …. why is marriage so screwed up that it comes to this.  Why is it people can’t move on with there pathetic lives and leave each other alone.  Why is marriage such a crock.  Why are people so stupid to tie the noose in the first place only to have money grubbing lawyers and judges dictate what’s "fair and equitable". The key here is to never get married.  You tie to noose with good intentions, smiles, a kiss, cake & a night of passion  … you cut the cord dumping half your money.  Mmmmm … something’s wrong with this picture. People making less money than you will end up gaining income based on your hard work.  Blatant socialism.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – the subject says it all. right now after her stealing my pain meds I’m ready for her to just LEAVE. any suggestions on how to get her to just pack her bags, take HER kids (not mine) and just LEAVE. we have no kids together. I bought the house before we were married and it’s in my name. the state is mississippi. Be very careful.  When it comes to the marital home, the norm is for it to have morphed into marital property, in which case you *cannot* throw her out. You need to consult with a divorce lawyer forthwith. — "Rudeness is the weak man’s imitation of strength"

Response:

Seeker: I'm throwing down the guanlet

Question:

"Bill in Co." <LostInT…@earthlink.net> wrote in message news:abwUb.12798$F23.3159@newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.net… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Tony Miller wrote: > > On 4 Feb 2004 19:35:59 -0800, Ralph DuBose > > <rdub…@pdq.net> wrote: > >> Tony Miller <t…@cigardiary.com> wrote in message > >> <news:slrnc22hro.70t.tony@home.cigardiary.com>… > >>> On Wed, 4 Feb 2004 10:09:28 -0600, Seeker > >>> <tedds212removet…@yahoo.com> wrote: > >>>> … I’m waiting for you to post this a third time; then I’ll know you mean > >>>> it. (-: > >>>> (quoth the Bellman, what I say three times is true…) > >>>> An interesting challenge.  What you are asking is that somehow I get my > >>>> wife to change enough so that she enjoys kissing.   I’m not sure I can > >>>> accept that challenge, because that is not something that is in my power > >>>> to bring about on any kind of timetable, if at all. > >>> No, it’s for you to change so that you live and accept your wife the way > >>> she is. > >>    This sounds completely bogus to me. You have not specified any > >> limits. > >> Until you explain what the limits of toleration are in a marriage, > >> your statement is meaningless. > >>    For example, if a husband did little work and what money he did > >> earn he gave to various girlfriends would you tell the wife to "accept > >> him the way he is?" > > No, she should divorce him and move on.  Not pretend to want to ‘work it > > out’ peppered with stuff that comes out of psychology texts. > > I can’t explain what the ‘limits of toleration’ are to Ted.  He has to > > figure them out himself.  But if he hasn’t reached his limits he should > > deal, since it’s obvious his wife isn’t changing any time soon. > >>>> I’ll take it under advisement — what might you suggest as either ways to > >>>> bring it about (that haven’t already been suggested) *or* an alternative? > >>> Deal with your disappointments and love your wife. > >>    Same problem. Are you saying a person gives up all personal claims > >> on dignity and respect when entering marriage? That their spouse has a > >> blank check for selfish behaviour at your expense? Because that is > >> what you imply. > > No, you find your limits as to what you can deal with, and deal with it. > > When you have reached the end of your limit you get out. > > I haven’t heard anything egregious from Ted that his wife has done.  She > > seems like a bit of a cold fish.  She also doesn’t seem to have become a > > cold fish recently (I could be wrong and I’m sure Ted will set me to > > rights if I made a mistake).  If you don’t like stripes, don’t marry a > > zebra. > Ted has already said "divorce is not an option".   (Of course, no explanation > has been given).   SO – if that is the case, there is no resolution, and this > will continue, ad infinitem.   N’est pas?    Am I missing something?

Yes. Add the word "now" to your sentence.

Response:

On Thu, 5 Feb 2004 12:34:02 -0600, Seeker – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -<tedds212removet…@yahoo.com> wrote: > "Doug Anderson" <ethelthe…@yahoo.com> wrote in message > news:KqvUb.99278$U%5.489770@attbi_s03… >> Tracey <rbranch…@aol.com> writes: >> > Tony wrote: >> >  >If you don’t like stripes, don’t marry a zebra. >> > And I’ll add: If you marry a zebra, 20 years down >> > the road, >> Or even 37 (or whatever it is) >> > it’s futile to expect the zebra to turn >> > into a Clydesdale. > The analogy our therapist has used is that she’s a clam and I’m a bunny > rabbit. > Assuming he’s legitimate (which I believe he is) and not just taking our > money to replenish his bank account he does seem to believe there’s good > reason for our spending $2,000 a year to continue to see him.  While that’s > not my only reason for continuing to go, I have to believe him.

That’s like that old joke. Q: How many psychologists does it take to change a light bulb? A: One, but the light bulb has got to *want* to change. If you and your wife are unwilling ot unable to change, the $2000 would be better spent on a second honeymoon cruise.  (Or a divorce lawyer). > Ted

-Tony — "If the grass appears to be greener on the other side of the fence, it’s time to fertilize your lawn!" Want to jump start your marriage?  Consider a Marriage Encounter weekend. Check out http://www.wwme.org for more information.

Response:

On Thu, 05 Feb 2004 18:45:26 GMT, Bill in Co. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -<LostInT…@earthlink.net> wrote: > Tony Miller wrote: >> On 4 Feb 2004 19:35:59 -0800, Ralph DuBose >> <rdub…@pdq.net> wrote: >>> Tony Miller <t…@cigardiary.com> wrote in message >>> <news:slrnc22hro.70t.tony@home.cigardiary.com>… >>>> On Wed, 4 Feb 2004 10:09:28 -0600, Seeker >>>> <tedds212removet…@yahoo.com> wrote: >>>>> … I’m waiting for you to post this a third time; then I’ll know you mean >>>>> it. (-: >>>>> (quoth the Bellman, what I say three times is true…) >>>>> An interesting challenge.  What you are asking is that somehow I get my >>>>> wife to change enough so that she enjoys kissing.   I’m not sure I can >>>>> accept that challenge, because that is not something that is in my power >>>>> to bring about on any kind of timetable, if at all. >>>> No, it’s for you to change so that you live and accept your wife the way >>>> she is. >>>    This sounds completely bogus to me. You have not specified any >>> limits. >>> Until you explain what the limits of toleration are in a marriage, >>> your statement is meaningless. >>>    For example, if a husband did little work and what money he did >>> earn he gave to various girlfriends would you tell the wife to "accept >>> him the way he is?" >> No, she should divorce him and move on.  Not pretend to want to ‘work it >> out’ peppered with stuff that comes out of psychology texts. >> I can’t explain what the ‘limits of toleration’ are to Ted.  He has to >> figure them out himself.  But if he hasn’t reached his limits he should >> deal, since it’s obvious his wife isn’t changing any time soon. >>>>> I’ll take it under advisement — what might you suggest as either ways to >>>>> bring it about (that haven’t already been suggested) *or* an alternative? >>>> Deal with your disappointments and love your wife. >>>    Same problem. Are you saying a person gives up all personal claims >>> on dignity and respect when entering marriage? That their spouse has a >>> blank check for selfish behaviour at your expense? Because that is >>> what you imply. >> No, you find your limits as to what you can deal with, and deal with it. >> When you have reached the end of your limit you get out. >> I haven’t heard anything egregious from Ted that his wife has done.  She >> seems like a bit of a cold fish.  She also doesn’t seem to have become a >> cold fish recently (I could be wrong and I’m sure Ted will set me to >> rights if I made a mistake).  If you don’t like stripes, don’t marry a >> zebra. > Ted has already said "divorce is not an option".   (Of course, no explanation > has been given).   SO – if that is the case, there is no resolution, and this > will continue, ad infinitem.   N’est pas?    Am I missing something?

That does cut the options down.  He’s left with one.  "Deal with it". -Tony — "If the grass appears to be greener on the other side of the fence, it’s time to fertilize your lawn!" Want to jump start your marriage?  Consider a Marriage Encounter weekend. Check out http://www.wwme.org for more information.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Tony Miller wrote: > On Thu, 05 Feb 2004 18:45:26 GMT, Bill in Co. > <LostInT…@earthlink.net> wrote: >> Tony Miller wrote: >>> On 4 Feb 2004 19:35:59 -0800, Ralph DuBose >>> <rdub…@pdq.net> wrote: >>>> Tony Miller <t…@cigardiary.com> wrote in message >>>> <news:slrnc22hro.70t.tony@home.cigardiary.com>… >>>>> On Wed, 4 Feb 2004 10:09:28 -0600, Seeker >>>>> <tedds212removet…@yahoo.com> wrote: >>>>>> … I’m waiting for you to post this a third time; then I’ll know you >>>>>> mean it. (-: >>>>>> (quoth the Bellman, what I say three times is true…) >>>>>> An interesting challenge.  What you are asking is that somehow I get my >>>>>> wife to change enough so that she enjoys kissing.   I’m not sure I can >>>>>> accept that challenge, because that is not something that is in my power >>>>>> to bring about on any kind of timetable, if at all. >>>>> No, it’s for you to change so that you live and accept your wife the way >>>>> she is. >>>>    This sounds completely bogus to me. You have not specified any >>>> limits. >>>> Until you explain what the limits of toleration are in a marriage, >>>> your statement is meaningless. >>>>    For example, if a husband did little work and what money he did >>>> earn he gave to various girlfriends would you tell the wife to "accept >>>> him the way he is?" >>> No, she should divorce him and move on.  Not pretend to want to ‘work it >>> out’ peppered with stuff that comes out of psychology texts. >>> I can’t explain what the ‘limits of toleration’ are to Ted.  He has to >>> figure them out himself.  But if he hasn’t reached his limits he should >>> deal, since it’s obvious his wife isn’t changing any time soon. >>>>>> I’ll take it under advisement — what might you suggest as either ways to >>>>>> bring it about (that haven’t already been suggested) *or* an alternative? >>>>> Deal with your disappointments and love your wife. >>>>    Same problem. Are you saying a person gives up all personal claims >>>> on dignity and respect when entering marriage? That their spouse has a >>>> blank check for selfish behaviour at your expense? Because that is >>>> what you imply. >>> No, you find your limits as to what you can deal with, and deal with it. >>> When you have reached the end of your limit you get out. >>> I haven’t heard anything egregious from Ted that his wife has done.  She >>> seems like a bit of a cold fish.  She also doesn’t seem to have become a >>> cold fish recently (I could be wrong and I’m sure Ted will set me to >>> rights if I made a mistake).  If you don’t like stripes, don’t marry a >>> zebra. >> Ted has already said "divorce is not an option".   (Of course, no explanation >> has been given).   SO – if that is the case, there is no resolution, and this >> will continue, ad infinitem.   N’est pas?    Am I missing something? > That does cut the options down.  He’s left with one.  "Deal with it".

I think THIS is Ted’s way of dealing with it.   So maybe consider it "dealt with"…?

Response:

"Seeker" <tedds212removet…@yahoo.com> wrote in message

news:bvu2as$10qbfa$1@ID-123438.news.uni-berlin.de… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> "Doug Anderson" <ethelthe…@yahoo.com> wrote in message > news:KqvUb.99278$U%5.489770@attbi_s03… > > Tracey <rbranch…@aol.com> writes: > > > Tony wrote: > > >  >If you don’t like stripes, don’t marry a zebra. > > > And I’ll add: If you marry a zebra, 20 years down > > > the road, > > Or even 37 (or whatever it is) > > > it’s futile to expect the zebra to turn > > > into a Clydesdale. > The analogy our therapist has used is that she’s a clam and I’m a bunny > rabbit. > Assuming he’s legitimate (which I believe he is) and not just taking our > money to replenish his bank account he does seem to believe there’s good > reason for our spending $2,000 a year to continue to see him.  While that’s > not my only reason for continuing to go, I have to believe him. > Ted

Seems like a small amount to pay.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Tony Miller wrote: > On 4 Feb 2004 19:35:59 -0800, Ralph DuBose > <rdub…@pdq.net> wrote: >> Tony Miller <t…@cigardiary.com> wrote in message >> <news:slrnc22hro.70t.tony@home.cigardiary.com>… >>> On Wed, 4 Feb 2004 10:09:28 -0600, Seeker >>> <tedds212removet…@yahoo.com> wrote: >>>> … I’m waiting for you to post this a third time; then I’ll know you mean >>>> it. (-: >>>> (quoth the Bellman, what I say three times is true…) >>>> An interesting challenge.  What you are asking is that somehow I get my >>>> wife to change enough so that she enjoys kissing.   I’m not sure I can >>>> accept that challenge, because that is not something that is in my power >>>> to bring about on any kind of timetable, if at all. >>> No, it’s for you to change so that you live and accept your wife the way >>> she is. >>    This sounds completely bogus to me. You have not specified any >> limits. >> Until you explain what the limits of toleration are in a marriage, >> your statement is meaningless. >>    For example, if a husband did little work and what money he did >> earn he gave to various girlfriends would you tell the wife to "accept >> him the way he is?" > No, she should divorce him and move on.  Not pretend to want to ‘work it > out’ peppered with stuff that comes out of psychology texts. > I can’t explain what the ‘limits of toleration’ are to Ted.  He has to > figure them out himself.  But if he hasn’t reached his limits he should > deal, since it’s obvious his wife isn’t changing any time soon. >>>> I’ll take it under advisement — what might you suggest as either ways to >>>> bring it about (that haven’t already been suggested) *or* an alternative? >>> Deal with your disappointments and love your wife. >>    Same problem. Are you saying a person gives up all personal claims >> on dignity and respect when entering marriage? That their spouse has a >> blank check for selfish behaviour at your expense? Because that is >> what you imply. > No, you find your limits as to what you can deal with, and deal with it. > When you have reached the end of your limit you get out. > I haven’t heard anything egregious from Ted that his wife has done.  She > seems like a bit of a cold fish.  She also doesn’t seem to have become a > cold fish recently (I could be wrong and I’m sure Ted will set me to > rights if I made a mistake).  If you don’t like stripes, don’t marry a > zebra.

Ted has already said "divorce is not an option".   (Of course, no explanation has been given).   SO – if that is the case, there is no resolution, and this will continue, ad infinitem.   N’est pas?    Am I missing something?

Response:

Tony wrote:

 >If you don’t like stripes, don’t marry a zebra. And I’ll add: If you marry a zebra, 20 years down the road, it’s futile to expect the zebra to turn into a Clydesdale. Tracey

Response:

Tracey <rbranch…@aol.com> writes: > Tony wrote: >  >If you don’t like stripes, don’t marry a zebra. > And I’ll add: If you marry a zebra, 20 years down > the road,

Or even 37 (or whatever it is) – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> it’s futile to expect the zebra to turn > into a Clydesdale.

Response:

"Doug Anderson" <ethelthe…@yahoo.com> wrote in message

news:KqvUb.99278$U%5.489770@attbi_s03… > Tracey <rbranch…@aol.com> writes: > > Tony wrote: > >  >If you don’t like stripes, don’t marry a zebra. > > And I’ll add: If you marry a zebra, 20 years down > > the road, > Or even 37 (or whatever it is) > > it’s futile to expect the zebra to turn > > into a Clydesdale.

The analogy our therapist has used is that she’s a clam and I’m a bunny rabbit. Assuming he’s legitimate (which I believe he is) and not just taking our money to replenish his bank account he does seem to believe there’s good reason for our spending $2,000 a year to continue to see him.  While that’s not my only reason for continuing to go, I have to believe him. Ted

Response:

On 2004-02-04 10:09:28 -0600, "Seeker" <tedds212removet…@yahoo.com> said: > … I’m waiting for you to post this a third time; then I’ll know you mean > it. (-: > (quoth the Bellman, what I say three times is true…) > An interesting challenge.  What you are asking is that somehow I get my wife > to change enough so that she enjoys kissing.   I’m not sure I can accept > that challenge, because that is not something that is in my power to bring > about on any kind of timetable, if at all.

That your wife actually enjoy it, while a great goal, is not expected. It’s going to be weird and awkward for her at first. There’s no two ways about that.  One would hope she’d acquire a taste for it over time, but there cannot be a second or third kiss without a first, -you have to start somewhere. > I’ll take it under advisement — what might you suggest as either ways to > bring it about (that haven’t already been suggested) *or* an alternative? > Ted

Oh come on now Ted. Take it under advisement?  This is one of your life goals, – remember? I *know* you can do this.  She’s moved out of her comfort zone for you before (in rather surprising ways). Just *ask* her. Tell her that it’s important to you.  Is it that she doesn’t want to or that she doesn’t know how to kiss you? I think you mentioned once that you’d like to be greeted by a kiss.  Well, I think that’s a  great idea.  If she does it enough, she may actually start to miss it when she can’t.

Response:

On 2004-02-04 12:34:54 -0600, "Seeker" <tedds212removet…@yahoo.com> said: > "Jingle Bells" <jinglebells5…@yahoo.com> wrote in message > news:f804e152.0402041018.24811abf@posting.google.com… > > Not sure what a guanlet is. Might be something you don’t really want to > pick up. > Well, I do know that I’m not sure I wanted to pick up your challenge, no > matter how it was spelled. > Ted

Why not Ted?  Because you can’t guarantee the results?  That’s what makes it a challenge!

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Tom Spielman wrote: > On 2004-02-04 12:34:54 -0600, "Seeker" <tedds212removet…@yahoo.com> said: >> "Jingle Bells" <jinglebells5…@yahoo.com> wrote in message >> news:f804e152.0402041018.24811abf@posting.google.com… >>> Not sure what a guanlet is. Might be something you don’t really want to >>> pick up. >> Well, I do know that I’m not sure I wanted to pick up your challenge, no >> matter how it was spelled. >> Ted > Why not Ted?  Because you can’t guarantee the results?  That’s what makes > it a challenge!

Because it is too hard to change oneself.   BTDT.    And still am.   You can admit it, Ted.   Maybe admitting some of this stuff is the first step…

Response:

On 4 Feb 2004 19:35:59 -0800, Ralph DuBose – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -<rdub…@pdq.net> wrote: > Tony Miller <t…@cigardiary.com> wrote in message <news:slrnc22hro.70t.tony@home.cigardiary.com>… >> On Wed, 4 Feb 2004 10:09:28 -0600, Seeker >> <tedds212removet…@yahoo.com> wrote: >> > … I’m waiting for you to post this a third time; then I’ll know you mean >> > it. (-: >> > (quoth the Bellman, what I say three times is true…) >> > An interesting challenge.  What you are asking is that somehow I get my wife >> > to change enough so that she enjoys kissing.   I’m not sure I can accept >> > that challenge, because that is not something that is in my power to bring >> > about on any kind of timetable, if at all. >> No, it’s for you to change so that you live and accept your wife the way >> she is. >    This sounds completely bogus to me. You have not specified any > limits. > Until you explain what the limits of toleration are in a marriage, > your statement is meaningless. >    For example, if a husband did little work and what money he did > earn he gave to various girlfriends would you tell the wife to "accept > him the way he is?"

No, she should divorce him and move on.  Not pretend to want to ‘work it out’ peppered with stuff that comes out of psychology texts. I can’t explain what the ‘limits of toleration’ are to Ted.  He has to figure them out himself.  But if he hasn’t reached his limits he should deal, since it’s obvious his wife isn’t changing any time soon. >> > I’ll take it under advisement — what might you suggest as either ways to >> > bring it about (that haven’t already been suggested) *or* an alternative? >> Deal with your disappointments and love your wife. >    Same problem. Are you saying a person gives up all personal claims > on dignity and respect when entering marriage? That their spouse has a > blank check for selfish behaviour at your expense? Because that is > what you imply.

No, you find your limits as to what you can deal with, and deal with it.   When you have reached the end of your limit you get out. I haven’t heard anything egregious from Ted that his wife has done.  She seems like a bit of a cold fish.  She also doesn’t seem to have become a cold fish recently (I could be wrong and I’m sure Ted will set me to rights if I made a mistake).  If you don’t like stripes, don’t marry a zebra. -Tony — "If the grass appears to be greener on the other side of the fence, it’s time to fertilize your lawn!" Want to jump start your marriage?  Consider a Marriage Encounter weekend. Check out http://www.wwme.org for more information.

Response:

"Ralph DuBose" <rdub…@pdq.net> wrote in message

news:cb5b2d4e.0402041935.50e334f0@posting.google.com… > Tony Miller <t…@cigardiary.com> wrote in message

<news:slrnc22hro.70t.tony@home.cigardiary.com>… > > On Wed, 4 Feb 2004 10:09:28 -0600, Seeker > > <tedds212removet…@yahoo.com> wrote: > > No, it’s for you to change so that you live and accept your wife the way > > she is. >    This sounds completely bogus to me. You have not specified any > limits. > Until you explain what the limits of toleration are in a marriage, > your statement is meaningless. >    For example, if a husband did little work and what money he did > earn he gave to various girlfriends would you tell the wife to "accept > him the way he is?"

I’d take this a little differently – some things *shouldn’t* be accepted, as a general thing (abuse, addiction, etc).  Some things can’t be accepted on a more personal level – because everybody has different preferences, tolerance levels, quirks, and histories.   Other things can be accepted.  To have a good marriage, both partners don’t have to be perfect – but they have to be compatible enough that they *can* accept each other.  If they can’t, if their "warts and all" are such that they can’t accept each others, then perhaps they shouldn’t be married at all. >    Same problem. Are you saying a person gives up all personal claims > on dignity and respect when entering marriage? That their spouse has a > blank check for selfish behaviour at your expense? Because that is > what you imply.

I didn’t think it implies that – not everybody or every behavior should be accepted – but a marriage should be between people who can in general accept each other and their behavior.

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Not sure what a guanlet is. Might be something you don’t really want to pick up.

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"Jingle Bells" <jinglebells5…@yahoo.com> wrote in message

news:f804e152.0402041018.24811abf@posting.google.com… > Not sure what a guanlet is. Might be something you don’t really want to

pick up. Well, I do know that I’m not sure I wanted to pick up your challenge, no matter how it was spelled. Ted

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On Wed, 4 Feb 2004 10:09:28 -0600, Seeker <tedds212removet…@yahoo.com> wrote: > … I’m waiting for you to post this a third time; then I’ll know you mean > it. (-: > (quoth the Bellman, what I say three times is true…) > An interesting challenge.  What you are asking is that somehow I get my wife > to change enough so that she enjoys kissing.   I’m not sure I can accept > that challenge, because that is not something that is in my power to bring > about on any kind of timetable, if at all.

No, it’s for you to change so that you live and accept your wife the way she is. > I’ll take it under advisement — what might you suggest as either ways to > bring it about (that haven’t already been suggested) *or* an alternative?

Deal with your disappointments and love your wife. -Tony — "If the grass appears to be greener on the other side of the fence, it’s time to fertilize your lawn!" Want to jump start your marriage?  Consider a Marriage Encounter weekend. Check out http://www.wwme.org for more information.

Response:

Tony Miller <t…@cigardiary.com> wrote in message <news:slrnc22hro.70t.tony@home.cigardiary.com>… > On Wed, 4 Feb 2004 10:09:28 -0600, Seeker > <tedds212removet…@yahoo.com> wrote: > > … I’m waiting for you to post this a third time; then I’ll know you mean > > it. (-: > > (quoth the Bellman, what I say three times is true…) > > An interesting challenge.  What you are asking is that somehow I get my wife > > to change enough so that she enjoys kissing.   I’m not sure I can accept > > that challenge, because that is not something that is in my power to bring > > about on any kind of timetable, if at all. > No, it’s for you to change so that you live and accept your wife the way > she is.

   This sounds completely bogus to me. You have not specified any limits. Until you explain what the limits of toleration are in a marriage, your statement is meaningless.    For example, if a husband did little work and what money he did earn he gave to various girlfriends would you tell the wife to "accept him the way he is?" > > I’ll take it under advisement — what might you suggest as either ways to > > bring it about (that haven’t already been suggested) *or* an alternative? > Deal with your disappointments and love your wife.

   Same problem. Are you saying a person gives up all personal claims on dignity and respect when entering marriage? That their spouse has a blank check for selfish behaviour at your expense? Because that is what you imply. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> -Tony

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… I’m waiting for you to post this a third time; then I’ll know you mean it. (-: (quoth the Bellman, what I say three times is true…) An interesting challenge.  What you are asking is that somehow I get my wife to change enough so that she enjoys kissing.   I’m not sure I can accept that challenge, because that is not something that is in my power to bring about on any kind of timetable, if at all. I’ll take it under advisement — what might you suggest as either ways to bring it about (that haven’t already been suggested) *or* an alternative? Ted "Jingle Bells" <jinglebells5…@yahoo.com> wrote in message

news:f804e152.0402040301.7e29910@posting.google.com… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> What do you say?

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"Seeker" <tedds212removet…@yahoo.com> writes: > … I’m waiting for you to post this a third time; then I’ll know you mean > it. (-: > (quoth the Bellman, what I say three times is true…) > An interesting challenge.  What you are asking is that somehow I get my wife > to change enough so that she enjoys kissing.

Read it again.  It is a fairly silly gauntlet to throw down, but that _isn’t_ what he was asking.

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Seeker wrote: > … I’m waiting for you to post this a third time; then I’ll know you mean > it. (-: > (quoth the Bellman, what I say three times is true…) > An interesting challenge.  What you are asking is that somehow I get my wife > to change enough so that she enjoys kissing.   I’m not sure I can accept > that challenge, because that is not something that is in my power to bring > about on any kind of timetable, if at all. > I’ll take it under advisement — what might you suggest as either ways to > bring it about (that haven’t already been suggested) *or* an alternative? > Ted > "Jingle Bells" <jinglebells5…@yahoo.com> wrote in message > news:f804e152.0402040301.7e29910@posting.google.com… > > What do you say?

View it not as CHANGING your wife which in that sense you can’t do.  BUT you can make a move that lowers her comfort level so she must "change". I think it was the "Dance of Intimacy" <is that the title of it?> that describes the process.  Maybe it can describe it easier for you.  But changing your situation depends entirely on YOU making a move — she isn’t going to and why would she?  She is comfortable.   amy

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Ok Ted, You’ve been accused of being a coward. In addition, some have suggested that you are more interested in attention and sympathy than you are in really fixing your marriage. I personally believe that one year from now, you will be pondering the same questions you ponder today, and will have made little or no progress towards improving your situation. Here’s your opportunity to prove us all wrong. How ? Recently you’ve lamented that you’re about to turn "Sweet 60" and you’ve never been really kissed. So, don’t let it become "Bitter 61". In other words, make it a goal to experience a real kiss by your 61st birthday. To me, if you can’t get your wife to kiss you within a year’s time, there’s not much hope for having her become the kind of wife you dream of. Maybe there’s some valid reasons for that not being a realistic goal, so I’m willing to entertain substitutes. What do you say? Since I tend to drift in and and out of usenet, I’m putting it in my PDA so that I’ll remember to check on your progress in a year’s time.

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jinglebells5…@yahoo.com (Jingle Bells) writes:

Jingle:         I don’t think your time span is realistic!  Ted has been         posting here at least for a year and a half.         During that time things seem not to have gotten any closer to         a crisis.

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Jingle Bells wrote: > Ok Ted, > You’ve been accused of being a coward. In addition, some have > suggested that you are more interested in attention and sympathy than > you are in really fixing your marriage. > I personally believe that one year from now, you will be pondering the > same questions you ponder today, and will have made little or no > progress towards improving your situation. > Here’s your opportunity to prove us all wrong. > How ? > Recently you’ve lamented that you’re about to turn "Sweet 60" and > you’ve never been really kissed. > So, don’t let it become "Bitter 61". > In other words, make it a goal to experience a real kiss by your 61st > birthday. To me, if you can’t get your wife to kiss you within a > year’s time, there’s not much hope for having her become the kind of > wife you dream of. > Maybe there’s some valid reasons for that not being a realistic goal, > so I’m willing to entertain substitutes. > What do you say? > Since I tend to drift in and and out of usenet, I’m putting it in my > PDA so that I’ll remember to check on your progress in a year’s time.

Hmmm.  I think I gave him 5 years.   No, I think what I said was I’d check back in 5 years, and (fully well) expect that the status quo had been maintained. So I think the guanlet will just stay there…

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Marilyn Monroe

Question:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – And just for the record – I’m not knocking how either of them look. I wish MORE people looked that way than the super slim we see today. I’d rather see someone like Renee be a roll model over someone like Paris Hilton, who is way too skinny. And slutty. Nice to have such role models for our young women. Martha Slutty doesn’t even begin to cover it.  Paris Hilton just happens to be my hubby’s latest fad girl.  And he wonders why I insist that I need to lose weight for him?  Just a small rant, sorry.  Saw red for a minute….it’s fading now….calming down now….pretty pink….looks like a sunset….there, I’m all better now. Amanda — LOL….  Oh Amanda, I think I can sympathize – although BF likes Nichole not Paris.   he thinks paris is too skinny, but Nicole looks good…  No red sight here…  Fooie on him if he chooses that… but its not like he’d ever get it anyway.     I’ll just return w/ my  comments on how hot I think Sting looks even now…  Or last night I was drooling over one of the contestents on the tic-tac-toe game…

My husband’s favorite woman-in-the-media is the plus-size model Emme .  He thinks all the actresses are too skinny.  (Actually, I think Emme is really attractive also.) Chris

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – amanda, do you talk freely to your husband about the guys that you think are hot? I do now, just cuz I’m tired of finding out that he’s been online looking at women that there’s no way I can compare to.  And you know what?  He’s gets huffy when I mention the guys I think are hot. Tough shit. I actually find that kind of funny.  In an ironic sort of way. I’ve noticed that he now refuses to watch Top Gun whenever it’s on since he knows I absolutely LOVE Tom Cruise in that movie. Hypocrit, isn’t he? Anyway, yes, I do, now.  I figure it’ll either help us communicate more, or he’ll figure out that if he doesn’t like me drooling over other guys,  maybe I don’t like him drooling over other women.  Hasn’t happened yet.  He still prefers to look at his size 2 models and nude celebrity sites and then try to tell me that he doesn’t like them. Does he look online at them often? Have you had a serious conversation with him about this? Not to be an alarmist, but it has lead to other things…. Martha

Oh, I know it can lead to other things.  We’ve had conversations, we’ve had fights.  He insists that "they" have nothing to do with me or sex and that "they" don’t mean anything to him, do anything for him and he doesn’t need them.  Of course, to my question of "why can’t you stop?" he gets defensive and that’s where the fights come in.  He would never cheat, physically, on me.  I trust him completely there.  Unfortunately, some of the things he does online fit my definition of cheating.  He’s stopped looking as much, at least on our computer.  He has a ready supply of magazines where he works, though and he looks at those instead.  The only time, lately, that he has spent lots of time looking is when I’m gone.  If I go out of town, or even if I’m just at school, he’ll spend all day online looking, but that hasn’t happened in about a month.  I tend to get rather aloof when I find out so he hasn’t been online as much.   He honestly doesn’t see anything wrong with his viewing habits.  He doesn’t understand why I don’t like it or how it makes me feel.  He makes promises, breaks them, we fight, he makes more promises.  I’m hoping if I’m more open about who else I find attractive, he’ll get the idea.  Oh well.  We’ll see what happens. Amanda —

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@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com: amanda, do you talk freely to your husband about the guys that you think are hot? I do now, just cuz I’m tired of finding out that he’s been online looking at women that there’s no way I can compare to.  And you know what?  He’s gets huffy when I mention the guys I think are hot.

Tough shit. I actually find that kind of funny.  In an ironic sort of way.  I’ve noticed that he now refuses to watch Top Gun whenever it’s on since he knows I absolutely LOVE Tom Cruise in that movie.

Hypocrit, isn’t he? Anyway, yes, I do, now.  I figure it’ll either help us communicate more, or he’ll figure out that if he doesn’t like me drooling over other guys,  maybe I don’t like him drooling over other women.  Hasn’t happened yet.  He still prefers to look at his size 2 models and nude celebrity sites and then try to tell me that he doesn’t like them.

Does he look online at them often? Have you had a serious conversation with him about this? Not to be an alarmist, but it has lead to other things…. Martha

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@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com: amanda, do you talk freely to your husband about the guys that you think are hot?

I do now, just cuz I’m tired of finding out that he’s been online looking at women that there’s no way I can compare to.  And you know what?  He’s gets huffy when I mention the guys I think are hot.  I actually find that kind of funny.  In an ironic sort of way.  I’ve noticed that he now refuses to watch Top Gun whenever it’s on since he knows I absolutely LOVE Tom Cruise in that movie.   Anyway, yes, I do, now.  I figure it’ll either help us communicate more, or he’ll figure out that if he doesn’t like me drooling over other guys,  maybe I don’t like him drooling over other women.  Hasn’t happened yet.  He still prefers to look at his size 2 models and nude celebrity sites and then try to tell me that he doesn’t like them. Amanda —

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In article – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – And just for the record – I’m not knocking how either of them look. I wish MORE people looked that way than the super slim we see today. I’d rather see someone like Renee be a roll model over someone like Paris Hilton, who is way too skinny. And slutty. Nice to have such role models for our young women. Martha Slutty doesn’t even begin to cover it.  Paris Hilton just happens to be my hubby’s latest fad girl.  And he wonders why I insist that I need to lose weight for him?  Just a small rant, sorry.  Saw red for a minute….it’s fading now….calming down now….pretty pink….looks like a sunset….there, I’m all better now. Amanda — LOL….  Oh Amanda, I think I can sympathize – although BF likes Nichole not Paris.   he thinks paris is too skinny, but Nicole looks good…  No red sight here…  Fooie on him if he chooses that… but its not like he’d ever get it anyway.     I’ll just return w/ my  comments on how hot I think Sting looks even now…  Or last night I was drooling over one of the contestents on the tic-tac-toe game… I just saw Return of the King last night, and I must say that Viggo, Karl Urban, Orlando Bloom and David Wenham looked delicious. : ) Martha

The qway the publicity machines are compacting the trash and spitting it at us I guess Bogey was right when he said "We’ll always have Paris." — Diva Completing 4 years of maintenance

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In article – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – And just for the record – I’m not knocking how either of them look. I wish MORE people looked that way than the super slim we see today. I’d rather see someone like Renee be a roll model over someone like Paris Hilton, who is way too skinny. And slutty. Nice to have such role models for our young women. Martha Slutty doesn’t even begin to cover it.  Paris Hilton just happens to be my hubby’s latest fad girl.  And he wonders why I insist that I need to lose weight for him?  Just a small rant, sorry.  Saw red for a minute….it’s fading now….calming down now….pretty pink….looks like a sunset….there, I’m all better now. Amanda — LOL….  Oh Amanda, I think I can sympathize – although BF likes Nichole not Paris.   he thinks paris is too skinny, but Nicole looks good…  No red sight here…  Fooie on him if he chooses that… but its not like he’d ever get it anyway.     I’ll just return w/ my  comments on how hot I think Sting looks even now…  Or last night I was drooling over one of the contestents on the tic-tac-toe game… I just saw Return of the King last night, and I must say that Viggo, Karl Urban, Orlando Bloom and David Wenham looked delicious. : ) Martha I saw Intolerable Cruellty and George Clooney can be my divorce lawyer

as long as he’s not my spouse. — Diva Completing 4 years of maintenance

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Replying to myself. On further investigation of the photos on that site, it is apparent that MM had a few varying weight sizes over the years.  (don’t we all!!! ) She’s obviously very slim in this photo:

http://www.fortunecity.co.uk/cinerama/brazil/371/colourshots/colour_f… As apposed to being heavier in this photo:

http://www.fortunecity.co.uk/cinerama/brazil/371/colourshots/colour_c… Wow, there’s a huge difference in the pics.  I’d like to be somewhere in the middle… det

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Its the measurement of her clothing size that makes the difference here.   And its been stated before that clothing of today is sized differently than yrs ago.    A size 6 today would fit a woman the way a size 12 fit before.

Are you serious?  Have sizes changed that much over the years?  Talk about padding the ego… det

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – And just for the record – I’m not knocking how either of them look. I wish MORE people looked that way than the super slim we see today. I’d rather see someone like Renee be a roll model over someone like Paris Hilton, who is way too skinny. And slutty. Nice to have such role models for our young women. Martha Slutty doesn’t even begin to cover it.  Paris Hilton just happens to be my hubby’s latest fad girl.  And he wonders why I insist that I need to lose weight for him?  Just a small rant, sorry.  Saw red for a minute….it’s fading now….calming down now….pretty pink….looks like a sunset….there, I’m all better now. Amanda — LOL….  Oh Amanda, I think I can sympathize – although BF likes Nichole not Paris.   he thinks paris is too skinny, but Nicole looks good…  No red sight here…  Fooie on him if he chooses that… but its not like he’d ever get it anyway.     I’ll just return w/ my  comments on how hot I think Sting looks even now…  Or last night I was drooling over one of the contestents on the tic-tac-toe game…

I just saw Return of the King last night, and I must say that Viggo, Karl Urban, Orlando Bloom and David Wenham looked delicious. : ) Martha – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

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amanda, do you talk freely to your husband about the guys that you think are hot? — rosie the main reason Santa is so jolly is because he knows where all the bad girls live.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – And just for the record – I’m not knocking how either of them look. I wish MORE people looked that way than the super slim we see today. I’d rather see someone like Renee be a roll model over someone like Paris Hilton, who is way too skinny. And slutty. Nice to have such role models for our young women. Martha Slutty doesn’t even begin to cover it.  Paris Hilton just happens to be my hubby’s latest fad girl.  And he wonders why I insist that I need to lose weight for him?  Just a small rant, sorry.  Saw red for a minute….it’s fading now….calming down now….pretty pink….looks like a sunset….there, I’m all better now. Amanda —

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – And just for the record – I’m not knocking how either of them look. I wish MORE people looked that way than the super slim we see today. I’d rather see someone like Renee be a roll model over someone like Paris Hilton, who is way too skinny. And slutty. Nice to have such role models for our young women. Martha Slutty doesn’t even begin to cover it.  Paris Hilton just happens to be my hubby’s latest fad girl.  And he wonders why I insist that I need to lose weight for him?  Just a small rant, sorry.  Saw red for a minute….it’s fading now….calming down now….pretty pink….looks like a sunset….there, I’m all better now. Amanda —

LOL….  Oh Amanda, I think I can sympathize – although BF likes Nichole not Paris.   he thinks paris is too skinny, but Nicole looks good…  No red sight here…  Fooie on him if he chooses that… but its not like he’d ever get it anyway.     I’ll just return w/ my  comments on how hot I think Sting looks even now…  Or last night I was drooling over one of the contestents on the tic-tac-toe game…

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And just for the record – I’m not knocking how either of them look. I wish MORE people looked that way than the super slim we see today. I’d rather see someone like Renee be a roll model over someone like Paris Hilton, who is way too skinny. And slutty. Nice to have such role models for our young women. Martha

Slutty doesn’t even begin to cover it.  Paris Hilton just happens to be my hubby’s latest fad girl.  And he wonders why I insist that I need to lose weight for him?  Just a small rant, sorry.  Saw red for a minute….it’s fading now….calming down now….pretty pink….looks like a sunset….there, I’m all better now. Amanda —

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Porked up? She went up to a whopping 120 pounds I think. Last I heard she was upwards of 140 or so, But I can’t recall.   Hey, I was just quoting from some source I’d read about her eating her donuts to gain weight.   An interview with her a few months ago had her saying she was eating something like a dozen donuts a day to gain weight.

http://entertainment.msn.com/photos/gallery.aspx?gallery=2910&photo=1… hotos current photo from a couple weeks ago. And just for the record – I’m not knocking how either of them look. I wish MORE people looked that way than the super slim we see today. I’d rather see someone like Renee be a roll model over someone like Paris Hilton, who is way too skinny.

And slutty. Nice to have such role models for our young women. Martha

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The internet movie database says she is 5′3" but it doesn’t say how much weight she’s gained.  Every time there was a scene in Bridget Jones Diary where she was working out like a maniac, my DH would say "she’s not fat".  I really didn’t see it either.  She looked "normal" to me.  I’ve seen the coverage of awards shows where she appeared and she was too skinny, (arms like twigs) before she gained the weight.  TV adds a lot of weight to the look of a person so I imagine that some of those actresses are scary looking in real life.  Lara Flynn Boyle is scary to look at on tv!  So is Paris Hilton.  No way would I want to be that skinny. Tonia (top posting because everyone else has)

Porked up? She went up to a whopping 120 pounds I think. Last I heard she was upwards of 140 or so, But I can’t recall.   Hey, I was just quoting from some source I’d read about her eating her donuts to gain weight.   An interview with her a few months ago had her saying she was eating something like a dozen donuts a day to gain weight.

http://entertainment.msn.com/photos/gallery.aspx?gallery=2910&photo=1… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – current photo from a couple weeks ago. And just for the record – I’m not knocking how either of them look. I wish MORE people looked that way than the super slim we see today. I’d rather see someone like Renee be a roll model over someone like Paris Hilton, who is way too skinny. MM was very womanly, and she didn’t wear girdles etc. When they had some of her dresses on a news show last year, they said the dresses were equal to a current size 6-8.  I have no idea if that is the truth, but she certainly never looked fat. Melissa actually, have you seen Anna Nicole lately?   I’d say they are both very close in size. Or, how about Renee Z. after she’s porked up for the Brigette jones sequal? The sad thing is, is today, Monroe would be considered too fat to ever become a model, let alone an actress. "I would rather be dead than be as fat as Marilyn Monroe." – Elizabeth Hurley Martha I mentioned over in misc.fitness.weights that Marilyn Monroe lifted weights, which is obvious if you look at pictures of her, she’s got that sexy toned look you only get if you have muscles under your skin. Anyway, someone posted this site and I found it so inspirational that I wanted to share it. http://oneartrow.com/Pages/Marilyn_Weights.html Dally

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Porked up? She went up to a whopping 120 pounds I think.  MM was very womanly, and she didn’t wear girdles etc. When they had some of her dresses on a news show last year, they said the dresses were equal to a current size 6-8.  I have no idea if that is the truth, but she certainly never looked fat. Melissa According to many websites her measurements were 35-37 bust, 22-23 waist and 22 inch waist?   I thought it was larger than that….

22-23 according to this site. http://www.fortunecity.co.uk/cinerama/brazil/371/biography.html – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – 36-36 hips.  I too doubt she would wear a size 12 in today’s world. Beverly actually, have you seen Anna Nicole lately?   I’d say they are both very close in size. Or, how about Renee Z. after she’s porked up for the Brigette jones sequal? The sad thing is, is today, Monroe would be considered too fat to ever become a model, let alone an actress. "I would rather be dead than be as fat as Marilyn Monroe." – Elizabeth Hurley Martha I mentioned over in misc.fitness.weights that Marilyn Monroe lifted weights, which is obvious if you look at pictures of her, she’s got that sexy toned look you only get if you have muscles under your skin. Anyway, someone posted this site and I found it so inspirational that I wanted to share it. http://oneartrow.com/Pages/Marilyn_Weights.html Dally

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Or, how about Renee Z. after she’s porked up for the Brigette jones sequal?

expression that should be dumped!

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womanly, and she didn’t wear girdles etc. When they had some of her dresses on a news show last year, they said the dresses were equal to a current size 6-8.  I have no idea if that is the truth, but she certainly never looked fat. Melissa

that would be because she wasn’t

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Porked up? She went up to a whopping 120 pounds I think.  MM was very womanly, and she didn’t wear girdles etc. When they had some of her dresses on a news show last year, they said the dresses were equal to a current size 6-8.  I have no idea if that is the truth, but she certainly never looked fat. Melissa

According to many websites her measurements were 35-37 bust, 22-23 waist and 36-36 hips.  I too doubt she would wear a size 12 in today’s world. Beverly – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – actually, have you seen Anna Nicole lately?   I’d say they are both very close in size. Or, how about Renee Z. after she’s porked up for the Brigette jones sequal? The sad thing is, is today, Monroe would be considered too fat to ever become a model, let alone an actress. "I would rather be dead than be as fat as Marilyn Monroe." – Elizabeth Hurley Martha I mentioned over in misc.fitness.weights that Marilyn Monroe lifted weights, which is obvious if you look at pictures of her, she’s got that sexy toned look you only get if you have muscles under your skin. Anyway, someone posted this site and I found it so inspirational that I wanted to share it. http://oneartrow.com/Pages/Marilyn_Weights.html Dally

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Porked up? She went up to a whopping 120 pounds I think.  MM was very womanly, and she didn’t wear girdles etc. When they had some of her dresses on a news show last year, they said the dresses were equal to a current size 6-8.  I have no idea if that is the truth, but she certainly never looked fat. Melissa

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – actually, have you seen Anna Nicole lately?   I’d say they are both very close in size. Or, how about Renee Z. after she’s porked up for the Brigette jones sequal? The sad thing is, is today, Monroe would be considered too fat to ever become a model, let alone an actress. "I would rather be dead than be as fat as Marilyn Monroe." – Elizabeth Hurley Martha I mentioned over in misc.fitness.weights that Marilyn Monroe lifted weights, which is obvious if you look at pictures of her, she’s got that sexy toned look you only get if you have muscles under your skin. Anyway, someone posted this site and I found it so inspirational that I wanted to share it. http://oneartrow.com/Pages/Marilyn_Weights.html Dally

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actually, have you seen Anna Nicole lately?   I’d say they are both very close in size. Or, how about Renee Z. after she’s porked up for the Brigette jones sequal?

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – The sad thing is, is today, Monroe would be considered too fat to ever become a model, let alone an actress. "I would rather be dead than be as fat as Marilyn Monroe." – Elizabeth Hurley Martha I mentioned over in misc.fitness.weights that Marilyn Monroe lifted weights, which is obvious if you look at pictures of her, she’s got that sexy toned look you only get if you have muscles under your skin. Anyway, someone posted this site and I found it so inspirational that I wanted to share it. http://oneartrow.com/Pages/Marilyn_Weights.html Dally

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The sad thing is, is today, Monroe would be considered too fat to ever become a model, let alone an actress. "I would rather be dead than be as fat as Marilyn Monroe." – Elizabeth Hurley Martha

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I mentioned over in misc.fitness.weights that Marilyn Monroe lifted weights, which is obvious if you look at pictures of her, she’s got that sexy toned look you only get if you have muscles under your skin. Anyway, someone posted this site and I found it so inspirational that I wanted to share it. http://oneartrow.com/Pages/Marilyn_Weights.html Dally

Response:

I mentioned over in misc.fitness.weights that Marilyn Monroe lifted weights, which is obvious if you look at pictures of her, she’s got that sexy toned look you only get if you have muscles under your skin. Anyway, someone posted this site and I found it so inspirational that I wanted to share it. http://oneartrow.com/Pages/Marilyn_Weights.html Dally

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