Question:
"shinypenny" <shinypenny0…@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:c8cb5319.0403291134.562b1a54@posting.google.com… > How about negotiating this agreement with your wife. If she ever falls > out of love with you again and contemplates sleeping with someone > else, that is fine with you *PROVIDED* she tell you first – before she > does so. This would give you a chance to be able to 1) determine if > you’ve been neglecting her and if there’s anything you can personally > do to restore her love for her; 2) decide whether you want to let her > sleep with someone else, and if not, let her go.
Why do you place any burden on him to determine if he’s been neglecting her, that it might be his job to restore her love for him? > She can feel free to sleep with others if your marriage ever gets that > bad again, yet she must treat you with the respect and dignity you > deserve, by warning you first and giving you the option to fix things, > or leave the relationship with your own dignity intact.
Hmmm… why does her desire to go out and sleep with someone else imply *he* has to fix something? (My questions of course have a not very hidden motive to them!) Ted
Response:
Boyce <Bo…@Beeker.localhost> wrote in message <news:slrnc6e5ei.roa.Boyce@ip68-96-127-74.lu.dl.cox.net>… > She cannot promise that it won’t happen again because > a committment to a person vanishes when you have a day that you don’t > particularly care for that person. If you no longer love that person > then the committment becomes something flimsey, even pointless.
But even if you no longer love that person, can’t you be committed to them in the sense that you wouldn’t do something that has the potential to hurt them greatly? > If > you’re committed to an idea then you have less investment in the > emotional aspects of the relationship (a frustration she has > expressed with my view) as they pertain to two people.
Actually, I can understand her concern there. My ex was much more committed to the institution of marriage, than to me. It allowed him to get very lazy in the relationship. He just assumed it didn’t matter if he neglected our relationship, because we were committed to the long haul. > I probably should have saved the open marriage thing for > another post. It was something she expressed an interest in > at one point and I can see an attractiveness to it.
What I am reading into your words is that neither you and your wife want to make or agree to an ultimatum. Makes sense to me, particularly given the fact that she’s already cheated and you’ve already taken her back once. I’m sensing that if she cheated again, you’re not completely confident that would be the end of it for you. You can possibly see yourself forgiving her again; she can probably see herself asking for your forgiveness again. That’s the interesting thing about personal boundaries – it’s easy to say "I’d dump you if you ever cheat on me again" – but we never really know how we’re going to react UNTIL that boundary is crossed. You asked not about dealing with the past, but how to handle the future. I can see how, without an ultimatum, you may feel it hard to relax. Yet with an ultimatum, you might live in constant fear you’ll have to follow up on your promise. It’s like waiting for the other shoe to drop, no? How about negotiating this agreement with your wife. If she ever falls out of love with you again and contemplates sleeping with someone else, that is fine with you *PROVIDED* she tell you first – before she does so. This would give you a chance to be able to 1) determine if you’ve been neglecting her and if there’s anything you can personally do to restore her love for her; 2) decide whether you want to let her sleep with someone else, and if not, let her go. She can feel free to sleep with others if your marriage ever gets that bad again, yet she must treat you with the respect and dignity you deserve, by warning you first and giving you the option to fix things, or leave the relationship with your own dignity intact. jen
Response:
Boyce wrote: > She doesn’t believe her committment is transitory, I worry. So > your statement, "…is stronger than many commitments made to a > marriage" actually reassures me. My wife isn’t particularly trying > to justify her actions. I forgave her so the past isn’t really > an issue. I’m looking for something that helps me deal with the > future rather than the past.
Well, I’ve been in the ’spouse cheated, now what?’ situation. My husband and I had talked about adultery before we married and I said then that him having an affair would be a deal- breaker for me. Of course, I found out that saying that from the safety of not being married was waaaayyyy different than ending the marriage when he did have an affair. So, there we were. He had an affair that he had already once said he would never have, I had decided that I wouldn’t immediately end the marriage. There was the ‘Now what?’ point. Him saying he would never have another affair meant nothing to me at the time. He had already said he wouldn’t have an affair and that had proven to be wrong. There was *no way* I would have believed him again. But, I was choosing to remain married to him. How could I find a way to think that would keep me from constantly being on the lookout for another affair? Which, of course, would have ended up either driving me totally bugnutty or driving him straight out the door. This is what worked for me. I made it very clear that I would not go through all of that again. I no longer trusted *him* but I trusted *myself* to immediately leave and file for a divorce if he ever slept with anyone other than me again. No more chances. No talks. No counseling. No ‘we’ll remain friends’. No possibility of *anything* between us other than what had to be done because we had children together. I made this very, very, very (I don’t know how to emphasize how extremely clear and unam- biguous I was about this) VERY clear to him. Once I did that, it was a load off my mind. I didn’t *have* to worry about whether he would or wouldn’t cheat again. It made no difference at that point. I knew exactly what would happen if he did so there was no reason to stew about it or worry about it or stress about it anymore. Now, I’m not saying this works for everyone. It worked for *me*. At the same time, you have to be extremely positive that that is what you would do. For me, I was. I had just spent something like six months trying to head it two or three different directions, trying to figure out what was happening, trying to deal with some extremely difficult emotional situations that had nothing to do with his affair and I was wrung out. I was exhausted. I knew I had to focus myself on one thing and one thing only because I was either going to kill myself (figuratively) or kill him (maybe figuratively 
) if I had to continue trying to figure out how to fix our marriage and how to prepare for divorcing at the same time. So, I told him that the day I found out he had slept with another person, I was packing the bags and I was going to my parents’ house. If we didn’t have the money for travel, I would ask my parents. If they didn’t, I would be calling his parents for the money. I would then file for divorce ASAP. No ifs, ands, or buts about it. And then I told him that now, that was over. I knew what I was going to do and I wasn’t going to think about it anymore. It was totally in his hands whether that would happen. And it helped me tremendously. I could tell myself if I could just get through this NOW, I wouldn’t ever have to go through this exact same thing ever again with him. I might have to deal with a divorce in the future, but I wouldn’t have to deal with the stuff with trying to repair a marriage after an affair again. I could focus on doing what I needed to do rather than worry about what I *would* do if he had another affair. I already knew what I would do. No need to worry about it. Of course, it didn’t immediately turn my thought process around, but eventually, after some rewriting of the tapes in my head, it did. Tracey
Response:
"Seeker" <tedds212removet…@yahoo.com> wrote in message <news:c49vlq$2fu4dv$1@ID-123438.news.uni-berlin.de>… > "shinypenny" <shinypenny0…@yahoo.com> wrote in message > news:c8cb5319.0403291134.562b1a54@posting.google.com… > > How about negotiating this agreement with your wife. If she ever falls > > out of love with you again and contemplates sleeping with someone > > else, that is fine with you *PROVIDED* she tell you first – before she > > does so. This would give you a chance to be able to 1) determine if > > you’ve been neglecting her and if there’s anything you can personally > > do to restore her love for her; 2) decide whether you want to let her > > sleep with someone else, and if not, let her go. > Why do you place any burden on him to determine if he’s been neglecting her, > that it might be his job to restore her love for him?
Because, as he’s described his wife, she has a fear that "commitment" means laziness. Because the way I’m reading her previous cheating episode is that she did so as a wake-up call to her husband. For all we know, she was expressing misery all along but her husband did nothing to address it, until she cheated. It doesn’t seem to me that she had had "enough" and was sick and tired of trying to get his attention – otherwise, she would have divorced him long before going into the arms of another man (his *cousin,* no less ! Talk about a cry for help, a ploy to deliberately kick her husband in the balls). I suspect that’s why she’s reserving the right to cheat again, and yet has constructed things in such a way as it won’t necessarily be a deal breaker. She doesn’t want to lose her husband. Just wants to shake him up and get his attention, if he ever lets his commitment to their marriage make him get lazy again. And it sure sounds like her previous cheating episode worked quite well and got her what she wanted. Why should she give up that tactic in the future? And therefore, should he choose to stay married under her conditions, then it would be his obligation to do the work and address her issues if it gets to that point again. He, OTOH, gets the right to know *before* she actually cheats that she has gotten that unhappy again. Of course, it would be ideal if both could have a relationship in which she felt free to speak up and be heard, and he would hear her. None of this stupid, hurtful game playing. > > She can feel free to sleep with others if your marriage ever gets that > > bad again, yet she must treat you with the respect and dignity you > > deserve, by warning you first and giving you the option to fix things, > > or leave the relationship with your own dignity intact. > Hmmm… why does her desire to go out and sleep with someone else imply > *he* has to fix something? > (My questions of course have a not very hidden motive to them!)
Because it’s a cry for attention. A deceitful, harmful, pretty lousy cry for attention. Surely you understand the thought process his wife is going through here, don’t you, Ted? Haven’t you considered it yourself? No where does it indicate the wife cheated because she was plain horny. Actually, come to think of it, maybe the OP should consent to an open marriage. It would defuse this whole tactic of hers. jen
Response:
"Boyce" <Bo…@Beeker.localhost> wrote in message
news:slrnc6fdon.rv.Boyce@ip68-96-127-74.lu.dl.cox.net… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> In article <jPG9c.25313$fl6.11…@bignews1.bellsouth.net>, Joy wrote: > > "Boyce" <Bo…@Beeker.localhost> wrote in message > > news:slrnc6e5ei.roa.Boyce@ip68-96-127-74.lu.dl.cox.net… > >> Thanks for your care in responding Tracey, I appreciate it. > >> Let me explain why the issue of what marriage is becomes central > >> in our discussions. > >> If your concept on marriage differs then your actions and feelings > >> will differ according to circumstances as well. If it were just > >> a semantic issue I’d have to agree that it wasn’t important. > >> It becomes a little more important when I don’t see her feel > >> any guilt for what I believe was something she significantly did > >> wrong. > > Are you referring to the part where she slept with your cousin? > Not just that but that is pretty high on the list. > > Since her committment is only to me, as soon as I’m okay > >> with her again then all is well. > > She’d have to be pretty presumptuous to assume that you WOULD be OK with her > > again after an escape like that. Some people consider sleeping around – > > especially in the absence of any reason to think it won’t happen again – to > > be a dealbreaker. It is up to you whether or not you see it that way, but > > that is your choice to make. > It took some time but I’ve forgiven her for it. I still think about it > and we still talk about it but our relationship is good again. Most of > the time it isn’t an issue. She says that she wants to promise it will > never happen again but knows that if she ever does screw up that way > again and has promised not to then it WOULD potentially be a deal breaker.
Most people actually commit to not cheating BEFORE marriage. But maybe those were just our vows. YOU get to determine what makes this a deal breaker. If she thinks it is "OK" to cheat as long as she did not ever say she wouldn’t, you do not have to accept this. You can say, no dice. Marriage means no cheating. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> > Since my own view differs I don’t > >> feel happy about our relationship even though I may not feel personal > >> hurt. She cannot promise that it won’t happen again because > >> a committment to a person vanishes when you have a day that you don’t > >> particularly care for that person. If you no longer love that person > >> then the committment becomes something flimsey, even pointless. If > >> you’re committed to an idea then you have less investment in the > >> emotional aspects of the relationship (a frustration she has > >> expressed with my view) as they pertain to two people. > > If your concern is that she has cheated on you once, and won’t commit to not > > cheating again, well, that is a very legitimate concern. You are right to > > be concerned. IMO, the key thing is that she is an unrepentant cheater. > > Does it really matter whether or not her cheating stems from a different > > view of marriage? I don’t think so. People use all kinds of convoluted > > logic to justify cheating, and this might be a little more creative than > > some I’ve heard – but creative excuses do not justify bad behavior. > Committment is such a funny word. What does it really mean? Motivation > and resolution eventually come up when trying to figure that question and > that is related to views of an institution like and in particular this time > marriage. > >> I probably should have saved the open marriage thing for > >> another post. It was something she expressed an interest in > >> at one point and I can see an attractiveness to it. I don’t > >> think it is revelant in our relationship or this discussion at > >> this point. > > To me it sounds relevant, because of the cheating issue. You seem to have > > concerns because she won’t say she won’t do it again. Well, an open > > marriage doesn’t change that behavior, just legitimizes it. It sounds like > > another avenue for her to have her cake and eat it too, to me. > Humm. Good point and thanks for stating it so clearly. I don’t think > I had thought of it that way before. > > Joy > Thank you for your thoughtful reply Joy.
Response:
Boyce <Bo…@Beeker.localhost> wrote in message <news:slrnc6fdon.rv.Boyce@ip68-96-127-74.lu.dl.cox.net>… > Committment is such a funny word. What does it really mean? Motivation > and resolution eventually come up when trying to figure that question and > that is related to views of an institution like and in particular this time > marriage.
For me committment means caring for the other person with respect and dignity they deserve – even if I fall out of love with them. Heck, I am committed to my closest friends, and we’re not married. I may not agree with their values sometimes, but I am committed not to hurt them and abuse their confidence. I am likewise committed to my employer. Sure, there may come a day when I no longer want to work here – because my employer has crossed one of my boundaries (for example, not enough pay; unethical behavior; too long of a commute; hours longer than I want, etc). However, I will treat my employer with respect and give two weeks’ notice. In my use of the word, I think a spouse can still be committed even if they are no longer in love, even if the relationship is suffering, yes, even if they’ve already divorced and remarried to other people! For example I am still committed to my ex in the sense that I give him the respect he deserves as parent to our children. In fact, it is possible to stay married for a lifetime, never cheat, and still not be committed to your partner. These are the type of relationships that stay together even though both partners treat each other with contempt, disrespect, or neglect. Sounds to me like this is what worries your spouse, and what she would like to avoid at all costs. I find it interesting she won’t promise not to cheat again precisely because if she breaks that promise, she knows you WILL walk. She doesn’t want to lose you. Instead perhaps she views cheating as a loud-and-clear way to tell you that she’s terribly unhappy with your relationship and wants your attention. Sounds like she wants to reserve her right to exercise this tactic if necessary down the road… but it’s only that, a tactic… she doesn’t really want to lose you. Just get your attention. If I’m right, then it might be helpful if you would point out to her that it would be much more respectful if she could simply communicate this unhappiness to you next time, instead of behaving in such a disrespectful way. jen
Response:
"Boyce" <Bo…@Beeker.localhost> wrote in message
news:slrnc6gppc.8g6.Boyce@ip68-96-127-74.lu.dl.cox.net… > In article <ZfU9c.21576$b_2.20…@bignews4.bellsouth.net>, Joy wrote: > No, but promising and failing is worse than not promising and failing > wouldn’t you say? Or perhaps you think it is better to make a promise > you know you might not keep. I’m not particularly happy that she doesn’t > have the confidence in herself to make a promise but I’m more concerned > about the motivation than the words.
I guess I don’t understand the part about having confidence in herself to make a promise. I’ve been seeing it as either a person is willing to be faithful, or they aren’t. My take on it has been that if she isn’t willing to make the promise, it is because she isn’t willing to be faithful – to me it is tantamount to announcing a willingness to cheat again, given the opportunity. Perhaps this is incorrect, it is just the way I read it. > It seems odd to me that you have tried so quickly to jump to my defense. More > odd that you seem so adamant that I should have a stronger negative reaction. > I’d had my negative reactions but am pretty much past that now.
Hmm, didn’t try to be odd, or even to jump to your defense. I’m just telling you my reaction to the information you posted. It does seem like you’ve bent a lot farther backwards to justify her behavior and to accept her refusal to say she won’t do it again than most people would have done. Everybody is different, though. Just curious (and please don’t feel obliged to respond) -are you in general a "conflict-avoider"? Joy
Response:
"Boyce" <Bo…@Beeker.localhost> wrote in message
news:slrnc6e5ei.roa.Boyce@ip68-96-127-74.lu.dl.cox.net… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> In article <40664E60.9000…@aol.com>, Tracey wrote: > > Boyce wrote: > >> Basically it boils down to the fact that my wife and I view marriage > >> differently. I see it as a committment to an ideal that includes myself, > >> her, our families, our children and God. She sees marriage as a committment > >> to a person. > > Okay. Here’s my question. Why is this difference causing problems? > > If the end result is the same, why would differing opinions/thoughts > > on the subject be a cause for problems? If I decided to never take > > another drink of alcohol because of possible health reasons or > > I didn’t like the way I got when I drank or because of the calories > > and my husband never drank for religious reasons, that shouldn’t > > be a cause for problems, right? > > So why is the fact that your basis for commitment is different from > > your wife’s basis of commitment causing you all problems? > >> Basically we’re having problems because her mother is a nut, I’m stubborn > >> and self-rightous, she slept with my cousin, I did something really bad > >> when I was a young teenager and of course we never have enough money. > > Sounds like there’s more than just a different in commitment beliefs > > going on. In fact, sounds like it’s a red herring because, sheesh, > > there’s enough else going on in your life that that other thing is > > something that is pretty minor, right? > >> I guess what I’m looking for from this group is some different opinions on > >> what marriage is and should be and how to deal with it when you don’t see > >> it the same way as your spouse. > > IMO, what different people believe marriage is or isn’t doesn’t really > > matter. What matters is what the two people who are married to each > > other believe. > >> Additonally, I’m curious how many marriages survive what is called an "open > >> marriage." Basically my wife doesn’t feel guilty for the act of having sex > >> with someone else but only guilty for hurting me. We’re getting past that > >> but I would like to know whether swallowing my pride and letting her sleep > >> with other prople would doom us. I can’t say I like the idea, doubt I could > >> do it but would like to know whether I should even consider it. > > I hesitate to answer this part since you’ve already gotten a little > > upset when other people did. But, look, this is approximately 1/4 of > > your post. And the *only* part that wasn’t ambiguous and vague. > > Tracey > Thanks for your care in responding Tracey, I appreciate it. > Let me explain why the issue of what marriage is becomes central > in our discussions. > If your concept on marriage differs then your actions and feelings > will differ according to circumstances as well. If it were just > a semantic issue I’d have to agree that it wasn’t important. > It becomes a little more important when I don’t see her feel > any guilt for what I believe was something she significantly did > wrong. Since her committment is only to me, as soon as I’m okay > with her again then all is well. Since my own view differs I don’t > feel happy about our relationship even though I may not feel personal > hurt. She cannot promise that it won’t happen again because > a committment to a person vanishes when you have a day that you don’t > particularly care for that person.
Did your marriage vows include the promise to forsake all others? Or only when you are not pissed off? That seems a pretty weird "committment" to me. Well, it does not seem like a comittment at all. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> If you no longer love that person > then the committment becomes something flimsey, even pointless. If > you’re committed to an idea then you have less investment in the > emotional aspects of the relationship (a frustration she has > expressed with my view) as they pertain to two people. > The other issues are probably overstated. They certainly add > stress to the situation but we’ve dealt with stress before > and probably will have to occassionally for the rest of our > lives or at least until we outlive our families. We only > have problems coping when we don’t have the same goals or > values. > I probably should have saved the open marriage thing for > another post. It was something she expressed an interest in > at one point and I can see an attractiveness to it. I don’t > think it is revelant in our relationship or this discussion at > this point. I guess I was actually hoping someone would have > hard numbers and references for studies I could refer to.
I think you have the same choices all married couples have who are having difficulty: 1. Keep working, talking and whatever it takes until you can see eye-to-eye. Or at least until you can reach a situation that you can both live with. Do counseling, whatever it takes. 2. Decide that the situation is untenable and get out. That’s my thought. S
Response:
I started to post an autobiography but then thought I should start with something shorter. Basically it boils down to the fact that my wife and I view marriage differently. I see it as a committment to an ideal that includes myself, her, our families, our children and God. She sees marriage as a committment to a person. Basically we’re having problems because her mother is a nut, I’m stubborn and self-rightous, she slept with my cousin, I did something really bad when I was a young teenager and of course we never have enough money. I guess what I’m looking for from this group is some different opinions on what marriage is and should be and how to deal with it when you don’t see it the same way as your spouse. Additonally, I’m curious how many marriages survive what is called an "open marriage." Basically my wife doesn’t feel guilty for the act of having sex with someone else but only guilty for hurting me. We’re getting past that but I would like to know whether swallowing my pride and letting her sleep with other prople would doom us. I can’t say I like the idea, doubt I could do it but would like to know whether I should even consider it.
Response:
If you are not comfortable with an open marriage.. I guess you have two choices.. 1. Tell her that is not acceptable behavior to you…and that if she continues.. then your marriage is in jeopardy. or 2. Allow her to have an "open" relationship..and live with it.. Kass "Boyce" <Bo…@Beeker.localhost> wrote in message
news:slrnc6c1pl.dfj.Boyce@ip68-96-127-74.lu.dl.cox.net… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> I started to post an autobiography but then thought I should start with > something shorter. > Basically it boils down to the fact that my wife and I view marriage > differently. I see it as a committment to an ideal that includes myself, > her, our families, our children and God. She sees marriage as a committment > to a person. > Basically we’re having problems because her mother is a nut, I’m stubborn > and self-rightous, she slept with my cousin, I did something really bad > when I was a young teenager and of course we never have enough money. > I guess what I’m looking for from this group is some different opinions on > what marriage is and should be and how to deal with it when you don’t see > it the same way as your spouse. > Additonally, I’m curious how many marriages survive what is called an "open > marriage." Basically my wife doesn’t feel guilty for the act of having sex > with someone else but only guilty for hurting me. We’re getting past that > but I would like to know whether swallowing my pride and letting her sleep > with other prople would doom us. I can’t say I like the idea, doubt I could > do it but would like to know whether I should even consider it.
Response:
In article <MEq9c.1923$WC3.17…@ord-read.news.verio.net>, Whisper wrote: > If you are not comfortable with an open marriage.. I guess you have two > choices.. > 1. Tell her that is not acceptable behavior to you…and that if she > continues.. then your marriage is in jeopardy. > or > 2. Allow her to have an "open" relationship..and live with it.. > Kass
Thanks Kass but you’re not really answering what I was looking for. I don’t really mean to be rude but please re-read the original post. Perhaps it would help if I clarify. We aren’t arguing about whether to have an open marriage, she understands I’m not okay with it. Open marriage isn’t really the issue (though I am interested in finding statistics on it.) What is it with people focusing in on just that part of the post?
Response:
"Boyce" <Bo…@Beeker.localhost> wrote in message
news:slrnc6c1pl.dfj.Boyce@ip68-96-127-74.lu.dl.cox.net… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> I started to post an autobiography but then thought I should start with > something shorter. > Basically it boils down to the fact that my wife and I view marriage > differently. I see it as a committment to an ideal that includes myself, > her, our families, our children and God. She sees marriage as a committment > to a person. > Basically we’re having problems because her mother is a nut, I’m stubborn > and self-rightous, she slept with my cousin, I did something really bad > when I was a young teenager and of course we never have enough money. > I guess what I’m looking for from this group is some different opinions on > what marriage is and should be and how to deal with it when you don’t see > it the same way as your spouse. > Additonally, I’m curious how many marriages survive what is called an "open > marriage." Basically my wife doesn’t feel guilty for the act of having sex > with someone else but only guilty for hurting me. We’re getting past that > but I would like to know whether swallowing my pride and letting her sleep > with other prople would doom us. I can’t say I like the idea, doubt I could > do it but would like to know whether I should even consider it.
In my experience, the majority of people who opt into *open marriage* eventually will opt back out. When they do, they will be pretty beaten up about it, even to the point of dissolving their relationship. Life in general and relationships in particular, rarely move in linear, predictable ways. Most commonly, relationships go along for a period and then produce a type of conflict which is a derivitive of the changes taking place in all of our lives. Those changes call for *actions of wisdom and character* from the participants. It is the quality of those actions which determine the quality of the overall relationship. By extension the duration of the relationship and positive nourishment derived from it are also a product of those seperate but very important moments of action. In other words, you must walk the walk when you talk the talk. If you say *I love you* you will be asked to prove it one day. How you do that says everything about about the level of *inner happiness* you will feel about yourself. >I see it as a committment to an ideal that includes myself, > her, our families, our children and God. She sees marriage as a committment > to a person.
In the example you have posed I would say that both positions are valid concepts. The challenge is to mesh them into one that would suit you both. I suspect however that a lot more has gone down between the both of you and that each of you has had big time issues that are never going to be resolved. These problems will nag at the both of you regardless of who either of you are with. The issues generate themselves because the both of you are not settled and you don’t understand the true nature of a loving relationship. Relationships however come in all sizes and shapes. Some are pretty foreign to me. the only rule that I am aware of is that it should be mutually beneficial. If it works, it works, no matter what anyone else thinks. Get professional help with your decision making in this matter.
Response:
Boyce wrote: > Basically it boils down to the fact that my wife and I view marriage > differently. I see it as a committment to an ideal that includes myself, > her, our families, our children and God. She sees marriage as a committment > to a person.
Okay. Here’s my question. Why is this difference causing problems? If the end result is the same, why would differing opinions/thoughts on the subject be a cause for problems? If I decided to never take another drink of alcohol because of possible health reasons or I didn’t like the way I got when I drank or because of the calories and my husband never drank for religious reasons, that shouldn’t be a cause for problems, right? So why is the fact that your basis for commitment is different from your wife’s basis of commitment causing you all problems? > Basically we’re having problems because her mother is a nut, I’m stubborn > and self-rightous, she slept with my cousin, I did something really bad > when I was a young teenager and of course we never have enough money.
Sounds like there’s more than just a different in commitment beliefs going on. In fact, sounds like it’s a red herring because, sheesh, there’s enough else going on in your life that that other thing is something that is pretty minor, right? > I guess what I’m looking for from this group is some different opinions on > what marriage is and should be and how to deal with it when you don’t see > it the same way as your spouse.
IMO, what different people believe marriage is or isn’t doesn’t really matter. What matters is what the two people who are married to each other believe. > Additonally, I’m curious how many marriages survive what is called an "open > marriage." Basically my wife doesn’t feel guilty for the act of having sex > with someone else but only guilty for hurting me. We’re getting past that > but I would like to know whether swallowing my pride and letting her sleep > with other prople would doom us. I can’t say I like the idea, doubt I could > do it but would like to know whether I should even consider it.
I hesitate to answer this part since you’ve already gotten a little upset when other people did. But, look, this is approximately 1/4 of your post. And the *only* part that wasn’t ambiguous and vague. Tracey
Response:
Boyce, I started to post an autobiography but then thought I should start with something shorter. Basically it boils down to the fact that my wife and I view marriage differently. I see it as a committment to an ideal that includes myself, her, our families, our children and God. She sees marriage as a committment to a person. I assume you have asked her what marriage means to her? Or is this just how you have viewed her behaviour because it isn’t how you would behaviour? If not ask! Listen to the whole reply. Basically we’re having problems because her mother is a nut, How does her mother being a nut cause you problems? Is she a nut all the time? In which circumstances? Invariable if a woman has issues she shall go running to her mother. How can you change your behave so she wont? Are you sometimes a nut with her mother? I’m stubborn and self-rightous, That’s a big think to carry! she slept with my cousin, I did something really bad when I was a young teenager and of course we never have enough money. Many ‘excuses’ for your situation. You have learnt from your past experiences. What do you want instead? I guess what I’m looking for from this group is some different opinions on what marriage is and should be and how to deal with it when you don’t see it the same way as your spouse. Additonally, I’m curious how many marriages survive what is called an "open marriage." Basically my wife doesn’t feel guilty for the act of having sex with someone else but only guilty for hurting me. Doesn’t feel guilt for having sex, just for hurting your feelings? Does she turn off her mind, before, during sex? I maybe wrong, yet for most women, there largest sex organ is their mind/brain.We’re getting past that but I would like to know whether swallowing my pride and letting her sleep with other prople would doom us. If you were getting past it all, you wouldn’t still think about it. Don’t swallow your pride, otherwise you shall only end up hurting yourself in the long run because you shall not have dealt with the situation and emotions connected with it. I can’t say I like the idea, doubt I coulddo it but would like to know whether I should even consider it. Many "open marriages" don’t survive. What needs, values of your wife’s are being fulfilled by her sleeping with other people? How can you meet her needs and values? Does she know what you need and value from/in a relationship/marriage? Where to go from here? The first thing is: Is your marriage worth saving? Are you prepared for it? Are you willing to change your behaviour? Work out and write down what you want. If you say..I don’t want.what do you want instead? Then talk to your wife and listen to her complete response before answering. DH
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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -In article <iJqdncKFLN4D0PvdRVn…@comcast.com>, urf wrote: > "Boyce" <Bo…@Beeker.localhost> wrote in message > news:slrnc6c1pl.dfj.Boyce@ip68-96-127-74.lu.dl.cox.net… -snip- > In my experience, the majority of people who opt into *open marriage* > eventually > will opt back out. When they do, they will be pretty beaten up about it, > even > to the point of dissolving their relationship. > Life in general and relationships in particular, rarely move in linear, > predictable > ways. Most commonly, relationships go along for a period and then produce > a type of conflict which is a derivitive of the changes taking place in all > of our lives. > Those changes call for *actions of wisdom and character* from the > participants. > It is the quality of those actions which determine the quality of the > overall relationship. > By extension the duration of the relationship and positive nourishment > derived from it > are also a product of those seperate but very important moments of action. > In other words, you must walk the walk when you talk the talk. > If you say *I love you* you will be asked to prove it one day. How you do > that says everything about about the level of *inner happiness* you will > feel about > yourself. -snip- > In the example you have posed I would say that both positions are valid > concepts. > The challenge is to mesh them into one that would suit you both. I suspect > however that > a lot more has gone down between the both of you and that each of you has > had > big time issues that are never going to be resolved. These problems will nag > at the both of you > regardless of who either of you are with. The issues generate themselves > because the both > of you are not settled and you don’t understand the true nature of a loving > relationship. > Relationships however come in all sizes and shapes. Some are pretty foreign > to me. the only > rule that I am aware of is that it should be mutually beneficial. If it > works, it works, > no matter what anyone else thinks. > Get professional help with your decision making in this matter.
Thank you for your detailed and thoughtful response.
Response:
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -In article <40664E60.9000…@aol.com>, Tracey wrote: > Boyce wrote: >> Basically it boils down to the fact that my wife and I view marriage >> differently. I see it as a committment to an ideal that includes myself, >> her, our families, our children and God. She sees marriage as a committment >> to a person. > Okay. Here’s my question. Why is this difference causing problems? > If the end result is the same, why would differing opinions/thoughts > on the subject be a cause for problems? If I decided to never take > another drink of alcohol because of possible health reasons or > I didn’t like the way I got when I drank or because of the calories > and my husband never drank for religious reasons, that shouldn’t > be a cause for problems, right? > So why is the fact that your basis for commitment is different from > your wife’s basis of commitment causing you all problems? >> Basically we’re having problems because her mother is a nut, I’m stubborn >> and self-rightous, she slept with my cousin, I did something really bad >> when I was a young teenager and of course we never have enough money. > Sounds like there’s more than just a different in commitment beliefs > going on. In fact, sounds like it’s a red herring because, sheesh, > there’s enough else going on in your life that that other thing is > something that is pretty minor, right? >> I guess what I’m looking for from this group is some different opinions on >> what marriage is and should be and how to deal with it when you don’t see >> it the same way as your spouse. > IMO, what different people believe marriage is or isn’t doesn’t really > matter. What matters is what the two people who are married to each > other believe. >> Additonally, I’m curious how many marriages survive what is called an "open >> marriage." Basically my wife doesn’t feel guilty for the act of having sex >> with someone else but only guilty for hurting me. We’re getting past that >> but I would like to know whether swallowing my pride and letting her sleep >> with other prople would doom us. I can’t say I like the idea, doubt I could >> do it but would like to know whether I should even consider it. > I hesitate to answer this part since you’ve already gotten a little > upset when other people did. But, look, this is approximately 1/4 of > your post. And the *only* part that wasn’t ambiguous and vague. > Tracey
Thanks for your care in responding Tracey, I appreciate it. Let me explain why the issue of what marriage is becomes central in our discussions. If your concept on marriage differs then your actions and feelings will differ according to circumstances as well. If it were just a semantic issue I’d have to agree that it wasn’t important. It becomes a little more important when I don’t see her feel any guilt for what I believe was something she significantly did wrong. Since her committment is only to me, as soon as I’m okay with her again then all is well. Since my own view differs I don’t feel happy about our relationship even though I may not feel personal hurt. She cannot promise that it won’t happen again because a committment to a person vanishes when you have a day that you don’t particularly care for that person. If you no longer love that person then the committment becomes something flimsey, even pointless. If you’re committed to an idea then you have less investment in the emotional aspects of the relationship (a frustration she has expressed with my view) as they pertain to two people. The other issues are probably overstated. They certainly add stress to the situation but we’ve dealt with stress before and probably will have to occassionally for the rest of our lives or at least until we outlive our families. We only have problems coping when we don’t have the same goals or values. I probably should have saved the open marriage thing for another post. It was something she expressed an interest in at one point and I can see an attractiveness to it. I don’t think it is revelant in our relationship or this discussion at this point. I guess I was actually hoping someone would have hard numbers and references for studies I could refer to.
Response:
"Boyce" <Bo…@Beeker.localhost> wrote in message
news:slrnc6fdon.rv.Boyce@ip68-96-127-74.lu.dl.cox.net… > It took some time but I’ve forgiven her for it. I still think about it > and we still talk about it but our relationship is good again. Most of > the time it isn’t an issue. She says that she wants to promise it will > never happen again but knows that if she ever does screw up that way > again and has promised not to then it WOULD potentially be a deal breaker.
Do you mean to say that she has some idea that it would be OK to cheat on you again as long as she never "promised" she wouldn’t? I’m not sure what universe she lives in, but it isn’t the same one I live in…It is obvious from your post that you don’t want her to do so, and have asked her not to. For me, that would make it a deal breaker, even if she never chanted the words "I promise not to screw around". > Committment is such a funny word. What does it really mean? Motivation > and resolution eventually come up when trying to figure that question and > that is related to views of an institution like and in particular this time > marriage.
Please correct me if I’m wrong, but I get the impression that you are trying very hard to justify her behavior ("she’s not behaving badly, she just views marriage differently than I do"). Sometimes people do this as an avoidance technique, so they don’t actually have to deal with the problem. (I’m a real pro at this myself). Could this be going on? Joy
Response:
"Boyce" <Bo…@Beeker.localhost> wrote in message
news:slrnc6e5ei.roa.Boyce@ip68-96-127-74.lu.dl.cox.net… > It becomes a little more important when I don’t see her feel > any guilt for what I believe was something she significantly did > wrong. Since her committment is only to me, as soon as I’m okay > with her again then all is well. Since my own view differs I don’t > feel happy about our relationship even though I may not feel personal > hurt. She cannot promise that it won’t happen again because > a committment to a person vanishes when you have a day that you don’t > particularly care for that person. If you no longer love that person > then the committment becomes something flimsey, even pointless. If > you’re committed to an idea then you have less investment in the > emotional aspects of the relationship (a frustration she has > expressed with my view) as they pertain to two people.
I wouldn’t say that her commitment is only to you, instead I would say that she doesn’t believe in commitment at all. Being committed to someone doesn’t mean that your responsibility evaporates the minute your feelings change. Basically your decision is to stay with someone who is only with you when she feels like it, knowing she will cheat on you again. If she doesn’t feel guilty for being the way she is, then don’t expect her to ever change. Now is this how you want to live your life?
Response:
"Boyce" <Bo…@Beeker.localhost> wrote in message
news:slrnc6gppc.8g6.Boyce@ip68-96-127-74.lu.dl.cox.net… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> In article <ZfU9c.21576$b_2.20…@bignews4.bellsouth.net>, Joy wrote: > > "Boyce" <Bo…@Beeker.localhost> wrote in message > > news:slrnc6fdon.rv.Boyce@ip68-96-127-74.lu.dl.cox.net… > >> It took some time but I’ve forgiven her for it. I still think about it > >> and we still talk about it but our relationship is good again. Most of > >> the time it isn’t an issue. She says that she wants to promise it will > >> never happen again but knows that if she ever does screw up that way > >> again and has promised not to then it WOULD potentially be a deal breaker. > > Do you mean to say that she has some idea that it would be OK to cheat on > > you again as long as she never "promised" she wouldn’t? I’m not sure what > > universe she lives in, but it isn’t the same one I live in…It is obvious > > from your post that you don’t want her to do so, and have asked her not to. > > For me, that would make it a deal breaker, even if she never chanted the > > words "I promise not to screw around". > No, but promising and failing is worse than not promising and failing > wouldn’t you say?
I think if she cheats on you again it doesn’t matter what words she’s said. Why are you defending her so much? > Or perhaps you think it is better to make a promise > you know you might not keep.
She *already* made a promise to you in her wedding vows. And broke it. What good would a new promise do? >I’m not particularly happy that she doesn’t > have the confidence in herself to make a promise but I’m more concerned > about the motivation than the words.
I don’t understand how cheating without making a specific "new" promise is not a dealbreaker, while cheating after making said promise is. (That’s what you said above, basically.) Do you want your wife to be faithful to you or not? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> >> Committment is such a funny word. What does it really mean? Motivation > >> and resolution eventually come up when trying to figure that question and > >> that is related to views of an institution like and in particular this > > time > >> marriage. > > Please correct me if I’m wrong, but I get the impression that you are trying > > very hard to justify her behavior ("she’s not behaving badly, she just views > > marriage differently than I do"). Sometimes people do this as an avoidance > > technique, so they don’t actually have to deal with the problem. (I’m a > > real pro at this myself). Could this be going on? > > Joy > No, my wife and I both know what she did was wrong and the reasons why it was > wrong. > It seems odd to me that you have tried so quickly to jump to my defense. More > odd that you seem so adamant that I should have a stronger negative reaction. > I’d had my negative reactions but am pretty much past that now.
I think a lot of people find your reaction and behavior puzzling, because you seem to be trying to wrap your head around your wife’s idea of what marriage is in order to justify how she treats you. You state in your first message: "Basically we’re having problems because her mother is a nut, I’m stubborn and self-rightous, she slept with my cousin, I did something really bad when I was a young teenager and of course we never have enough money." That’s a lot of issues right there. And yet, instead of discussing these issues specficially, and how they are causing your marriage to suffer NOW, you instead talk about different ideas of commitment and the definition of marriage. It looks like avoidance to me, too. The great thing about this group is that someone usually will call you on it. Why don’t you tell us a bit more about the issues you’re dealing with in your marriage, and what your *real* reason for coming here is? Cheryl
Response:
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -In article <40685735.3060…@aol.com>, Tracey wrote: > Boyce wrote: >> If your concept on marriage differs then your actions and feelings >> will differ according to circumstances as well. If it were just >> a semantic issue I’d have to agree that it wasn’t important. > I’ll agree that *sometimes* when your beliefs about marriage differs > then your actions will differ according to circumstances as well. > That’s why I asked the question. Because if it was just a semantic > issue, then I didn’t understand what was going on. Thanks for an- > swering my question. >> It becomes a little more important when I don’t see her feel >> any guilt for what I believe was something she significantly did >> wrong. Since her committment is only to me, as soon as I’m okay >> with her again then all is well. Since my own view differs I don’t >> feel happy about our relationship even though I may not feel personal >> hurt. She cannot promise that it won’t happen again because >> a committment to a person vanishes when you have a day that you don’t >> particularly care for that person. If you no longer love that person >> then the committment becomes something flimsey, even pointless. If >> you’re committed to an idea then you have less investment in the >> emotional aspects of the relationship (a frustration she has >> expressed with my view) as they pertain to two people. > I can see both sides of what you’re saying. Your frustration and > hers. For me, I’m not committed solely to my marriage and I’m not > committed solely to my husband. I’m committed to both. When you’re > (generic) committed to both, the commitment to the person gets you > over the rough spots in the marriage and gives incentive to work > the issue with the marriage out and vice versa. When there’s just > a commitment to one, it’s fairly common, IMO, that it ends in di- > vorce. It’s kinda like being a diet fanatic when it comes to making > sure you’re getting enough vitamin C and enough water but totally > ignoring the amount of saturated fats you’re eating. You’re still > going to end up with problems from the fats, even if your body is > getting enough water and vitamin C. > NOW, having said that, IMO, your wife is in justification mode. > Being committed to a person is not as transitory as she seems to > believe. I know of plenty of people who aren’t (and some can’t) > be married who are committed to the person they are with and that > commitment has been and is stronger than many commitments made to > a marriage. What your wife describes is not commitment at all. > And it’s not something that I, personally, could live with. What > an absolutely horrible way to live.
She doesn’t believe her committment is transitory, I worry. So your statement, "…is stronger than many commitments made to a marriage" actually reassures me. My wife isn’t particularly trying to justify her actions. I forgave her so the past isn’t really an issue. I’m looking for something that helps me deal with the future rather than the past. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->> The other issues are probably overstated. They certainly add >> stress to the situation but we’ve dealt with stress before >> and probably will have to occassionally for the rest of our >> lives or at least until we outlive our families. We only >> have problems coping when we don’t have the same goals or >> values. > Like most of us. During and immediately after my husband’s affair, > we had *horrible* disagreements and problems with outside issues > and never seemed to be able to get them resolved and, a couple of > times, they had us on the brink of divorce. The outside issues have > not went away and even reared their head in an important way in > the past six months or so. ‘Back then’, they had us ready to file > papers. Six months ago, divorce wasn’t thought of. We just went to > work on talking them out and getting to a good place for both of us. > As much as we try not to, when there are bigger issues going on within > our marriage, they seem to bleed over into other problems.
That does sound really rough and explains why you have such strong feelings on the issue and your perspective. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->> I probably should have saved the open marriage thing for >> another post. It was something she expressed an interest in >> at one point and I can see an attractiveness to it. I don’t >> think it is revelant in our relationship or this discussion at >> this point. I guess I was actually hoping someone would have >> hard numbers and references for studies I could refer to. > Don’t know if there have been any studies on this. It would seem a > little difficult to do because of the clandestine nature. We had a > person a while back in an open marriage who was quite happy with it…. > until her husband fell in love with one of the women he was being > ‘open’ with and left her. > IMnot-so-scientificO, most people are not hardwired to accept their > spouse being sexually intimate with other people and the possibility > of falling in love with someone you are sexually intimate with is > much higher. Some people in open marriages seem to not care if their > spouse also falls in love with their sexual partners, but, again IMO, > it’s pretty close to impossible for most people to adequately service > two (or more) ‘love relationships’ at the same time. Someone gets > short-changed. > Tracey
That seems a reasonable conclusion to me. Still looking for studies but appreciate the logic.
Response:
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -In article <ZfU9c.21576$b_2.20…@bignews4.bellsouth.net>, Joy wrote: > "Boyce" <Bo…@Beeker.localhost> wrote in message > news:slrnc6fdon.rv.Boyce@ip68-96-127-74.lu.dl.cox.net… >> It took some time but I’ve forgiven her for it. I still think about it >> and we still talk about it but our relationship is good again. Most of >> the time it isn’t an issue. She says that she wants to promise it will >> never happen again but knows that if she ever does screw up that way >> again and has promised not to then it WOULD potentially be a deal breaker. > Do you mean to say that she has some idea that it would be OK to cheat on > you again as long as she never "promised" she wouldn’t? I’m not sure what > universe she lives in, but it isn’t the same one I live in…It is obvious > from your post that you don’t want her to do so, and have asked her not to. > For me, that would make it a deal breaker, even if she never chanted the > words "I promise not to screw around".
No, but promising and failing is worse than not promising and failing wouldn’t you say? Or perhaps you think it is better to make a promise you know you might not keep. I’m not particularly happy that she doesn’t have the confidence in herself to make a promise but I’m more concerned about the motivation than the words. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->> Committment is such a funny word. What does it really mean? Motivation >> and resolution eventually come up when trying to figure that question and >> that is related to views of an institution like and in particular this > time >> marriage. > Please correct me if I’m wrong, but I get the impression that you are trying > very hard to justify her behavior ("she’s not behaving badly, she just views > marriage differently than I do"). Sometimes people do this as an avoidance > technique, so they don’t actually have to deal with the problem. (I’m a > real pro at this myself). Could this be going on? > Joy
No, my wife and I both know what she did was wrong and the reasons why it was wrong. It seems odd to me that you have tried so quickly to jump to my defense. More odd that you seem so adamant that I should have a stronger negative reaction. I’d had my negative reactions but am pretty much past that now. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –
Response:
Boyce wrote: > If your concept on marriage differs then your actions and feelings > will differ according to circumstances as well. If it were just > a semantic issue I’d have to agree that it wasn’t important.
I’ll agree that *sometimes* when your beliefs about marriage differs then your actions will differ according to circumstances as well. That’s why I asked the question. Because if it was just a semantic issue, then I didn’t understand what was going on. Thanks for an- swering my question. > It becomes a little more important when I don’t see her feel > any guilt for what I believe was something she significantly did > wrong. Since her committment is only to me, as soon as I’m okay > with her again then all is well. Since my own view differs I don’t > feel happy about our relationship even though I may not feel personal > hurt. She cannot promise that it won’t happen again because > a committment to a person vanishes when you have a day that you don’t > particularly care for that person. If you no longer love that person > then the committment becomes something flimsey, even pointless. If > you’re committed to an idea then you have less investment in the > emotional aspects of the relationship (a frustration she has > expressed with my view) as they pertain to two people.
I can see both sides of what you’re saying. Your frustration and hers. For me, I’m not committed solely to my marriage and I’m not committed solely to my husband. I’m committed to both. When you’re (generic) committed to both, the commitment to the person gets you over the rough spots in the marriage and gives incentive to work the issue with the marriage out and vice versa. When there’s just a commitment to one, it’s fairly common, IMO, that it ends in di- vorce. It’s kinda like being a diet fanatic when it comes to making sure you’re getting enough vitamin C and enough water but totally ignoring the amount of saturated fats you’re eating. You’re still going to end up with problems from the fats, even if your body is getting enough water and vitamin C. NOW, having said that, IMO, your wife is in justification mode. Being committed to a person is not as transitory as she seems to believe. I know of plenty of people who aren’t (and some can’t) be married who are committed to the person they are with and that commitment has been and is stronger than many commitments made to a marriage. What your wife describes is not commitment at all. And it’s not something that I, personally, could live with. What an absolutely horrible way to live. > The other issues are probably overstated. They certainly add > stress to the situation but we’ve dealt with stress before > and probably will have to occassionally for the rest of our > lives or at least until we outlive our families. We only > have problems coping when we don’t have the same goals or > values.
Like most of us. During and immediately after my husband’s affair, we had *horrible* disagreements and problems with outside issues and never seemed to be able to get them resolved and, a couple of times, they had us on the brink of divorce. The outside issues have not went away and even reared their head in an important way in the past six months or so. ‘Back then’, they had us ready to file papers. Six months ago, divorce wasn’t thought of. We just went to work on talking them out and getting to a good place for both of us. As much as we try not to, when there are bigger issues going on within our marriage, they seem to bleed over into other problems. > I probably should have saved the open marriage thing for > another post. It was something she expressed an interest in > at one point and I can see an attractiveness to it. I don’t > think it is revelant in our relationship or this discussion at > this point. I guess I was actually hoping someone would have > hard numbers and references for studies I could refer to.
Don’t know if there have been any studies on this. It would seem a little difficult to do because of the clandestine nature. We had a person a while back in an open marriage who was quite happy with it…. until her husband fell in love with one of the women he was being ‘open’ with and left her. IMnot-so-scientificO, most people are not hardwired to accept their spouse being sexually intimate with other people and the possibility of falling in love with someone you are sexually intimate with is much higher. Some people in open marriages seem to not care if their spouse also falls in love with their sexual partners, but, again IMO, it’s pretty close to impossible for most people to adequately service two (or more) ‘love relationships’ at the same time. Someone gets short-changed. Tracey
Response:
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -In article <jPG9c.25313$fl6.11…@bignews1.bellsouth.net>, Joy wrote: > "Boyce" <Bo…@Beeker.localhost> wrote in message > news:slrnc6e5ei.roa.Boyce@ip68-96-127-74.lu.dl.cox.net… >> Thanks for your care in responding Tracey, I appreciate it. >> Let me explain why the issue of what marriage is becomes central >> in our discussions. >> If your concept on marriage differs then your actions and feelings >> will differ according to circumstances as well. If it were just >> a semantic issue I’d have to agree that it wasn’t important. >> It becomes a little more important when I don’t see her feel >> any guilt for what I believe was something she significantly did >> wrong. > Are you referring to the part where she slept with your cousin?
Not just that but that is pretty high on the list. > Since her committment is only to me, as soon as I’m okay >> with her again then all is well. > She’d have to be pretty presumptuous to assume that you WOULD be OK with her > again after an escape like that. Some people consider sleeping around – > especially in the absence of any reason to think it won’t happen again – to > be a dealbreaker. It is up to you whether or not you see it that way, but > that is your choice to make.
It took some time but I’ve forgiven her for it. I still think about it and we still talk about it but our relationship is good again. Most of the time it isn’t an issue. She says that she wants to promise it will never happen again but knows that if she ever does screw up that way again and has promised not to then it WOULD potentially be a deal breaker. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Since my own view differs I don’t >> feel happy about our relationship even though I may not feel personal >> hurt. She cannot promise that it won’t happen again because >> a committment to a person vanishes when you have a day that you don’t >> particularly care for that person. If you no longer love that person >> then the committment becomes something flimsey, even pointless. If >> you’re committed to an idea then you have less investment in the >> emotional aspects of the relationship (a frustration she has >> expressed with my view) as they pertain to two people. > If your concern is that she has cheated on you once, and won’t commit to not > cheating again, well, that is a very legitimate concern. You are right to > be concerned. IMO, the key thing is that she is an unrepentant cheater. > Does it really matter whether or not her cheating stems from a different > view of marriage? I don’t think so. People use all kinds of convoluted > logic to justify cheating, and this might be a little more creative than > some I’ve heard – but creative excuses do not justify bad behavior.
Committment is such a funny word. What does it really mean? Motivation and resolution eventually come up when trying to figure that question and that is related to views of an institution like and in particular this time marriage. >> I probably should have saved the open marriage thing for >> another post. It was something she expressed an interest in >> at one point and I can see an attractiveness to it. I don’t >> think it is revelant in our relationship or this discussion at >> this point. > To me it sounds relevant, because of the cheating issue. You seem to have > concerns because she won’t say she won’t do it again. Well, an open > marriage doesn’t change that behavior, just legitimizes it. It sounds like > another avenue for her to have her cake and eat it too, to me.
Humm. Good point and thanks for stating it so clearly. I don’t think I had thought of it that way before. > Joy
Thank you for your thoughtful reply Joy.
Response:
"Boyce" <Bo…@Beeker.localhost> wrote in message
news:slrnc6e5ei.roa.Boyce@ip68-96-127-74.lu.dl.cox.net… > Thanks for your care in responding Tracey, I appreciate it. > Let me explain why the issue of what marriage is becomes central > in our discussions. > If your concept on marriage differs then your actions and feelings > will differ according to circumstances as well. If it were just > a semantic issue I’d have to agree that it wasn’t important. > It becomes a little more important when I don’t see her feel > any guilt for what I believe was something she significantly did > wrong.
Are you referring to the part where she slept with your cousin? Since her committment is only to me, as soon as I’m okay > with her again then all is well.
She’d have to be pretty presumptuous to assume that you WOULD be OK with her again after an escape like that. Some people consider sleeping around – especially in the absence of any reason to think it won’t happen again – to be a dealbreaker. It is up to you whether or not you see it that way, but that is your choice to make. Since my own view differs I don’t > feel happy about our relationship even though I may not feel personal > hurt. She cannot promise that it won’t happen again because > a committment to a person vanishes when you have a day that you don’t > particularly care for that person. If you no longer love that person > then the committment becomes something flimsey, even pointless. If > you’re committed to an idea then you have less investment in the > emotional aspects of the relationship (a frustration she has > expressed with my view) as they pertain to two people.
If your concern is that she has cheated on you once, and won’t commit to not cheating again, well, that is a very legitimate concern. You are right to be concerned. IMO, the key thing is that she is an unrepentant cheater. Does it really matter whether or not her cheating stems from a different view of marriage? I don’t think so. People use all kinds of convoluted logic to justify cheating, and this might be a little more creative than some I’ve heard – but creative excuses do not justify bad behavior. > I probably should have saved the open marriage thing for > another post. It was something she expressed an interest in > at one point and I can see an attractiveness to it. I don’t > think it is revelant in our relationship or this discussion at > this point.
To me it sounds relevant, because of the cheating issue. You seem to have concerns because she won’t say she won’t do it again. Well, an open marriage doesn’t change that behavior, just legitimizes it. It sounds like another avenue for her to have her cake and eat it too, to me. Joy
Response:
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -In article <_2D9c.638$gK5….@newsfe3-win.server.ntli.net>, DH wrote: > Boyce, > I started to post an autobiography but then thought I should start with > something shorter. > Basically it boils down to the fact that my wife and I view marriage > differently. I see it as a committment to an ideal that includes myself, > her, our families, our children and God. She sees marriage as a committment > to a person. I assume you have asked her what marriage means to her? Or is > this just how you have viewed her behaviour because it isn’t how you would > behaviour? If not ask! Listen to the whole reply. > Basically we’re having problems because her mother is a nut, How does her > mother being a nut cause you problems? Is she a nut all the time? In which > circumstances? Invariable if a woman has issues she shall go running to her > mother. How can you change your behave so she wont? Are you sometimes a nut > with her mother? > I’m stubborn and self-rightous, That’s a big think to carry! she slept with > my cousin, I did something really bad when I was a young teenager and of > course we never have enough money. Many ‘excuses’ for your situation. You > have learnt from your past experiences. What do you want instead? I guess > what I’m looking for from this group is some different opinions on what > marriage is and should be and how to deal with it when you don’t see it the > same way as your spouse. > Additonally, I’m curious how many marriages survive what is called an "open > marriage." Basically my wife doesn’t feel guilty for the act of having sex > with someone else but only guilty for hurting me. Doesn’t feel guilt for > having sex, just for hurting your feelings? Does she turn off her mind, > before, during sex? I maybe wrong, yet for most women, there largest sex > organ is their mind/brain.We’re getting past that but I would like to know > whether swallowing my pride and letting her sleep with other prople would > doom us. If you were getting past it all, you wouldn’t still think about it. > Don’t swallow your pride, otherwise you shall only end up hurting yourself > in the long run because you shall not have dealt with the situation and > emotions connected with it. I can’t say I like the idea, doubt I coulddo it > but would like to know whether I should even consider it. Many "open > marriages" don’t survive. What needs, values of your wife’s are being > fulfilled by her sleeping with other people? How can you meet her needs and > values? Does she know what you need and value from/in a > relationship/marriage? > Where to go from here? The first thing is: Is your marriage worth saving? > Are you prepared for it? Are you willing to change your behaviour? Work out > and write down what you want. If you say..I don’t want.what do you want > instead? Then talk to your wife and listen to her complete response before > answering. > DH
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Jess 